LOTR, The Matrix, and the Star Wars PT: Which trilogy will stand the test of time?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by ElfStar, Oct 7, 2002.

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  1. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    I think a better comparison for the Matrix and it's likelyhood of being seen as dated is Blade Runner. Not as a comparison of the two films quality, but how they are both stylish and innovative sci-fi movies. I think Blade Runner holds up very well, despite being often imitated(although not as blatantly as the Matrix has been). And Blade Runner was just one movie. The Matrix movies are going to be very big next year, and IMO, not just financially speaking, so I don't see them fading into obscurity anytime soon.

    I'm not a big LOTR fan, but that's because I don't like the genre. Just personal taste on this one really. But at the same time, I find the high quality of the filmmaking to be practically undeniable, and the story has already passed the test of time, so it's status as a classic seems set.

    The PT won't be forgotten, if for nothing else than the Star Wars name. The question is - how will it be remembered? I don't think any of us can answer that one unequivocally. Audiences weren't all over The Wizard of Oz, or Casablanca, or It's a Wonderful Life, but they're definite classics, while it's common for popular box office champs to age badly.

    EDIT : Personally, I think it could go either way for the PT.


    Also, I'd just like to say that I agree with Rebel Scumb's comparison of TPM and AOTC. My thoughts almost exactly on the feel and quality differences between the two.
  2. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    To be fair, I think Lucas thought he was addressing the needs of plot in AOTC by following Obi-wan's journey to unravel the mystery behind Padme's assassination attempt. Unfortunately, Lucas didn't bother to make Obi-wan interesting enough or offer any compelling reasons why we should care about him. The intent is there, but he botched it. I just don't see how the PT can stand up to the OT over time, or to LOTR for that matter. Time isn't going to make the story more appealing or emotionally satisfying. Time isn't going to make the acting look better or improve the quality of the script.
  3. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    I agree that GL tried to answer critics in the movie. To see AOTC, you have to know he was trying to address some of the critique of TPM.
  4. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "Plato meets Buadrillard meets Kendall Thomas"

    Plato would be rolling in his grave. I agree there is a lot of philosophical potential, but it only really scratches the surface. Hence: pseudo-philosophy.

    Again I'm not bashing the matrix, but its not plato by any stretch.
  5. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    Okay Rebel-- how does it scratch the surface of the Allegory of the cave? It is a complete retelling of it! What element of the allegory is not presented in the film. You have the cave, the men who think they are shadows, the ones who show them another way of living, the resistance of the truth and the clinging to the ignorance of the world one has always known. Please, clue me in on where they failed to embody Plato's exact sentiments???
  6. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    Yes, and then they have a 45 mintue gun/marital arts battle. I'm not denying that the cave analogy, but it doesn't do a whole lot to explore and discuss this. And I don't think it should, but I'd hardly call it a philosophical movie. when I think philosophical I think: Waking Life, Baraka, or at the very least, Donnie Darko.

    I don't want to argue, I like th matrix lets leave it at that.
  7. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    Yes, and then they have a 45 mintue gun/marital arts battle.

    How does the gun fight and martial arts detract from the symbolic use of Plato's allegory??? It's a symbol, it does not have to be a movie about a cave to be have the symbolism of the allegory. Come on man...

    I'm not denying that the cave analogy, but it doesn't do a whole lot to explore and discuss this.

    It's the plot of the movie. Moprheus explains to Neo that the world as he knows it is just a virtual creation. A lie pulled over his eyes. The entire human population of "coppertops" are the men in the cave. Their lives in the Matrix are the shadows. Morpehus and the rebels, show the light and the way of the "real world", Neo at first, does not even believe it to be possible. Morpheus tells Neo that most plugged in people will not believe the truth about the matrix and will fight to defend it. Cypher, someone who has been removed from the cave and shown his real self in the light, tries to get back in the Matrix. He even says "ignorance is bliss." I think the concept is very deeply explored.

    but I'd hardly call it a philosophical movie. when I think philosophical I think: Waking Life, Baraka, or at the very least, Donnie Darko.

    I won't deny the other movies you mention, but the Matrix is clearly a very philosophical movie. Plato is just one example. Like I said there is also allusions and references to Baudrillard, Kendall Thomas, Kant and of course various religions.

    I don't want to argue, I like th matrix lets leave it at that.

    I don't want to argue either, but if you saw the Matrix and said "Plato would roll over in his grave!" then this was worth explaining to you.
  8. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    Fair enough. To me it sheapens platos message to resolve everything with carnage, but your points are well presented as well, I take back by grave rolling comment.
  9. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    I think we can have a difference of opinion without it turning into a fight.

    I wouldn't primarily classify The Matrix as a "philosophical movie". But if somebody asked me what kind of a movie the Star Wars films were, or LOTR for that matter, I wouldn't say "philosophical" to those either. But that doesn't mean they can't contain meaningful philosophical ideas, or elements. You can't dismiss The Matrix soley on the evidence that it features a 45 minute action sequence. Especially when there's character development going on during the sequence in question. I'm not saying that it's the deepest movie ever made, but I wouldn't call it pseudo-philosophy either. The term "pseudo" implies fake, and whether you like the movie or not, I think the intent of placing the philosophical elements, and/or the religious allegory, in the film are meaningful.
  10. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    Fair enough.

    I guess it jsut bugs me when I'm trying to make a point in philosophy class and some idiot acts like he's Palto reincarnate and everyone thinks he's some genius when all he's really doing is rewording scenes from the matrix. If I have to listen another dolt tell me to free my mind I'm goign to puke. I guess its the little bit of knowledge being dangerous syndrome.
  11. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    Dude...free your mind. :cool:
  12. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    It's worse when they actually try to do the Socrates/Days of Our Lives scene from Bill & Ted. And one guy does every semester. :(
  13. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    my class is so out of whack its incredible. My teacher tried to tell us that all the ghosts in sixth sense are just halucinations that hte kid has because his mom his brutally abusive to him. 90% of the class was jsut eatting it up. I fear for the world.
  14. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    So Bruce Willis was a hallucination? Interesting...
  15. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    Its all so terribly deep.

    Now why a halluciantion got his own scenes and subplot I'm not sure.

    I'm curious, what does everyone have on their dvd/vhs shelf? I want to get a sense of the tastes in films of the people in the room.
  16. jaja7799 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2002
    star 1
    Anything form Caddyshack to Donnie Darko to even The Phantom Menace, and even that accursed(sp) film FOTR!(Goodness no not that abomination)
  17. Darth Euro Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 1999
    star 4
    Rebel Scumb, can we please try to keep this thread somewhat on track??? Discossing our video/DVD collections can be done elsewhere.
  18. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
  19. jaja7799 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2002
    star 1
    What I do not get is why a lot of people say that the Matrix will not stand the test of time because it leans on special effects for most of its intrigue. I think at least the second movie should come out to at least gauge what the trilgoy as a whole has to offer.

    But what do I know, I'm just a droid
  20. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    Thank you, Darth Euro. You put it more succintly than I could.
  21. ElfStar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 4
    I think the argument against the Matrix has more to do with the very 90's feel to the whole film- the black leather outfits, the shades, the punk rock music. I have a feeling the Matrix is going to become a sort of cult classic. Sort of like some of those old 70's sci-fi films, which have an engaging story, but are dated by a distictly 70s look, which prevents it from truly being "timeless" in all sense of the word. If you want to see what I'm talknig about, watch the old Star Trek tv series. Good stories, but the style is extremely dated.

    The SW films were fortunate enough to avoid this, barring one or two haircuts.
  22. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    yeah I agree, I thinkt he blade runner analogy is a good one though. If matrix 2 pulls and ESB though, then I might change my tune. I htinkt he other key factor were ignorring is that it isnt accessable to kids.

    SW, harry potter and even LOTR to some extent have that going for them, but Matrix is a very teenagery- mid 20s kinda flick, which is good, but I find most enduring classics are films for the whole family. Something you can grow up with.
  23. Emos-Edud Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2002
    star 4
    I believe that Ep 3 will fuse the PT with the OT so well that, in the future, they will be regarded as one series.

    LOTR will probably be around for a long time, but that does not mean we won't see any other versions. Hollywood has a long history of remaking "perfect" films.

    "The Matrix" will probably lose much steam in the next decade. It is too contemporary, the character and location nomenclature is obvious and for a film so intent on being "real" the science is laughable. Cronenberg did it better with "eXistenZ." And come on, Carpenter did the sci-fi Allegory of the Cave with "They Live."


    Some other great trilogies...

    Alien 1-3:
    These films examine Ripley and her changing relationship to her enemy and her loved ones. What is particularly interesting is that the audience is in the same position as Ripley. Our point of view is the same as hers, in that when she is in a cryo-tube, we are between films. I'm not sure why I think that is so cool.

    Halloween 1,2,4:
    Of course 1 is the best, but 2 picks up the action on the same night. While 3 is a good film, it has nothing to do with the Michael Meyers character so watch it some other time. 4 brings the boogeyman back and provides a great ending to that monster and to the series.

    Nightmare on Elm Street 1,3,7
    These select films from the series all feature the character Nancy. When watched in order they become more than just the further adventures of Freddy Krueger. They actually become a three-film story (with a beginning, a middle and an end) that details the personal war between a monster and an unlucky woman.
  24. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    The Matrix was a film for people who like to wank over leather, guns and hi-tec gadgets - nothing more.
    To claim that film is superior to any Star Wars film (even The Crappy Menace) is sacriligious!
    Bah! Who cares?
  25. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    I believe that Ep 3 will fuse the PT with the OT so well that, in the future, they will be regarded as one series.

    For the people in the future who are casual fans, the saga will be "Star Wars" For people who are actually into the movies, there will always be an OT and a PT. It's just unavoidable. There is such an incredible difference in the movies from a technical and dramatic standpoint, I don't see any fusion occurring any time soon.

    LOTR will probably be around for a long time, but that does not mean we won't see any other versions. Hollywood has a long history of remaking "perfect" films.

    I can't see a remake being done for a very long time. The scale of these movies is incredible. And I think that is another advantage of LOTR over the PT. I like using real life sets! Is the Earth going someplace? There are still amazing locales for film shoots and Jackson did a great job of scouting them. I have to say the same for Crouching Tiger, which used the Gobi Desert in one of its main scenes. But getting back to LOTR, it was such a massive undertaking I don't see someone getting greenlit to just remake it anytime soon.

    Now as for comics and cartoons, I think that is coming right down the pipe.

    "The Matrix" will probably lose much steam in the next decade. It is too contemporary, the character and location nomenclature is obvious and for a film so intent on being "real" the science is laughable. Cronenberg did it better with "eXistenZ." And come on, Carpenter did the sci-fi Allegory of the Cave with "They Live."

    Again, I don't know why people doubt how immensely popular these films are. And I think a lot of kids have actually seen the movie. Again, 20 million hits in a week??!? That's crazy. I think when it comes out in May, there will be matrix parties and people dressed in their very 90s leather outfits and shades outside of the theaters. Existenze was good, as was 13th floor, but seriously, they are not even remotely on the level of the Matrix. And for both sagas (Matrix and LOTR), the sequel will be play a HUGE role in its success over the long run. Will the Matrix sequel be great? Who knows? But if it can match the impact and quality of the original then I think the trilogy will be established as an all-time great. Same goes for TTT but it has such a built in audience and following due to it being a book, the risks of failure are much less.

    Nightmare on Elm Street 1,3,7
    These select films from the series all feature the character Nancy. When watched in order they become more than just the further adventures of Freddy Krueger. They actually become a three-film story (with a beginning, a middle and an end) that details the personal war between a monster and an unlucky woman.

    Nightmare is a classic series! 1 and 3 were horror at their best. But part 7 was pretty lame. Sorry, I love Nancy and all, but it felt more like a cheap TV show then a movie. It seemed more like a money maker than anything. Remember Part 6, "Freddy's Dead"?? I thought that was a good attempt to turn the series back to its roots, but it still came up a little empty. I think the problem with horror is that we are so densitized at this point, those movies have just lost their effect.

    Do u remember the nightmare video game for nintendo? They also had a Freddy TV show for a while too. They really milked this guy.

    NOES part 4 was not bad either. The Dream Master. That's where Freddy had his own dojo scene, remember? And he was trying to get that girl Alice pregnant? Man, I could talk about this series forever.
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