Lots of people hate AOTC and PT in general because it requires you to have a shred of intelligence

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by DarthCaulfield, Jun 14, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. dahveed72 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
    quote:

    For the record, I really like AOTC. And I also love classic, artistic cinema. Let's not try to come off as cultural elitists, when we're disussing a movie with syntax-challenged green gnomes, gay droids and people running around with glowsticks and spouting dialogue about some mystical power called "The Force".

    good point.

    oh and anyone who actually thinks you have to have even above average intelligence to appreciate the PT is, well, "special".
  2. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Dahveed,

    :D You are special, too, albeit for an entirely different reason. Anyone that can manage law school is special. That's one tough profession.
    *Kill 'em with kindness Undomiel* :D
  3. SWfan2002 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2002
    star 4
    Typical lawyer trying to stir up controversy. ;)
  4. Radovan_Karadzic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2002
    star 1
    i think that reason people don't like the complexity and the politics is becuase papaltins poltical manuverings are similar to things in consipiracy theories and there is a great disbelief and ridicule of consipriacy theroies among the general public. partly this is because they belive that they are unrealistic and too complex for real life which leads them to not liking movies that have consipiracy like plots. partly this is becuase their belief that the conspiracy theories are too complex for real life makes them think that movies that have conspiracy like plots are too complex



    I also think that alot of what you believe is decied subconsiously and not fully thought out without realizing it. which partly i think affects peoples judgment on things
  5. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Darkside Spirit,

    How odd! That was a professional review? I thought dramatized was spelled with a "z", not a "s". Interesting. Perhaps the "s" spelling is British? Um. I'm not trying to completely pick his review apart, but it couldn't have hurt to employ a spell checker for a professional review. The single braid was a tradition carried on in the warrior clans. The warrior would often clip it off and leave it with his woman, as a memento before he went into battle. I'm unsure how professional the review was, but it certainly isn't going to get marks for spelling and historical saavy.
  6. Lord_Cronus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    I would first like to say that AOTC is a fairly good movie. Could've been better, but it beats TPM. It does not, however, require any above average intelligence to understand. Just a knowledge of the previous films. (the difference between knowledge and wisdom, remember?) I would also like to say that TPM was a HUGE disappointment. The only reason I bought the DVD was for the final duel. The acting was poor, not due to the actors themselves but to poorly written dialogue. And c'mon guys, Jar-Jar?? Lucas' half-ass attempt to explain the force through microscopic organisms, organisms that go and knock up Shmi?? You don't have to nitpick to not like EP1. I have to nitpick just to enjoy it. Darth Maul...I guess that was it. Take him out of the picture and you have a movie that rivals Independence Day and Batman Forever in its lack of anything substantial besides hype. And the politics in AOTC are not all that complex, guys. Lucas is not Hobbes, or Locke, or Aristotle, or Cicero, or Machiavelli. He is a writer/director who wants to tell a familiar tale of redemption and is looking to make a buck along the way. The incidents leading up to the Clone War do not rival the complexity of the path that lead to WWI. (if you really enjoy politics, read up on Otto Von Bismark) I believe that the people who blindly love TPM are the truly ignorant ones. I have had friends stop talking to me for daring to blaspheme the all-mighty George. They see no wrong in TPM. Maybe they had lowered expectations, or maybe they were afraid of becoming a pariah, cast out from the realm of geekdom by their peers. (I wasn't officially cast out, but I'm on probation) I was looking for the movie that had everything, like LOTR turned out. That had the special effects, the acting, the plot, ...everything. Loved by the people and the critics. Luckily, enough people risked being branded a traitor to speak up about the shoddy job done on TPM. AOTC was a much, much better movie because of them. (Less Jar-Jar! Hoorah!!) But as Dennis Miller says, "That's my opinion, I could be wrong."
  7. sdj Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 4
    The TPM forum is over there and I only go in there when I'm in the mood for a fight.
  8. Slave-2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 2
    I agree DarthCaulfield. People moaned about how TPM had a boring plot that revolved around a trade dispute, but you have to understand that this is a catalyst that was used to begin the destruction of the Republic. I find the political manouvering to be a welcome addition to the saga as it shows the complexities of the political landscape of the Republic, and the subtleties of Palpatines manipulative character.
  9. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Lord Cronus,

    From what I've noticed so far, no one seems to be afraid to voice their opinion here -- one of the advantages (or disadvantages, depending on your perspective) of the anonymity of the internet. I, myself, had debated at length on the lack of any mention of Padme in IV-VI, but I'm still a major fan of the Star Wars saga. The only people who seemed uncomfortable with my reservations concerning Padme's treatment in the storyline are men who think I'm adopting a politically correct position on the treatment of women in general in Star Wars. It isn't so much a generalization as a specification -- Padme needs closure. Depending on how the story plays out in Episode III, we may or may not see a satisfying emotional closure for Padme because of the mechanics of the storyline and the order the movies were filmed in.

    Be that as it may, I think some critiques aimed at AotC and TPM are a bit over the top. I'm not sure if those who do criticize them are just seeking fame and fortune at GL's expense or if it's a matter of "rebel forever", or if Star Wars simply isn't their cup of tea.

    I'll be the first to admit I didn't like TPM (although Maul was great) as much as IV-VI, but I still was completely entertained by it. I liked it more than other blockbusters like "The Matrix", but still immensely enjoyed "The Matrix" for its innovations and sweet editing.

    I think it's a matter of just how much you love Star Wars. Some view it as a fairly entertaining saga and leave it at that, so naturally their opinions will fluctuate drastically if they see what they consider to be subpar material. Others love it and find very little to complain about, if anything. It isn't they don't want to criticize, but rather they love the stories so much, they are impervious to minor details or inconsistencies a more critical eye might deliberately seek out.

    That's my story and I'm stickin' with it. :D
  10. Lord_Cronus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    SDJ,
    I know where the TPM forum is. I brought up my disappointment with the movie because the message posted by DarthCaulfield (Holden?) questioned the intelligence of those who hate the AOTC and the PT IN GENERAL. That would include TPM and therefore would open it to debate. I realized while writing it that I was dwelling on TPM, so I can see your point. I like AOTC. I finally got a chance to see it yesterday, not once but twice. I only wish TPM was that good.
  11. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    So the point of AotC was to raise countless questions and unresolved sub-plots on that will be answered in Episode III? That would be true for a movie in the middle of a trilogy, but AotC had absolutely no resolution at the end. Not even one of the seemingly endless sub-plots where completed. That left me, at the end of the movie, wondering what the hell I saw this movie for. It had no ending, or I should say no ending worth mentioning.

    So The Empire Strikes Back ends perfectly and resolves everything?
  12. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    It had no ending, or I should say no ending worth mentioning.

    Whoa, I'd definitely say Anakin and Padme's marriage was a pivotal, important moment to the entire series.
  13. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    To bring up a good example, The Lord of the Rings is the first in a Trilogy and has an ending (Boromir dies, the Fellowship becomes seperated).

    To bring up a good example, The Phantom Menace is the first in a Trilogy and has an ending (Qui-Gon dies, Amidala saves back Naboo, Anakin begins training, Obi-Wan is knighted).

    Get your priorities straight plzkthx.

    Whoa, I'd definitely say Anakin and Padme's marriage was a pivotal, important moment to the entire series.

    Yeah well not only that, but was I the only one who saw the Death Star plans, the Jedi realize that they are screwed, all of the clones marching onto ships, the beginning of the Clone Wars, like you said- Anakin and Pamde's marraige- I mean...what the crap people? Do you bashers literally, while trying to fall asleep at night, brainstorm ways to bash the prequels the following day?

    *sigh*
  14. sdj Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 4
    Explain it to him as you would a child...

    nope he still don't get it.
  15. jedi-jeff Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2000
    star 3
    I thought AOTC had more of an ending than TESB. ESB seemed to end rather abruptly with even more loose ends than AOTC. I thought AOTC had a pretty good ending with the clones going off to war and Anakin and Padme geting married.
  16. Lord_Cronus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Undomiel,
    I love Star Wars, maybe too much, which in combination with my sometimes over-analytical mind led me to tear apart TPM. If people like it, or even love it, more power to 'em. AOTC, in my mind, makes up for the first movie. I hope the trend continues and Ep3 is even better.
    As for Padme, her character deserves a well written closure, and you are right, it will be difficult. If Georgie-Boy is as good of a writer as some fans feel he is, this shouldn't be a problem. Ep3 could be a rather long movie (3+ hours) if Lucas wants to end the PT in fitting fashion (i.e. tying it seamlessly with the OT). I can't wait to find out.
    PS- I heard, as I'm sure most have, that Lucas may tinker once again with the OT, specifically ROTJ, by adding ghostly images of Padme into the film, a la Obi and Yoda. If it's true, it means Lucas has realized this issue as well.







  17. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    If Georgie-Boy is as good of a writer as some fans feel he is, this shouldn't be a problem.

    I doubt its a problem, for Lucas has known what will become of Padme for nearly a decade now. We may not like how he does it, but he sure knows. ;)
  18. Slave-2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 2
    It's completely unrelated to this post but I agree with Lord_Cronus in that EpIII will probably be 3hours+ (at least I hope so. It'd probably have to be to tie up all the loose ends and the story will have a lot happening in it.)
  19. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    Well Episode II was over three hours with all the cut scenes.
  20. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Lord Cronus,

    Well, ask yourself if you liked it better than other films that came out that year? This would be the real barometer on how successful GL was at entertaining you. Even the lightsaber battle between Maul, Obi and Qui, was worth it. Add to that new droidekas, the wonderful underwater scenes, the introduction of Padme, Qui-Gon, Anakin as a young fella, Shmi, Sidious and Palpatine, the Republic Senate, new planets, new races, new technology, and the movie begins to take on a whole new perspective.

    I realize Jar-Jar was extreme, but even I fluctuated between wanting to hug him and wring his neck. :D

    I agree AotC is a better film but that may because the story is nearing crescendo. Episode III is gonna be incredible for some reasons and entirely depressing for others.

    As far as requiring intelligence in order to enjoy them, well yes they do spend more time with political intricacies than the OT did, which DOES seem to make them complicated. I'm not a fan of politics so I didn't enjoy the political manuevering as much as say a good dash through an asteroid field with Harrison Ford. :D

  21. DarthCaulfield Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    Lord Cronus, I'm glad you picked up on my username. Yes, I did take it from my favorite novel ever, The Catcher in the Rye. Keep posting, this is a great debate!

  22. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Lord Cronus, for the crime of comparing TPM to Batman Forever you shall be thrown into the pit of Carkoon where you will be consumed by the all-mighty Sarlaac :)

    But really, Batman Forever = worst superhero movie ever!

    (actually, they made another one after that)

    Okay, Batman Forever = 2nd worst superhero movie ever!
  23. baggles Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 1999
    star 4
    "Lord of the Rings is the part of the trilogy and has an ending... If Tolkien can do it. Why can't Lucas?"

    That ending you decribed (Boromir dies etc etc) was near the beginning of the SECOND book. It was only the ending of the film version.
  24. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    True, but that's because LOTR was originally written as one single book. IMO, Jackson picked a better stopping point than Tolkien's publishers did. :)
  25. Emi-Yan_Tetu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 2
    Homer you're right. I'm from the UK and, after the release of AOTC, I was eagerly awaiting a program called The Late Review (I think it's called that - It's part of Newsnght) on the BBC to hear what I thought would be an intelligent discussion. The Late Review, for those who don't know, is a program where a group of highly read and intellectual people gather to discuss movies, books and all other kinds of art.

    Well, to say I was highly disappointed by the stabdard of discussion was an understatement. One particular gentleman who participates regularly (Tom Paulin) really enjoyed the film. He described it as a grand epic about the ideals of the Republic.

    During stating this opinion he was basically mocked by the two other critics who laughed audibly at his opinion.

    I thought it was shocking.

    They thought that he was reading too deeply into it and it's ONLY a childrens film. The chairman of the discussion kept on describing Star Wars as just a way to sell toys!!

    Is there anything more offensive? It was a shocking display of arrogance and complete ignorance on the part of these people. There is so much more in these films than they care to realise.

    I really think the fact that this is set in a futuristic space environment does turn, some preconcieved people off. God I don't know how many times I've heard people say "No, I really don't like Star Wars. I hate that kind of thing." and then say that they've never actually watched or seen any part of any of the films, but still be adamant that they don't like it!


    So perhaps in revision I don't think intelligence is the important thing when watching a Star Wars film... rather, I think you need an understanding.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.