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Lots of people hate AOTC and PT in general because it requires you to have a shred of intelligence

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by DarthCaulfield, Jun 14, 2002.

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  1. SLAVE2

    SLAVE2 Jedi Knight star 5

    Apr 6, 2000
    I'm sure many people loathe Osma Bin Ladin, I dont think its normal to feel the same way about a movie as people do about him.
  2. digitalyodarules

    digitalyodarules Jedi Youngling

    Jun 14, 2002
    If you really want to dig into the literature please read a Splinter of a Minds Eye or the Han Solo adventures, I got a hold of these when I was nine. If every hack writer who comes up with an idea and a book was allowed to build onto the Star Wars universe there'd be chaos, the films need to be self explanatory. If you don't buy this, please buy the last issue EVER of Stars Wars Comics I found on a news stand outside of Atlantic Beach, NC in 1985. I remember when Star Wars had strips in the Sunday Funnies, right out of the comic books, but back in the day, this never got in the way of movie making. As far as subtle politics...please read the next post... I don't want to ramble about 2 separate topics at once...
  3. TokyoXtreme

    TokyoXtreme Jedi Master star 4

    Oct 24, 2001
    Hey SLAVE2, when I was over at the dictionary earlier, I also brought back the first entry for the word "hate". Here you go man:

    1 a : intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury

    I think this is the definition you were referring to. You do know that words often have several different connotations depending on context?
  4. Jedi_Waster

    Jedi_Waster Jedi Youngling star 2

    Jun 1, 2002
    Anyone who thinks CGI looks good is obviously not intelligent. Just kidding...

    About the only thing that I really like about the PT over the OT is the fact that they're geared towards a more intelligent audience. Like TPM before it, AOTC again features (oh what a surprise?!) a scheme for power. I did, however, love the whole element that there's something rotten in the state of the universe. Bring it on! I personally could have done with a lot more scenes in the senate, where we got to see just how good Palps is at manipulating others, but we often don't get what we want...

    As children grow up and moviegoers see more films, they either become more accustomed to what they are shown and accept it, or grow jaded by the formulaic eye-candy before them. We now see two camps at opposite ends of the intelligent movies that rarely meet in one cinematic experience. One person's Universal Soldier is another man's Twelve Monkeys. But most of the time, people simply don't know what they want from a movie (as has been iterated already above). Sometimes I admit to myself that I love to watch 007 movies, I come out afterwards bashing it because it had all the elements already seen in every other Bond movie, so why did I see it, given that I already knew what to expect?

    To be honest, I don't know. Maybe it's in the vain hope that next time, it will be different. That perfect balance between familiarity and originality, inventiveness and implausibility, intelligence and fun.

    But then who said art couldn't be entertaining?

    Note to self: Never read Dante.

  5. Mar17swgirl

    Mar17swgirl Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Dec 26, 2000
    I agree with DarthCaulfield. To most of the regular moviegoers (and even some SW fans), the PT movies are confusing at times. That's because you can't just WATCH it, but in order to understand it, you must also THINK about it. The more I think about it, the more depth I see in them. Much more than in the OT. Like PBra said, the OT has much simpler plot - here you have the bad Empire, the good Rebels, they fight. There are only few mysteries and plot twists in the OT, namely Vader being Luke's father and Leia being his sister. There's really nothing much else there.

    The PT is a different story. You have the constant mysterious villain (Sidious), who happens to be the same person as the Senator-turned-Chancellor-turned-Emperor Palpatine. But no one knows it! Then you have the Jedi, who are depicted much more complex than in OT. And then you have Anakin Skywalker himself - the Chosen One, conceived by the midichlorians, who's supposed to bring balance to the Force. But he falls to the Dark Side. In PT, we have Palpatine pulling all the strings, we see how the galaxy changes, we have a lot of politics to deal with - and there's no longer white or black, but many shades of gray in between. Who's good? Who's bad? In PT, it's not very easy to say.

    It's true, you have to think a bit about the PT movies if you want to understand them. And I like them being that way, because they're not served you on a silver plate. And I agree that you can't possibly judge the PT movies (or, the Star Wars movies in general) fairly after one showing. Heck, it's hard to digest it all after one showing (it was hard for me to digest it, and I practically knew the entire plot since I was spoiled rotten). That's why I think that the movie critics should see it at least twice before writing a review, cuz otherwise the review is not very fair (it may appear flat and with overwhelming FX, and the real message stays hidden).
  6. digitalyodarules

    digitalyodarules Jedi Youngling

    Jun 14, 2002
    Why do people hate the Prequels, because they lack CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. Why do Han and Leia fall in love? Because Han puts a hell of a lot of effort into "courting" her and Leia is human, she does need companion ship and well Han did save her life a few times, so the guy can't be all bad...The Prequels lack this completely...Why is Obi-Wan like a father to Annakin, because Annakin said so. I wouldn't have guessed from the first part of AOTC. Why do Padme and Anakin fall in love, they're a couple of passionate crazy kids...NO BUT WAIT...Padme is a politically powerful Senator loved by her people and the opposition to the biggest decision to face the Senate in a lifetime. Doesn't really seem to make sense to me. As far as subtle politics, where are the discussions between Bail, Mon Mothma, Padme and other groups...Pro-War, Neutrals etc. No give and take. No contact with Dooku, the Trade Federation, Commerce Guild, etc. to bring them back into the Republic. Did the Republic ever work? It had to or else it would have fallen apart a lot earlier. What about patriotism to the Republic? It must have gotten over regional politics. Think of it like the European Union, or South Asia, with all of the different cultural groups trying to survive as a Super Nation or a single government. Weren't they're any Treaties of Westphalia to help create the Repbulic, like nationalism was created in Europe. No wonder Palpatine wins so easily, his biggest opponent in the Senate is a ditzy girl (Padme) who leaves the biggest test of her political career to a clutz and maybe certifiable idiot (Jar-Jar). Please don't get me wrong AOTC was a good movie and TPM was good, a true kids movie, which parents could enjoy, which hasn't been made in a long long time, but the Prequels aren't at the same level as the Original trilogy, they just lack the direction and script.

  7. SWfan2002

    SWfan2002 Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 28, 2002
    If you think the PT lacks character development, read this...

    In TPM Anakin dreamed of being a Jedi. He wanted that more than anything else. In AOTC, he is well on his way to becoming a Jedi, but he decides to fall in love and risk getting kicked out of the Jedi-Order.

    Obi-Wan is an apprentice in TPM. He is in the background learning from Qui-Gon. He gets reprimanded a few times but that is to be expected b/c he's learning. Flash-forward to AOTC. Obi-Wan is the confident Jedi Master and has an apprentice of his own.

    In TPM, Queen Amidala is the strong and confident Queen of Naboo. In AOTC she has second thoughts and is not sure that she was ready be have been the Queen.

    There are others, but I think this proves the point that the PT DOES NOT lack character development. And remember, we've still got EP3 for the characters to change even more.
  8. sdj

    sdj Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jan 3, 2002
    I wish the OT characters were as well developed.
  9. Padme Bra

    Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jul 2, 1999
    Why do people think the Han/Leia romance is more interesting or believable that the Anakin/Padme one? It's basically the same relationship. The straight-laced politician girl and the poor bad boy. The AOTC relationship is actually more believable because Padme is younger than Leia and Anakin has been thinking about Padme for 10 years.
  10. DarthCaulfield

    DarthCaulfield Jedi Youngling

    May 27, 2002
    Hey guys, thanks for all the input. I admit, perhaps i titled this thread a little too harshly. Sometimes I am that way. I didn't mean to imply that all people who don't like the PT don't like it because they are stupid. Granted there are many flaws in the PT (abysmal dialogue one of the biggest). I take no exception to people who critique the PT - provided that they understand the plot and have legitimate reasons. But I do think it's unfair for people to criticize the movie for being too convoluted just because they are not well-versed in history, politics, etc. Attack the dialogue, attack the CGI, attack the acting all you want- but I personally think the story is top-notch.
  11. digitalyodarules

    digitalyodarules Jedi Youngling

    Jun 14, 2002
    DarthCaulfield, thanks for this topic, but like I tried to emphasize my first post, there was a fair amount of literature between Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back, but the no movie-goer needed to know about it to enjoy and fully understand the movie sequels.
  12. Pooja

    Pooja Jedi Knight star 6

    May 25, 2002
    Lots of people hate AOTC and PT in general because it requires you to have a shred of intelligence

    Actually they hate it to have something to complain about on a daily basis.

    If Lucas nailed Episode III- perfect dialogue, acting, music, FX, perfect everything, no matter what, people would still hate it.

    If Episode III made Empire Strikes Back look like crud, Episode III would still get dissed.

    No matter what.
  13. Sometimey

    Sometimey Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jun 1, 2002
    You know what, I was unspoiled for Episode II and the only novelization I've ever read was ROTJ, but I understood it just fine. I love Star Wars and I know the movies like the back of my hand and I don't think Lucas included anything in TPM or AOTC that you need the novel to understand.

    I don't know much about Sifo-Dyas but I assume I'll find out in Ep III. I don't know the origins of the Sith but it isn't too hard to figure out. I assume they broke off from the Jedi a long time ago and they primarily practice the dark side of the force. If I could understand Darth Vader from the OT then I can understand the Sith. Well okay I think I know more about the Sith simply from conversations with other fans but I don't see why a casual viewer wouldn't be able to understand them. The rule of two? I know what it is and I accept it as one of those rules that always seem to pop up in fantasy. And I can surmise as to why.

    Why do you need to know everything to understand or enjoy these movies? I do think it is more enjoyable and deep if you see the OT before the PT because you should have a working knowledge of Star Wars, but it isn't that hard.

    I enjoy seeing how Palpatine has manipulated things and seeing how the Jedi and the Republic fall. I enjoy Anakin's progression and seeing just how Obi-Wan could have failed so miserably. I understand and enjoy the politics because it mirrors things that have really happened. Maybe one day I'll read the novels but I am just saying you don't have to in order to understand the films. I think that is unfair to GL and untrue.
  14. Padawan92

    Padawan92 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jan 22, 2001
    I have to agree with the idea. Most people are on a one thing at a time leave. Star Wars needs much more. That's why not a lot of people like George. He is to good for them to think Star Wars up.
  15. Sabreman

    Sabreman Jedi Master star 2

    Feb 11, 2001
    At least the plot of TPM was understandable. AOTC's plot was just plain confusing.
  16. LustrousBust

    LustrousBust Jedi Youngling

    Jun 15, 2002
    I have to agree with Pooja
  17. Rikalonius

    Rikalonius Jedi Youngling star 3

    Jul 26, 2001

    Great post. I think back to watching Gadiator. It had far more political give and take, and plot twists, and honest emotion that AOTC had. And I've seen it 3 times for you nay'sayers out there. Actually though your right, you should see it twice, because the first time I was overwhelmed by the special effects and I was just enjoying it (I still didn't think it was a great movie) Then I realized the second time around a High School Drama teacher could do a better job with Lucas' resources.
  18. SWfan2002

    SWfan2002 Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 28, 2002

    Would you be so kind as to post SPECIFIC PROOF of AOTC's weaknesses. Based on your comments I think you should have plenty of well thought out examples to share with all of us so we too can see how bad AOTC was.
  19. foxbatkllr

    foxbatkllr Jedi Knight star 6

    Jul 27, 2001
    Why do Han and Leia fall in love? Because Han puts a hell of a lot of effort into "courting" her and Leia is human, she does need companion ship and well Han did save her life a few times, so the guy can't be all bad

    Let's see here. Anakin puts way more effort into courting Padme than Han puts into courting Leia in the entire OT. Padme is human, she needs companionship as she is the target of assassination. And oh guess what? Anakin has saved her life several times as well...
  20. Ded-Man

    Ded-Man Jedi Youngling star 2

    Jan 18, 2002
    Yes, I agree with the premise of this thread, though it kinda goes without saying at this point.

    Sorry to see the basher population is on the rise in here.
  21. DarthHomer

    DarthHomer Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Apr 29, 2000
    I agree that the complicated plots of the prequels have narrowed their appeal to audiences. People seem to want films like Spider-Man with simple a-b plots and black and white heroics.
    I also think that some fans seem to prefer films that stick true to the source material and offer no surprises (like LOTR, Harry Potter and Spidey) whereas they think the prequels are messing with established continuity (even though they aren't really).
    So, in short, Star Wars is wasted on today's moviegoers :)
  22. sidious1

    sidious1 Jedi Youngling star 6

    Jun 5, 2002
    Even though many people thought TPM was aimed at kids it did have a lot of ground to cover-the discovery of Anakin,Palpatine manipulating his way into power etc.. so on that scale I thought it was good BUT AOTC was the most awesome Star Wars film to date (this comes from a hardened ESB fan) SO if you hated TPM and especially AOTC I can only reiterate what Harry Knowles said-IT MUST SUCK TO BE YOU!!!!
  23. Qui Gon Binks

    Qui Gon Binks Jedi Youngling star 1

    Nov 20, 1999
    For me, the political maneuvering gives the prequels an edge in sophistication that the OT does not have.

    And I think part of the problem is that the story the prequels are telling is just not the story some people wanted to see. Me personally, I enjoy seeing how the Empire rises and how the Republic is manipulated by the Sith. GL has done a fantastic job with this portion of the PT and a lot of people put it down by saying it's too complicated. The film critics just say that cause they're not Star Wars fans, like us. How many times have we seen the films? More than they have and we love them more than they do. A Star Wars fan is your best critic, not the New York Times.
  24. SWfan2002

    SWfan2002 Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 28, 2002
    I agree Darth Homer. I've heard a few people say that SW is "getting away from its original idea." That complaint doesn't make much sense to me, but many people simply don't have the desire to understand SW. It may not be that people are too dumb to understand it, but perhaps they just don't want to.

    I think a lot of people just see SW as a big video game movie. They probably see any plot as being dumb and "uncool". I mean, when was the last time you heard someone say that the plot or story of any movie was "cool"?
  25. Rikalonius

    Rikalonius Jedi Youngling star 3

    Jul 26, 2001
    Sorry to see the basher population is on the rise in here

    Well think about what a stupid accusation it is. Of course people who didn't like it as much are going to defend themselves.

    It's like saying.. Lots of people hate Britney Spears and Boybands because it requires you to have a shred of musical knowledge.

    I was really excited when I read the Graphic Novel. But what started the dislike was that they left out key scenes were dropped. Palpatine's annoucement of Padme's death, Anakin's extended confession, the mission into the core ship. Instead we were treated to childish C3PO antics.

    I'm going to go ahead and link a critical review, because the writer articulates it much better than I do. I read this review before I saw the movie. I thought the guy was off his rocker, but his review was the first that came to mind after I saw it.

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