Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by DarthCaulfield, Jun 14, 2002.
Point to Jedi Chikara.
Now that is what I call putting it in perspective,
we're disussing a movie with syntax-challenged green gnomes, gay droids and people running around with glowsticks and spouting dialogue about some mystical power called "The Force".[\i] I love it!
Wait, stop the party, hold up...
I just heard on several posts that the prequels feel too "on track" meaning that they have to do certain things for story purposes, rather than being movies and proper narratives on thier own.
Uh, that's...retarded? Yeah. If you think that, my condolences, because your brain must be working overtime or just not working at all.
Guess what? The originals had to follow a certain plot pattern JUST as much as the prequels. This is just given. I mean, in Empire Strikes Back, what would have been the point of Han being frozen and sent to Jabba if the opening of ROTJ was different than it was? That'd be pretty lame.
People, movies, as well as ALL forms of novelization, is on a set track, whether you see it or not. I don't even want to hear that the prequels seem too forced, because well, that's utter ridicule. The only thing more idiotic I've heard in my life than that is
OSAMA FOR U.S. PRESIDENT
Obviously it is complicated because alot of people don't get it.
The complex part is the core of the story. You know questions like "why is it called Attack of the clones if the clones are the good guys?" but the clones are a tool that allows the bad guy to gain more power. Essentially they are attacking the fabric of the Republic. In AotC it's how building the army and starting a war will give Palpatine more power. It's also complicated because Palpatine is playing both sides and how Dooku is going along with it. Sure when I say it plain and simple like this it's easy but the movie is composed of scenes and you have to piece the dialogue together and read between the lines a bit.
So to back up the creator of this topic I do think alot of people don't accept the differences of the prequels from the originals. I've heard complaints about their being no clear cut villain to fight against, yet there is in Palpatine but the heroes don't know it. Really I like this better than the standard heres the bad guy lets go get him. Also they don't like how the galaxy is not war torn already and want the old used look of the originals. Myself I like the differences and seeing the galaxy turn into the one that we saw as children is just as exciting as seeing it in that state.
Really I think some people are upset because their fantasies of seeing Darth Vader brutally kill all the Jedi 1 by 1 hasn't happened (and probably won't).
AND the way I rationalize the bad fx in the OT is that all the aliens took to wearing rubbermasks upon order from the Empire, puppets are an actual alien species and some alien monsters (taun tauns for one) cause you to percieve them as moving jerkily because of an interruption in the space time continum. LOL
"Obviously it is complicated because alot of people don't get it."
I understand the movie perfectly, but I still don't like it's hap-hazard approach to a narrative. I really had to fill in the gaps with my own prior Star Wars knowledge to get much of the plot holes and inconsistencies. That is not the structure of a good narrative.
Now, now, before any of you say "wadda you want it spoon fed to you?", I will say No, I don't. But I don't want it delivered in a shaking heap either. If Quentin Tarantino can have various, seemingly seperate plot lines all going at once all end tie up perfectly and in conjunction with one another at the films conclusion (Pulp Fiction for example) and make perfect sense, then why cant Mr. Lucas do it in AotC? No excuse, except bad writing.
Why all the references to the Original Trilogy? It was far from perfect, but the narrative, acting and character development was far and above better than the Prequel Trilogy. It seems like the new catchphrase now when defending the Prequel Trilogy, "Oh yeah! We'll, the OT was just as bad!".
tom thum the buk..
If Quentin Tarantino can have various, seemingly seperate plot lines all going at once all end tie up perfectly and in conjunction with one another at the films conclusion (Pulp Fiction for example) and make perfect sense, then why cant Mr. Lucas do it in AotC? No excuse, except bad writing.
Um there is another one coming. I heard it was going to have the words Episode 3 in the title. I think once 3 is done even those without indepth SW knowledge (except for the extra slow) will get the whole picture. I remember after ESB I was thinking "how the heck are they going to explain that Vader is Luke's father and how can they possibly destroy the Deathstar". Now as a standalone movie yes I do think Pulp Fiction had to tie up all lose ends. So it's not a baseless excuse it's the nature of the beast and that is all we point out when we say things like this.
So the point of AotC was to raise countless questions and unresolved sub-plots on that will be answered in Episode III? That would be true for a movie in the middle of a trilogy, but AotC had absolutely no resolution at the end. Not even one of the seemingly endless sub-plots where completed. That left me, at the end of the movie, wondering what the hell I saw this movie for. It had no ending, or I should say no ending worth mentioning.
To bring up a good example, The Lord of the Rings is the first in a Trilogy and has an ending (Boromir dies, the Fellowship becomes seperated). And to get even more to the point, The Two Towers is the middle of a trilogy and has a spectacular conclusion (warning spoilers: Saruman is defeated by Gandalf, victory at Helms Deep).
Why can't Mr. Lucas do this if Tolkien can?
It's not a bad movie. Remember your opinion is not fact. Look the word opinion up in the dictionary and write that down ok.
As for ESB what loose ends did that tie up?
Why do I feel like I'm talking to Mathesar from Galaxy Quest.
Why can't Mr. Lucas do this if Tolkien can?
He's too busy having modifications made to that digital camera for Episode 3
"I really had to fill in the gaps with my own prior Star Wars knowledge to get much of the plot holes and inconsistencies. That is not the structure of a good narrative."
i think this statement pretty much sums it all up. if the PT was made first and had to stand on its own, a lot of things in it either wouldn't make much sense or just wouldn't be that interesting.
I don't think AOTC's story was all that complex or confusing, but I have to agree that my biggest problem with the story itself is that it seemed largely unfocused. Trivial aspects of the story are often given more attention than the juicy parts (Jango and Obi-Wan's conversation, Tatooine scenes, etc.). The "Mega Man" sequence plays for longer than the Tusken Raider sequence, right? Therefore, it is made more emphatic. But how did the Mega Man sequence advance Anakin's character or propel the story further?
McCallum himself says on the TPM DVD (cut-scenes documentary) that anything that doesn't push the story forward must be cut out. By this logic, why wasn't the droid factory cut out? The podrace was a lot of flash, sure, but it did help characterize Anakin as a gifted pilot with Jedi reactions. Maybe the droid factory is meant to demonstrate Anakin's force powers, but certainly there could have been a more efficient, more dramatic, and thus more entertaining way to do this?
One last thing about CGI. I feel my main problem with CGI (and honestly, when people complain about CGI, they are complaining about CGI characters and not CGI compositing techniques analogous to the old optical techniques responsible for matte lines) is that the effect is so jarring that I am taken out of my suspension of disbelief. This does not happen during other scenes in the movie when actors in rubber suits are used.
Man the bashers are out in force tonight.
"Remember your opinion is not fact. Look the word opinion up in the dictionary and write that down ok."
I never said my opinion was fact. Don't put words in my mouth, boy. I state my opinion, plain and true. I'm not going to dumb it down or make it politically correct for you.
Skillmatic nails it
"I think this statement pretty much sums it all up: If the PT was made first and had to stand on its own, a lot of things in it either wouldn't make much sense or just wouldn't be that interesting."
That's it. Game over. A killer blow.
I just can't realize what it is in the OT, that people are so attracted to... I find PT a lot better
I liked the Star Wars movies before, but it was the TPM and AOTC that really made me a fan. Before TPM, I had only seen the OT like 5-6 times, but after I saw TPM, I watched the OT like the same amount in few weeks... and especially now that I've seen AOTC I'm just starting to like OT nearly as much as the PT... I just think that they're too old-fashioned... ANH is kinda boring, I was never into the space fights... It was the Jedi that made me like SW. Only thing that saved ESB, was the ending. ROTJ could've a PT-level movie, but was ruined by the Ewoks even more than Jar Jar ruined TPM... in AOTC I was kinda glad that it was Jar Jar that did the bad thing...
sorry if this didn't make any sense
the haters of the pt are the fans that grew up with the ot.
i wasn't born for th ot and i like the pt better.
thats what it comes down to.
I pretty much agree with the idea behind this thread.
What the PT is definitely not doing is cowering to what the audience want. It?s not doing the Hollywood trick of providing cheap thrills that keep the audience entertained but have absolutely no artistic merit.
If the studios got a hold of the Star Wars franchise they would have taped into the established fan base (25-35 year olds). We would no doubt have had Anakin as a teenager, hundreds of Sith, Matrix style ?bullet time? action, gratuitous violence etc. Jar Jar would be replaced by a fast talking, gun toting, Han Solo-esque character, who could dodge bullets or something. The whole thing would be a "fanboys" dream, and thinking mans nightmare. The action junkies, and mindless morons, would love it, but the venture would intellectually be worthless, and the essence of Star Wars would be lost.
And that?s the problem for some people... They want more of this low level stuff.
I think the problem with a lot of haters is that they think they OWN these films! And in the PT they?re not getting what they expected. They hate this! It?s sooo offensive to them. ?What did Lucas do to OUR movies? He?s ?raped our childhood? etc. Laughing my ass off! I often think of TPM and AOTC as being more ?Star Wars? than the OT. It?s in the same tradition but Lucas is completely unrestricted in what he can bring to the screen.
Of course some people have grown cynical about things... I mean it?s clear some of them can?t look on these films objectively. If they?re not moaning about the story, it?s the direction, or the special effects (which is just completely ludicrous!).
Unfortunately, for us, they haven?t got anything else better to do than continually moan about it!
So, I think the fact that the PT films are more thinking mans films than the Hollywood ?blockbusters? that swamp the market these days, it does require a slightly more intelligent perspective on things to fully enjoy it.
But I don't know. These films can be enjoyed on completely different levels and you don't strictly need to be intelligent to enjoy it.
But it helps!
Take it easy frantic "bashers", you're gonna blow a circuit.
>>> ?To bring up a good example, The Lord of the Rings is the first in a Trilogy and has an ending (Boromir dies, the Fellowship becomes seperated). And to get even more to the point, The Two Towers is the middle of a trilogy and has a spectacular conclusion (warning spoilers: Saruman is defeated by Gandalf, victory at Helms Deep).
Why can't Mr. Lucas do this if Tolkien can?? <<<
This is quite funny! I love it when people, inadvertently, help your argument for you. Okay Boromir didn?t die at the end of FOTR! The book had a remarkably and unprecedented open ending! There was no real closure (not necessarily a bad thing) .
You?ve obviously been confused by Hollywood?s crass cash in of the franchise.
The film was changed to have more of a conclusion (Boromir dieing etc.) because Jackson, or the money hungry studio bosses above him, knew that he needed to give a closure to the film to help the lower brow and common movie audience something or they?d cry foul!
I think the plain answer here is you DO need everything spoon-fed for you! You can?t stand that a film is being different. It sounds like you want more predictable, and frankly inartistic, Hollywood trash?
Your argument is way off. The AOTC ending is perfect. Intrinsically it?s no different to TESB ending. The hero?s have escaped with their lives intact, ready to fight back again in the next film. Brilliant.
the original poster does seem to have a point. Not every single person that complains about AOTC neccisisarily sounds unintelligent, there are many people with great intellect that bash this movie, but a majority of people who bash it (meaning more than 50%) seem to have the complaints that tie in to the fact that gives me the feeling that they want a story spoonfed to them, so for that fact,yes there are many people that need more intelligence or should I say a better attention span, we all know Americans are slowly but surely losing any attention span.
As far as AOTC goes, it is complex, yet simple at the same time. thus it pleases children who just like seeing a fun movie with lots of good actoin, but at another level, it requires intellect of an adult, and in some way this movie is almost like a mureder mystery as well. (not exactly but I am sure people will no what I am trying to get at)
I do konw the OT very well, but for both TPM and AOTC, neither movie requreis any knowledge from any other movie to be able to understand what the plot of the movie is nor detracts it from being a fine movie.
for example in AOTC, if I knew nothing about any of the 4 other movies, I would get this-
There is an assasination attempt on the senator from Naboo ( there is references to things that happened 10 years ago throughtout the movie and in the opening credits that establish why), this includes how she knows obiwan and ankin and the chancelor and jar jar. then it moves along, we see there is another attempt on her life and we can see how these jedi use their senses to protect her and ward off the poisenos bugs. These Jedit then are instructed to do an investigation of who is killing padme after obiwan and ankin learn of the fact there is another bounty hunter besides the one they found was hired to kill Padme. Meanwhile anikin is to take the senator back to her home planet for they feel she will be safer there. Meanwhile there is another peice of the puzzle, there is a planet which ob1 wants to go to due a clue from the other bounty hunter that is somehow erased, and only jedi can erase it as yoda says and he is disturbed by this but his couneling with Yoda helps him to find the planet. He gets there and makes a massive discovery, these kimno dudes are making this huge army for the republic and they tell him they based in on Jengo fett, and he asks for a meeting, the meeting gives ob1 chills about him and makes him believe he is the hunter they are looking for, and also he finds out from Mace that the republic never authorized a clone army and that the guy who ordered it was not even alive. Thus they instruct him to persue this bounty hunter, which he tracks to Geonosis. In the meantime, Anikin and Padme are alone and teasing each other into faling in love, but then anikin has nightmares about his mother and thinks something is wrong so he goes to Tatooine to go find her and Padme comes along to prevent anikn from disobeying his mandate to protect her. He visits Watto, and there are sublte references that he used to own his mom (you need not know TPM to nkow why he visited watto at this point) and he finds out he sold her to Lars, a mosture farmer. He goes to find the Lars homestead and he meets his step brother Owen and Beru, asks where his mom is and then the father clieg tells him they have much to discuss, and he learns of what happened to his mother. The family thinks she is dead, but anikin want s to find her anyway cuz he most likely senses that she is still alive but he also tells padme these are good people, so he trusts them, most likely becuase he felt anyone who wold free his mo ther of being a slave and lost his leg in tring to find her despite only 4/30 people coming back shows he is being a good man. they show ani go looking for his mom, making a coule stops talking ot natives and then he finds the camp.
In the meantime, we see ob1 has discovered geonosis is wher the bounty hunter went, but has no idea where he is still, but while looking for him he is hiding and sees Count dooku (who padme accused of be
[hl=yellow]Jango tells obi that dooku commissioned him to be the foundation of the clone army, while dooku is leading the separatists against the republic...think about it...HOW COULD OBI WAN HEAR THIS[/hl]
I haven't read every post in this thread, so I don't know is this has been addressed or not - but it's comments like this that make me wonder if alot of people on this board are like homer and 'make up' a movie in their head as they are watching AOTC.
Jango tells OB1 that Tyranus recruited him - when does Dooku reveal to ANYONE that he is Tyranus? Only one person - Sideous - at the end of the movie...
So how in the world is Obi-Wan supposed to make that connection!????!
That notwithstanding, I have seen some intelligent posts and rebuttals in this thread.
Interesting idea. I very much doubt this is the main motivation for bashing among the fans, but it might be an insight into the minds of anti-AOTC critics.
Nice how Brodie took out his statement that AotC is a bad movie and then acted like he never said it in an attempt to make me look stupid. You editted that one while I was gone.
Glad you caught that one before me, Prof Frink
BTW, whoever said this:
"Seriously...by introducing the fett crap into the movie he completely moronized the story."
Moronized is not a word. Please try again.
To be fair, there are a small percentage of bashers who have genuine complaints with the movie (but even then they blow up the flaws all out of proportion). But the majority of people bashing AOTC, especially in the media, just do not get the film at all. Thus, we can immediately disregard their opinion.
It's a Sunday afternoon and I'm somewhat bored. So I thought I'd demolish an anti-AOTC review (sadly, one from my favourite newspaper).
[blockquote]Attack of the Clones, as thinly dramatised as it is, does not move with quite the torturing leadenness of the previous film...[/blockquote]
I cannot see how anyone could watch AOTC and moan that it moves slowly. It's absolutely full of action--far too much in my opinion! Was this "critic" asleep during the Dooku/Yoda battle, the droid factory sequence, the arena battle, etc etc?
<Snip large helping of rhetorical irrelevancy.>
[blockquote]Poor old Hayden Christensen, playing Anakin Skywalker - and Amidala's suitor - has been dealt a cruel twin blow by having not just a ponytail but a sad little braid curling over his shoulder...[/blockquote]
He does not come from Western society on earth--he is a Jedi Knight! Should he be expected to conform to our narrow definitions of "coolness"?
[blockquote]Hard to know what sort of character to project with a hairstyle like that, and Christensen struggles with what ought to be the pivotal role: this, remember, is the youth destined to become Darth Vader, and we are meant to detect in him warning signs of his later conversion to evil. Not so far. Christensen can't manage anything stronger than a teenage strop as he rails against his mentor, Obi-Wan: "He never listens. He just doesn't understand. It's not fair."[/blockquote]
Again, the reviewer must have been taking sleeping pills. Or did he willfully ignore the fact that Anakin slaughtered a whole camp full of Tusken Raiders?
[blockquote]In truth, it would be difficult for any actor to instil grace and conviction into the lines that George Lucas has written. This writer-director-producer really is a phenomenon: one could scarcely tell from his vacuous, antiphonal dialogue that he has spent time in the company of human beings at all. The screenplay is co-credited to him and Jonathan Hales; between them they haven't succeeded in dreaming up a single interesting line. There's an occasional stab at humour amid the drowning portentousness, but nothing that would raise a smile, or even a smirk.[/blockquote]
Actually, the "I'm feeling rather beside myself" of C-3PO is highly amusing, to name just one example. And Anakin and Padme are not normal, one having spent half his life in the Jedi order and one having devoted herself to politics.
[blockquote]This film wants to dazzle us, only without having to enquire too closely into the human drama of desire, ambition, fear. It's not that George Lucas has no imagination; it's just that what he does imagine is so very, very boring.[/blockquote]
Desire: Anakin and Padme, anyone?
Ambition: The whole point of the movie is Palpatine's power-grabbing. Is trying to take over a galaxy and build a moon-size battle station not ambitious enough?
Fear: This isn't Stephen King. Perhaps the establishment of a dictatorship over an entire galaxy isn't scary enough, as well as being devoid of ambition.
[blockquote]There's a plot of sorts. Amidala, now a senator, is trying to preserve the Republic against breakaway factions, for which pains she has become a target for assassination. The authorities depute Obi-Wan and Anakin to be her protectors, and soon enough they're crossing paths and lightsabers with a roving bounty hunter and a genetically engineered army - the "clones" of the title - marshalled by that apostate Jedi, the thin white Dooku.[/blockquote]
This "reviewer" thinks that by summarising the plot, he can undo its complexities. AOTC's plot is far more complex than that of many movies. Are the mysteries surrounding Sifo-Dyas, or Palpatine's political intricacies, or the creation of a clone army, not "plot" enough?
<Snip another large helping of rhetorical irrelevancy.>
[blockquote]The climactic arena fight is even more flagrant in its borrowing - you can almost sense Lucas's disappointment that he didn't make Gladiator.[/blockquote]
I rather liked Lucas's takeoff of