LOTR, The Matrix, and the Star Wars PT: Which trilogy will stand the test of time?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by ElfStar, Oct 7, 2002.

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  1. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    Quixotic Sith-- What executive ever cuts his number one ratings earner??
  2. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    gds-

    You mean the Sanctuary?

    In all seriousness, this thread had a limited lifespan, and I gave my word that it would be closed when it got beyond the scope of the forum. Since we're discussing AOTC and Reloaded (among many other non-TPM-specific things), we've moved well beyond the essential premise of this thread, so it's time. I hate to see popular threads go, but it's now inappropriate for this forum.
  3. Jedi-Monkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2002
    star 4
    gez

    Y'know, I have spent far too many posts replying to everything you said, because I hate taking small snippets of paragraphs and removing them from their original context. But the only thing that has become painfully clear is that you WANT to believe the R rating works. As I said earlier, I do believe that even if I had a signed note from God saying it was worthless, you would still doubt it. Well, that is your choice, and I'll leave you alone with your decision now. You haven't managed to post any proof to refute what I have said, resorting instead to hearsay and your opinions. You say I presented no proof, I say neither did you. If you wanna feel like you've 'won' something here, or you want to think I haven't made my point, then please, go right ahead. If you still want to believe the R rating means something, then go right ahead. I, and many other people, know that it doen't mean anything. Because whether kids buy tickets, or sneak in, they are still seeing the R rating, and unless theaters enforce it all the time, then it will never mean anything.

    Actually JW00, that example doesn't mean any more than any other. Why are people trying to use examples other than the one we were discussing? I'm not talking about George Lucas' attempts to stop piracy, I am talking about the R rating. Can't anyone say anything about that without trying to compare it to something else? Although why, I don't even know anymore. It has been shown over and over again that it doesn't work. There have been many examples given by different people, but some still want to cling to the idea that it stops teens from getting in, and that's why Reloaded didn't make more money, and that's also the excuse being used for the HUGE dropoffs every week. I don't care anymore. If people want to believe it still works, then fine. If people want to believe that's why Reloaded isn't doing as well as some thought it should, then fine. It's not my problem anymore. I give up. I still believe it's meaningless, because I've seen it with my own eyes, and that is far more convincing than someone telling me it has to work because the studio tries to lower the rating. And I know I'm not the only person who knows it, so if some people want to think it means something, well that's their choice. More power to 'em.
  4. appleseed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2002
    star 4
    I'd personally like to see this topic kept open. It seems to be the best place for an off-topic topic. I mean, the Basher's Sanctuary isn't really so much about TPM as it is just an all-purpose whining ground. People are gonna compare SW to other series somewhere, it might as well be here.
  5. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    By the way, TRUE LIES 2 is still go. I read it from Arnold himself. Its just that it is being re-written so that it wont be about terrorism.
  6. appleseed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2002
    star 4
  7. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    If this thread DOES get restarted in SWC, I wonder what'll happen...

    I'm guessing there'll be a lot more support for SW, a bunch of "all three!!!!! I love them all!!!!!!"... I dunno.

    I wonder if thirty-forty years from now, we'll look back, remember this thread and shout "Ah, ****! _______ was right!"



    Rick McCallum loves you!
  8. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I just don't see how any of these 3 sagas won't be remembered.

    No doubt, but the question is, how fondly and widely will each be remembered?

    Going on box office alone, I'd say The Matrix series will mostly likely be seen as a niche success and down the road will be remembered by a much smaller segment of the population than either Star Wars or Peter Jackson's The Lord Of The Rings, similiar to how Back to the Future and the Alien films are remembered today.

    In my opinion, Star Wars has the clear advantage since it is the only one of the three that can be enjoyed by children and adults. The other franchises, especially The Matrix, skew towards a much older audience limiting their mass appeal. To put it another way, Star Wars is the only franchise that kids can grow up with while they most likely won't discover the other two until they're quite a bit older. Never underestimate the power of childhood nostalgia.
  9. AdamBertocci Manager

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    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    similiar to how Back to the Future and the Alien films are remembered today.

    Which, to Matrix's credit, is no small achievement either!



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  10. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    ^^^
    My point is, The Matrix series clearly has the markings of a cult classic, and just as those who weren't around during the release of the Back to the Future films aren't familiar with the series, I have a feeling that it'll be the same with The Matrix.

    Not knocking The Matrix, but that's just how I see it.
  11. spring_warm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2003
    star 2
    Id really believe that anlogy if the third one sucks
  12. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    Yeah Star Wars will last a long time as a franchise, but thanks to the OT for the most part. With fandom waning and splitting right now (not saying it's 50/50, but it's definitely happening) the reason many are sticking with it is because of the fond memories of the OT;

    Had the OT never existed, the PT would be even less popular than it is now. Unless you believe otherwise, I'd like to see those viewpoints.
  13. AdamBertocci Manager

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    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    With fandom waning and splitting right now (not saying it's 50/50, but it's definitely happening)

    I'd say 80/20 (with the 20 being the bitter prequel-haters), and that's giving the haters the benefit of the doubt.


    EDIT: And even if the community HAD been so starkly divided... what would the fan community be like if there'd been no prequels? We wouldn't have big message boards, FanForces, huge booths at conventions... Without the prequels to bring SW back into public focus and (yes!) marketability, SW fandom would be just the same ten guys dressed like stormtroopers at a convention.
    And that's not a dig at SW. It's just that you need something new to sustain a hardcore fan base. The LOTR books were popular for years, but the movies brought in new public interest, new fans and new opportunities for community. Same principle.
    Even if you didn't like the prequels... would you prefer for the Star Wars 'community' to be the way it was back in, say, '95?


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  14. sdj Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 4
    the reason many are sticking with it is because of the fond memories of the OT;


    Anyone who does this is a fool. You have the OT movies. You don't have to include the PT into your own mental cannon of the first 3 and if you don't like the new films you shouldn't think you are bound to watch them because of the old films. You CAN take one film as it's own and not enjoy the rest. The Matrix Reloaded will have no effect on the original because you can watch one without the other. You can be a fan of one and not the other but the whole sticking around and complaining thing is ridiculous.
  15. AdamBertocci Manager

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    star 7
    I agree. If you can do it with the EU books, you can do it with the movies. (If you like EU but not the prequels, find your own analogy.)

    Do you think there's that many Jaws fans out there who claim that Jaws 2, 3, 4 ... 50,591 are "canon"?

    I am a huge Exorcist fan -- one of my favorite books, and my 10th favorite movie ever (Star Wars is "only" second). I have never seen Exorcist II and do not intend to. But I don't sit around cursing the day that it was made.

    I tried raising points about "just disregard the sequels and move them off" in a thread here about Superman, but Quix stepped in and banished the thread to the land of wind and ghosts.



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  16. topgoalscorer_no11 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2001
    star 3
    The Matrix Reloaded is very similar to TPM.

    The characters are shallow, the dialogue is risible, cod philosophy replaces dull politics, yet both films are redeemed by the essence of the story and fantastic SFX.

    But Keanu Reeves is a worse actor than Jake Lloyd could ever hope to be.
  17. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    the reason many are sticking with it is because of the fond memories of the OT

    Or possibly it's because many of us are genuinelly fond of the prequels.
  18. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    not saying it's 50/50, but it's definitely happening

    Here perhaps.
    I know a lot of SW fans, and among us it's more like 0/100 in the OT's favor.
  19. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Funny cuz among all my friends who like Star Wars, all of us like the newer films as well. Sure we all have our favorites, but we all like the newer films. I guess one sees what they want to see. Or like minds tend to gravitate towards each other.

    Don't pretend that the majority of SW fans don't like the new films, Rees Yees. I know you are smarter than that.

  20. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I know a lot of SW fans, and among us it's more like 0/100 in the OT's favor.

    And I know a lot who love the prequels. What's your point?
  21. AdamBertocci Manager

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    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    Silly Durwood, I thought we established that those people only love the prequels because of fond memories of the OT, because they're fooling themselves or because Lucas bought them. [face_laugh]


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  22. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "Anyone who does this is a fool. You have the OT movies. You don't have to include the PT into your own mental cannon of the first 3 and if you don't like the new films you shouldn't think you are bound to watch them because of the old films."

    another excellent reason to boycott episode III!
  23. DarthCartman1 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2003
    "But Keanu Reeves is a worse actor than Jake Lloyd could ever hope to be"

    I hope this is some sort of joke. I will agree that Reeves is not the best actor out there, but this is insulting. I mean you can not even comapre the two. Just wanted to know if your joking or not, I do not really wan to make a big deal out of it.
  24. AdamBertocci Manager

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    star 7
    I too find Keanu Reeves an inferior actor to Jake Lloyd.

    In "The Matrix" he was bad enough, but "Much Ado About Nothing" is unforgivable. You wanna see wooden, look there. At least Jake gives the impression he's trying.


    Rick McCallum loves you!
  25. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    Don't pretend that the majority of SW fans don't like the new films, Rees Yees. I know you are smarter than that.

    I thank you for the compliment.
    However, I do seriously question this. Why is it that I never meet ONE person who has something positive to say about the films? Perhaps they aren't Star Wars fans "enough" (since you mention the majority of fans specifically)
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