LOTR, The Matrix, and the Star Wars PT: Which trilogy will stand the test of time?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by ElfStar, Oct 7, 2002.

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  1. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    "Oh, come on, you don't think a pro like Lucas would be two weeks away from shooting a $50 million movie with no script? Cripes you people will believe anything if it lets you slap ol' George around!"

    And you will deliberately misunderstand anything if it means you can take another potshot at the evil "basher" menace.

    I never said he had no script. I said he had no shooting script. There's a difference.
  2. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "Lucas is never going to win with you guys. Whenever it's pointed out just how much care and passion Lucas puts into each of his Star Wars movies, bashers just brush it aside with a snide comment. Even as you deny it, it seems increasingly clear that some of you are bound and determined to hate the prequel trilogy come hell or high water! "

    I didn't say he couldn't win, nor do I think he's dumb, but that one line is such a ridiculous thing to think he would put so much thought into a throwaway, I give GL mroe credit then that.


    Duckman what makes your rewrite so special?
  3. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Anyway, I think Star Wars will be considered a classic because everything about it is truly original. The Matrix is basically Johnny Neumonic but done right, and the fight sequences are an homage to John Woo movies. The Lord Of The Rings films are based on an existing work of literature and are basically a remake of previous efforts (albiet the most successful to date). Star Wars is an entirely original creation, and I think that will give it much longer legs than competing franchises.
  4. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    [COUGH] Hidden fortress {COUGH]




















    Not that it detracts from the quality of the film, its more the original presentation of a number of unoriginal ideas.
  5. ElfStar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 4
    There is nothing new under the sun. There is no such thing as an original story. Their are only different interpretations of them, and different ways of presenting them.
  6. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    Agreed.

    Ideas are like money, and water there's only much of it in the world, constantly being recirculated.
  7. ElfStar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 4
    Yes. This is especially true regarding themes. There is absolutely no theme someone can put in a story that hasn't been done before. What differs is the interpretation and presentation of that theme.
  8. Lagniappe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    Okay, I am going to chime in my two cents, and try to do so in a non-biased way. Certainly, I have my own favorites among these franchises, and I am sure that colors how I see things, but I am trying also to base my ideas upon what I know about others I live and work with (who in general are NOT science-fiction or fantasy fans).

    First it is hard to make a prediction about "tests of time" when aside from SW we haven't SEEN what is to offer in the way of sequels for either the Matrix or LOTR...

    But...

    Matrix: My feelings are that Matrix will be the least likely to endure in any really meaningful way. Although it may be quite a phenomenon among a segment of the population, I can assure you, most people have no idea who Morpheous is...or anything about spoons. Sci-fi fans will continue to see the films and view them and discuss the interesting issues raised, but those who are not into sci-fi are unlikely to go out of their way to investigate these films. Unlike the SW films, they are not geared towards families, and thus will not attract parents out to rent a film for the kiddies. And unlike LOTR they have not basis in literature, so readers will not be drawn to a filmed version of a loved book.

    And I also agree that they are someone dated in terms of costume, language etc. Unlike, SW are LOTR which are set in "other times and places" Matrix suffers from being set in a more recognizable framework, which can date a film.

    The PT: Star Wars itself will endure...and the PT as part of it. ANH when it was release was such a "new" thing and so well executed for the time that it became a world wide phenomena - the PT will always be linked to this cultural phenomena - however, I think as stand alone films, the PT are not nearly so enduring as those of the OT - mainly because well done science fiction is no longer so rare... and because I feel the PT stories themselves are really more offshoots of the OT tale, and thus are not structured to really stand alone without reference to the OT.

    Still, as science fiction films, they are VERY well done visually and will endure as science fiction films that should be seen as part of the whole saga. And they are generally good films for parents to share with the kids, so are likely to be passed on from one generation to the next.

    LOTR: Like ANH and science fiction, LOTR has benefitted from being one of the first really well done fantasy films on a large scale. It will endure in part for that alone. Furthermore, it benefits from being based upon books which have been read by generations and will continue to be read in future. In schools, and universities and homes people may read the books, then see the films, or visa vera...which will aid in keeping the films in the minds of readers.

    And it seems to have cross-over appeal for people who are not necessarily into the genre of fantasy. Of all the trilogies mentioned, it is the only film which I know people I work with have actually gone to see and have discussed, despite not being into science fiction or fantasy.

    I am the only science-fcition/fantasy fan I know of in my workplace...and often get called "silly" for my interest in such "odd" things. Imagine my surprise when some of my generally straight arrow co-workers actually went to see LOTR and even liked it!

    I hate to say it, but apparently, there is a certain "legitimacy" to LOTR as an "adult" film based upon a book...which allows some people who would not be caught dead at a SW film or other science-fiction or fantasy film to actually talk themselves into going to see this one.

    Not my point of view, mind you... but
  9. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    I agree with all the above points.


    "Two weeks before shooting began on TPM, GL ran into Lawrence Kasdan at a speaking function. The two got to talking, and GL asked him if he wanted to write TPM. Kasdan replied with "Don't you start shooting in two weeks?" GL - "Yeah, so?""

    I hadn't heard that before. Thats reallys ad, that Kasdan could've done a rewrite and didnt. I really wish he was onboard for the PT.

    As for making up stuff to bash GL, no one bashed him with that comment, if you watch "the beginning' doc on the TPM dvd, GL jokes at the rehearsal weeks before the cameras roll that he still has to finish the script. I don't consider this Kasdan story sad becasue it makes GL look bad, all films under go rewrites right up until the end, the tragedy is that Kasdan didn't get to lend his magic this time around. I consider the OT to be as much his baby as GLs.
  10. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    "Mine didn't. It got me a girlfriend, so mine is obviously the best"

    Yes, how did that happen, Steve? I got a girlfriend on the net, but not from doing any rewrites. ?[face_plain]

    "Duckman what makes your rewrite so special?"

    Because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough and goshdarn it people like me! :D
  11. Darth Euro Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 1999
    star 4
    "I hadn't heard that before. Thats really sad, that Kasdan could've done a rewrite and didnt. I really wish he was onboard for the PT. "

    I disagree - What's sad, IMO, is that GL did not ask Kasdan much earlier. (if indeed that story is true) Who can blame Kasdan for declining to get involved in a movie that was just 2 weeks from shooting? He might still have said no, but at least that would have given him an oppertunity to help shape the script more.
  12. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    I didn't say I blamed him, but its just too bad he wasn't involved. I mean I'm sure he could do a good rewrite in the 2 weeks, but so much ahd been done, like the casting that he wouldn't be free to change things like say anakins age.

    I wish LK and GL had collborated again.
  13. The Flying Dutchman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2000
    star 4
    First it is hard to make a prediction about "tests of time" when aside from SW we haven't SEEN what is to offer in the way of sequels for either the Matrix or LOTR...

    I agree - for all we know these movies are going to be a (major) letdown...
  14. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    I think its pretty fair to say since the LOTR films were all made simotaneously they will all be about equal in quality. Which will mean differnent things to differnt people. TTT will probably be the best ebcuase its the best of the 3 books.

    As for Matrix, if if 2&3 are to matrix what empire and jedi were to SW then it will succeed. But it still lacks the kid factor, and it is set in the real world which dates it. But it will by no means dissappear if the sequels outplay the original.

    HArry Potter will last as books, no doubts there. The movies will last if they can keep the same cast, and style for all 7, if this is possible I don't know. But Chris Columbus said that he has no interest of the series becoming like the Joel Schmacher batman movies, the director s who take over for him after COS will have to keep a very similar tone and style.

    The PT will last because it is attached to the OT. But it wil always be considered a supplement. I hope when the OT dvds come out they level the sales of the PT just to show GL which ones we still love.
  15. XV426 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2001
    star 2
    I too think The Matrix is the least "timeless" of the big three. The soundtrack alone will date the film in a decade. Granted, there are timeless if highly unoriginal themes in the film, but I think much of the message is lost in its aesthetics: the trendy fashion, the trendy video like camera tricks and wire-fu, the trendy techno soundtrack, and so on...

    Star Wars, I think, will remain king of the hill for a long time. Its impact cuts pop-culture to the bone. I think the prequels will enjoy lasting success due to the Star Wars name alone, regardless of their actual quality.

    Rings will give Star Wars a run for its money. As the years pass, I predict its influence will grow, not diminish. After all, it's really the first "true" adaptation of modern fantasy's blue print. Bakshi's version is an utter hackjob that hardly deserves mention. Sort of like Lynch's horrid version of Dune. Granted, there maybe another adaptation of Rings in a few generations, but I doubt it. Jackson is already infusing this tale with a quality and passion that will endure for a long, long time. Sure, PJ's version strays from the source. So what? The important thing is that, so far, Jackson's vision holds well without the books. And in some cases, is an improvement. Fellowship might have its share of flaws, but it's generally a very well made film.




  16. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    I agree that one of the reasons LOTR will stand the test of time is that so few fimmakers really understand the fantasy genre. Trying to find good fantasy films that don't stake their success on a kind of winking, ironic pleasure in the whole campiness of it all (e.g. Conan the Barbarian) is not easy. LOTR is one of the first movies of its kind to take itself seriously, to treat its characterizations as if they were part of a legitimate drama.

    The original Star Wars succeeds in part for the same reason. Luke's earnestness sort of infuses the whole movie. TPM and AOTC, on the other hand, suffer from a kind of suspicion that George Lucas doesn't take Star Wars very seriously anymore. He's just trying to cash in on the rubes who like that sci-fi/fantasy crap.
  17. flagg Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 1999
    star 1
  18. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    No offense to anyone here, but I don't think there have been any really good points to support The Matrix not lasting.

    The dated style - Blade Runner, 2001: A Space Oydssey, and Star Trek(the person who said ST hasn't lasted is just plain wrong) all show there age in aesthetic ways, but are definite classics, with the possible exception of Blade Runner(possibly more of a cult classic), which was just one film, that was much less successful at the box office than The Matrix. 2001 goes as far to feature advanced technology, including commercial space travel, and it's set in, what is now, our past.

    Not accessible to kids- The Godfather I & II, and again Blade Runner, and 2001: A Space Oydssey. The Godfather films are among the most beloved in the history of movies, the non-kid factor, doesn't hurt them at all.


    I'm not saying it for absolute sure is going to make it as a classic, but I'm haven't seen a good reason that it won't.
  19. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Quote:
    "the fact remains that ANH just levels it in terms of pop culture and standing the test of time"


    I don't know about that. Ask the average person on the street to give a Star Wars quote and he's most likely, after maybe "May the Force Be With You", to say, "Luke, I am your Father". Ask them to name a favorite character and Yoda will probably be pretty high on the list. Empire was one of the few sequels ever made that actually outdid the original in a lot of ways.

    I just don't see the average person getting into LOTR the way they did Star Wars. It's just not as accessible. There isn't one clear protagonist and there aren't any really quotable lines or really any relatable characters.
  20. Lagniappe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    Rougesith,

    I have no doubt that the Matrix series WILL endure among a segment of the population (namely science fiction affectionarios)for it does indeed raise some thought provoking questions. However, I don't think it will have as much impact on the "general" public as Star Wars and LOTR.

    But then again, my car is a Matrix and I doubt Toyota just came up with the name. LOL!
  21. Jedi_Waster Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    star 2
    Average people don't get into any movie, they just watch them.

    The PT will not endure, even SW fans are divided on their greatness so what would make non-fans remember them? The majority dislike TPM and in a few years time AOTC will be just as disliked (as the effects wear off). And as the topic of this forum regards trilogies, you can't the PT based on the strength of the third and final movie (which will be a disappointment unless GL starts taking his thumb out).

    The Matrix is the most accessible trilogy of these three. It was absolutely mindblowing and blasted TPM (and snapped the oscars!!!!) with its unique combination of thought and action.

    LOTR will in the long term be the best of the trilogies, and the fact that so many people are saying the whole trilogy will be great is evidence of their firm love for its first installment.

    If gushers can't accept the greatness of LOTR, perhaps they should be the ones leading the vanguard to go to Skywalker Ranch and smack some sense into GL, instead of bashing a superior work through their insecurity.


  22. ElfStar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 4
    I certainly never meant to imply that Star Trek has not lasted. But no matter how good the episode is (and some of the old Trek episodes are quite good), I just can't ignore that the show was obviously made in the sixties. Every single aspect of the production design screams it.

    And I disagree LotR has no character that people can relate to. I could relate to Boromir, Aragorn, Frodo, Sam, and Gandalf during the movie. I do think they could've done a better job in some parts, but I'm hopeful the SE will help that. Also, FotR had quite a lot of exposition. TTT and RotK have a lot more character developement and more interesting characters. In that way I expect them to be better than FotR.
  23. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    Anyone who thinks The Faketrix is better than the prequels is . . .

    Bah! There's no emoticon to represent how much I ate them!
  24. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    The PT will last because it is attached to the OT. But it wil always be considered a supplement.

    Actually, there are already many who think of it as one six part story. There is no benefit in making the distinction between "old" and "new".
  25. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    The PT will not endure, even SW fans are divided on their greatness so what would make non-fans remember them?

    You're assuming that the "non-fans" will automatically agree with the "bashers". This isn't a given. If the Star Wars community is split 50-50 (although I think it's more like 70 in favor, 30 against, but that's just my opinion) then it would be reasonable to assume that the "non-fans" will divide down similiar lines.
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