LOTR, The Matrix, and the Star Wars PT: Which trilogy will stand the test of time?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by ElfStar, Oct 7, 2002.

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  1. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    You go, homey!

    I'm hip.
  2. Ultimate Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2000
    star 3
    "Did HP sell more toys and impact kids more than FOTR? Without a question. But how does this lead to a movie (or a set of movies) standing the test of time, as the thread questions?"

    The arguement I was in was cultural impact and various stuff related to that. And that isn't just a critical reaction or box office arguement. I made the case that how could be LOTR be having this great impact when Harry Potter was knocking it around all across the board especially in video/DVD sales and at the box office around the world. People's attention clearly wasn't focused on LOTR to begin with. Plus the fact that Harry Potter was already a legitimate cultural phenomenon on par with Star Wars before the movies. LOTR, while big and successful, wasn't coming to that same level Potter was.

    "One of your own examples of something that had a huge impact on kids was the Pokemon phenomenon. But have the Pokemon films stood the test of time? Clearly (IMO), the answer must be no. And perhaps even the whole Pokemon phenomenon is passe' now with kids."

    Ahh but Pokemon was really a collecting and TV fad, and let me stress the collecting part. The film's were a side project to that. Maybe Pokemon has become passe, but the million other rip off shows are still on here and they're doing quite well. Pokemon really just got usurped by the other hot "collect them all" TV shows.

    "What I'm suggesting here is that how successful a film is with kids is not the ultimate factor in wether a film "stands the test of time". After all, "Lawrence of Arabia", "Casablanca", and "Citizen Kane", to name a few classics, were never kids films at all."

    But Lawrence, Kane and Casablanca aren't really successful movies among the populace now are they? They're the respected classics among film fans and buffs. The regular people know about them because all the critics bring them up at almost every juncture and pimp them as the greatest films of all time. I doubt most people have seen them or could tell you what they're about. The classics to the masses are the stuff like Star Wars, Indiana Jones, ET and Titanic because everybody (a great number of them kids) has seen them and they've wormed their way into pop culture because of them.

    "Elfstar makes a very good point - The relative success of HP2 and TTT compared to their predecessors will be a good example of how well each series is standing the test of time, at least for the short term."

    To a certain extent, yes. But then it's still a comparison of sequels to the original thing. No matter how many poeple think ESB is superior to ANH, the fact remains that ANH just levels it in terms of pop culture and standing the test of time. And no matter how great the other sequels/prequels are (or aren't if you don't like them) or how much money they make, the fact remains they they can never come close to the original in terms of impact. What the sequels do isn't really the point, however.



    On a side note can I also just point out that C3PO uttered the phrase "How rude" in the OT? George wasn't looking to Full House when he decided to have Jar Jar say it, he was looking at his own series.
  3. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    On a side note can I also just point out that C3PO uttered the phrase "How rude" in the OT? George wasn't looking to Full House when he decided to have Jar Jar say it, he was looking at his own series.

    True.
  4. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I just want to revisit this comment for a moment:

    there are people on these boards who have a better feeling for SW than Lucas now has.

    There are a lot of people who think they have a better feeling for Star Wars than Uncle George, but all it takes is one laughably inept prequel rewrite to put an end to that fantasy!
  5. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    but all it takes is one laughably inept prequel rewrite to put an end to that fantasy!

    Like the one where Obi-Wan's characterization is stripped and given to an unknown named Qui-Gon Jinn?

    Lost an 'n'.
  6. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Like the one where Obi-Wan's characterization is stripped and given to an unknown named Qui-Gon Jinn?

    Um, no.
  7. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "but all it takes is one laughably inept prequel rewrite to put an end to that fantasy!"

    You ever check out mine? I like to think it's an enjoyable read. :)
  8. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "On a side note can I also just point out that C3PO uttered the phrase "How rude" in the OT? George wasn't looking to Full House when he decided to have Jar Jar say it, he was looking at his own series."

    I doubt he puts that much thought into it.


    "There are a lot of people who think they have a better feeling for Star Wars than Uncle George, but all it takes is one laughably inept prequel rewrite to put an end to that fantasy! "

    I love you to durwood.
  9. Oryx-I Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    To be honest, every single fan version of the prequels that I've read sucked in a way or another and it was never nearly as enjoyable as TPM, IMHO. Some were sort of Matrix fanboy dreams, others were pale OT copies with Han Solo caracters everywhere, but none felt like an honest Starwars movie. The same people who write this stuff claim that the PT has no heart while their own writting is just... dull.

    But I disgress. I think HP, LOTR and Starwars PT will all stand the test of time. Matrix will be remembered too but it will be something a little more obscure. But I'm sure it will be considered as a classic SF movie, no more no less.
  10. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    Yeah, fan rewrites suck . . .



    . . . except my TPM rewrite of course, still available in my sig! :D
  11. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    "ANH just levels [ESB] in terms of pop culture and standing the test of time. And no matter how great the other sequels/prequels are (or aren't if you don't like them) or how much money they make, the fact remains they they can never come close to the original in terms of impact."

    So true. The only reason the horrendous AOTC made any money at all at the box office is because the afterglow of ANH still pulls people into theaters.
  12. Oakessteve Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 9, 1999
    star 6
    "Yeah, fan rewrites suck . . . "


    Mine didn't. It got me a girlfriend, so mine is obviously the best :D!
  13. stone_jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2001
    star 4
    Han's liberal use of phrases like, "He's the brains, sweetheart!" and "Not this ship, sister!" are pulled straight out of 1970's slang.

    Well, I was a grand total of two years old when the '70's ended, so I really would have no idea about this. ;)

    but all it takes is one laughably inept prequel rewrite to put an end to that fantasy!

    There's no need for that. [face_plain]

  14. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I doubt he puts that much thought into it.

    Lucas is never going to win with you guys. Whenever it's pointed out just how much care and passion Lucas puts into each of his Star Wars movies, bashers just brush it aside with a snide comment. Even as you deny it, it seems increasingly clear that some of you are bound and determined to hate the prequel trilogy come hell or high water!
  15. ElfStar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 4
    Please refrain from personal attacks. It is clearly stated in the opening post that any attacks on someone's character will not be tolerated.
  16. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    Two weeks before shooting began on TPM, GL ran into Lawrence Kasdan at a speaking function. The two got to talking, and GL asked him if he wanted to write TPM. Kasdan replied with "Don't you start shooting in two weeks?" GL - "Yeah, so?"

    I'm not bashing GL, but do I question the "care and passion" he puts into the scripts. I fully believe he is passionate about the digital process, and making these movies in general. But I think he would be best, and the movies of the PT would be better, in a role similiar to the one he had with ESB. He commands the ship - it's his story, but a polished screenwriter takes care of the actual script, a more seasoned director handles the directing chores. And with GL as Producer and Executive Producer, Rick McCallum has to go get a real job! I could see him doing a Ed McMahon-like job, if GL ever wanted to do a talk show, or just wanted somebody to follow him around saying - "Yes! You are correct, sir! HaHaHa!"


    Back on topic - I really don't understand how people think the Matrix is going to just disappear from the American consciousness with two huge movies coming out just next year.
  17. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    GL - "Yeah, so?"

    Actually, he wasn't flippant about it, as your post seems to imply. My understanding is that Lucas responded with a simple, "Yes."
  18. flagg Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 1999
    star 1
    "The only reason the horrendous AOTC made any money at all at the box office is because the afterglow of ANH still pulls people into theaters."

    PPOR, Jabba.

    Good luck ;)
  19. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Add all the people who saw ROTJ and TPM and AOTC together and you still don't have the number of tickets sold for ANH. It was the most popular movie of the past 50 years.

    AOTC and TPM are like the drunken, good-for-nothing brother of the President of the United States (theoretically speaking). There's some value in being seen with the brother of the President, but not necessarily because he's interesting or fun to be around.
  20. Oryx-I Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    The SE re-edition helps a little its BO, don't you think ? So this isn't very fair.
  21. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    ROTJ had a SE release too, sounds fair to me.
  22. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    "To be honest, every single fan version of the prequels that I've read sucked in a way or another and it was never nearly as enjoyable as TPM, IMHO. Some were sort of Matrix fanboy dreams, others were pale OT copies with Han Solo caracters everywhere, but none felt like an honest Starwars movie. The same people who write this stuff claim that the PT has no heart while their own writting is just... dull."

    For the most part, true. However, those scripts never (or rarely) actually get made into films. Unfortunately, GL's dull script with no heart did get made into something that doesn't really feel like a "Star Wars" film...it was called TPM.

    "Actually, he wasn't flippant about it, as your post seems to imply. My understanding is that Lucas responded with a simple, 'Yes.'"

    But the point is that George "Mr. Passion" Lucas, who has had all of this planned out for decades, still had no shooting script two weeks prior to commencement of principal photagraphy.
  23. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    I think he did have a script, but cares so little for that aspect of the filmmaking process, that he would have had no problem going with a Kasdan script instead. He would still get to play with his new fx toys, so what does the script matter, right?
  24. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    But the point is that George "Mr. Passion" Lucas, who has had all of this planned out for decades, still had no shooting script two weeks prior to commencement of principal photagraphy.

    Oh, come on, you don't think a pro like Lucas would be two weeks away from shooting a $50 million movie with no script? Cripes you people will believe anything if it lets you slap ol' George around!

    Lucas had asked Kasdan if he would like to go over the script, i.e. the script existed in a shootable form, and Lucas was asking Kasdan if he would like to go over it and offer suggestions, not write the damn thing from scratch!
  25. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    "Lucas had asked Kasdan if he would like to go over the script, i.e. the script existed in a shootable form, and Lucas was asking Kasdan if he would like to go over it and offer suggestions."


    That isn't what Kasdan said.
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