Lots of people hate AOTC and PT in general because it requires you to have a shred of intelligence

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by DarthCaulfield, Jun 14, 2002.

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  1. SWfan2002 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2002
    star 4
    Some people don't even know the difference between SW and Star Trek. It frustrates me to no end!
  2. Emi-Yan_Tetu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 2
    Emm haven't we already covered this?

    My post from earlier ->


    --------------------------------------------

    Brodie?
    >>> ?To bring up a good example, The Lord of the Rings is the first in a Trilogy and has an ending (Boromir dies, the Fellowship becomes seperated). And to get even more to the point, The Two Towers is the middle of a trilogy and has a spectacular conclusion (warning spoilers: Saruman is defeated by Gandalf, victory at Helms Deep).

    Why can't Mr. Lucas do this if Tolkien can?? <<<


    This is quite funny! I love it when people, inadvertently, help your argument for you. Okay Boromir didn?t die at the end of FOTR! The book had a remarkably and unprecedented open ending! There was no real closure (not necessarily a bad thing) .

    You?ve obviously been confused by Hollywood?s crass cash in of the franchise.

    The film was changed to have more of a conclusion (Boromir dieing etc.) because Jackson, or the money hungry studio bosses above him, knew that he needed to give a closure to the film to help the lower brow and common movie audience something or they?d cry foul!

    I think the plain answer here is you DO need everything spoon-fed for you! You can?t stand that a film is being different. It sounds like you want more predictable, and frankly inartistic, Hollywood trash?


    Your argument is way off. The AOTC ending is perfect. Intrinsically it?s no different to TESB ending. The hero?s have escaped with their lives intact, ready to fight back again in the next film. Brilliant.
  3. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    Some people don't even know the difference between SW and Star Trek. It frustrates me to no end!

    That is my number 1 pet peeve.
  4. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    I really think the fact that this is set in a futuristic space environment does turn, some preconcieved people off.

    Dune is a perfect example of a sci-fi that has alot of complexity to it. It'd be impossible to compare it to a kiddie film. Yet, the critics despised the movie adaptation of it as well. I thought it was amazing. It's nearly impossible to please critics with sci-fi. As a general rule, they like their entertainment to have 2 feet on the ground or at the very least two flippers in the ocean. Apollo 13 was one of the only space-related stories that gleaned critical acclaim, most likely because it was not science fiction but science fact. It was also very well done AND was about us, here, in the not so distant past.

    My take on it is, critics don't like sci-fi. Even most fantasy films take a beating from the critics UNLESS the fantasy is based on historical works, such as an Arthurian legend.

    Does anyone know what the bulk of the critics thought about "ALIEN" and "Blade Runner"? I know they loved 2001: A Space Odyssey but there again, there's enough science fact mixed in with the fiction that it doesn't stray too far from reality.

    Perhaps it's a matter of not liking anything that requires them to believe in places not in science books at college.

    -Undomiel
  5. Rikalonius Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2001
    star 3
    Undomiel,

    The problem is that I'm not a critic. I'm a sci-fi nut. Since I was a little kid I have loved all things sci-fi. It isn't that I can't suspend disbelief. It is that I can't get past applied physics. If you say something is one way and establish rules around which you tell the story of your universe, then throw those rules to the wind all the time, don't be suprised when people are frustrated with your vision.

  6. Emi-Yan_Tetu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 2
    Well Rikalonius, I'm sure you won't mind me saying that we watch and appreciate these films on entirely different levels.

    :)

    I pretty much argue the fact that Star Wars can be classified as Science Fiction. It might sound crazy to some people, but for me it isn't.
  7. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Rikal,

    Just out of curiosity, which rules are being thrown to the wind? I didn't know you didn't like AotC. It wasn't my favorite either but it was in the top 2. Depending on how sad it is, Episode III may end up in the top slot. Just depends.

    I think AotC is more complex than the OT films. Perhaps the problem was the clear demarcation between what kids could understand, what adults could understand, and what critics knew to begin with about the Star Wars universe. I think he made the PT dual-natured so it had broader audience appeal AND to tell the story. This is how the story unfolds. Palpatine has to manuever and manipulate politics in order to be the Emperor. Necessary activity. But if the politics were so complex where your average politics afficiando would be sufficiently impressed, the other people who watch Star Wars for fun, would be totally put off.

  8. jedi-jeff Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2000
    star 3
    It is that I can't get past applied physics.


    I do not see how one can look at Star Wars or any other Sci-fi film using science. For example, if you look at such films scientifically, then you will wonder why ships go faster than light or why is there sound in space.
  9. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    You know, I and many others "understood" this movie plenty, but story and intricacies aside, there are detractors of this film who feel the basic interest level, drama, and impact of this film just don't amount to a hill of beans at the end. Maybe it rocked your world, but not mine. And not many other critics either apparently.

    I wouldn't even put AOTC in my list of 10 coolest films I've seen the last year or so. Yeah, that's pretty sad because I always look forward to a Star Wars film to top my list as the coolest movie I've seen in a while. But it's not (IMO).

    So what films did I think were oh-so-great compared to AOTC? A Beautiful Mind, Black Hawk Down, Vanilla Sky, Apocalypse Now Redux, Changing Lanes, Gosford Park, Ghost World, Insomnia, and a slew of others. Frankly, I was moved, excited, challenged, tickled with delight, shaken to tears by these films a whole lot more than AOTC.

    Isn't that funny even Changing Lanes was a better scripted/acted film than AOTC! That's sad really. And I hate Ben Affleck, but a good film is a good film, and I honor that, even if the star of Changing Lanes gives me hives. And Sam Jackson was much better in this film. None of the dreadful monotone "They came back from a border dispute on Ansion." I always crack up at the lifelessness in his voice.
  10. jedi-jeff Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2000
    star 3
    I do not have a problem with folks that do not like the prequels. As I have often said, it is unrealistic to expect everyone to like a film.

    What I do not understand is why those who do not like the prequels would even want to see Episode III. Yet I get the impression that many of the prequel bashers are still going to see Episode III, probably several times. I have yet to hear any prequel critic give a reason that makes any sense for why they still want to see Episode III.
  11. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    John Williams 00,

    I love movies but not much will pry me from the comfort of my home, and down the dusty road to the cinema, besides Star Wars and almost anything else by George Lucas and/or Steven Spielberg. I still haven't seen the films you listed. I don't know if I will. I may be convinced to watch a good fantasy movie [FotR!] or action adventure [The Matrix], but I usually just wait for them to come out on video.

    Star Wars to me, is an event. It's one of those films you have to see on the big screen the first time, to get the full effect and the communal audience experience. Vanilla Sky, on the other hand, would be just as functional on my tv set as on the big screen. So I don't bother seeing those types of films at the cinema. I plan on seeing "Minority Report" at the cinema because it has that big screen appeal, but Schindler's List would rate a first viewing on VHS because it doesn't require the big screen to tell the story to its full advantage.

    Remember, Lucas says his films are visual not literary. Their pieces of artwork with some dialogue to go along. You have to view them as such or you'll be disappointed every time.
  12. Jar Jar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 1998
    star 4
    I dunno if the PT requires one to be smart in order to like them, but it does require one to know at least a moderate amount of Star Wars stuff. John Q. Public doesn't know how a Jedi acts or much about the Jedi order at all, they just know they use magic to do stuff and hack things up with lightsabers. John Q. doesn't care about the political structure or honestly really know what the Republic is suppsed to be, they just know it's appearantly the galactic government and that some guy is in control of it.

    All these little things, little nuances, is what makes the film for me. Lines like "Perhaps someone you are familiar with.." or "If only Senator Amidala were here..." Those mean something to me, but not to someone who doesn't follow Star Wars all that much.

    To them, what is important are cool fights, hammed-up acting and a clear story. TPM, even if you hate it, had a Point A to Point B story and AOTC does not. This makes it hard to follow if you aren't in the loop. Want to know why critics hate it? There you go! Does this make them stupid? No, just not fans of Star Wars.

    This movie was for us. If you hated it, oh well, because I get the feeling that Episode 3 will be borderline incomprehensible given that not too many folks popped in to watch AOTC. The interesting part will be to see what the critics have to say, but that will have to wait.
  13. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    What I do not understand is why those who do not like the prequels would even want to see Episode III. Yet I get the impression that many of the prequel bashers are still going to see Episode III, probably several times. I have yet to hear any prequel critic give a reason that makes any sense for why they still want to see Episode III.

    Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I'm seeing Episode III and as much as I bash, I'm very excited about it. Because it will resolve a lot of things. I stick with Star Wars because I loved 3 out of 5 films. And I didn't think TPM was done as well as it could've have, and I thought AOTC improved a lot. Hey, I sound like a broken record -- it's exactly what the critics say too. But I'm hoping Episode III will be even more improved over AOTC, and that will be very good. I feel like I'm watching ol' George Lucas trying to remember how to ride a bicycle. Slowly, but surely, the skill returns to his hands and feet. You don't have to agreee with that statement, but it's how I feel.

    And I like to think of Star Wars like I do with my favorite sport(s) teams. I stick with them through thick and thin, and I love them, hate them, praise them, bash them, but I'm still hooked no matter what.

    undomiel: that's a good point that some films are better designed for the big screen while others are just fine for the small one, but how would that explain how the OT amazed the hell out of me? And I did not see it on the big screen, but on horrible VHS copies a few years ago with cheap TV sound. And I remember the moment I finished ANH the rare feeling of seeing something truly wonderful and exciting. I couldn't stop thinking about it for weeks, like my mind was obsessed with some childish infatuation. And it didn't stop there...I popped in the ESB tape and my mind was blown away again. This was almost too much pleasure for a human being to handle. It's almost criminal. And this lofty blissful state still wasn't over -- lets not forget ROTJ...
    :D [face_love] :D

    And on the topic of big-screen versus small screen, a lot of my favorite movies are black and white, and a few of them are silent films. (Like Charlie Chaplin) I've seen them all on cable TV or CHS tapes that are halfway falling apart. The visual quality many of these films are old and cruddy, but what makes me love them is the heart is still there. And for me, that's much more important than just spectacle and flash, because that's what makes a movie last.

    Anyone here watch Charlie Chaplin's City Lights btw? It was on AFI's list of most romantic films. And it crushes me every time I see that film. (Yes, it's MUCH more moving than AOTC. 8-}) It's about a poor tramp with a crush on a pretty flower girl. But she's blind and the tramp does everything in his power to earn money, not for himself, even though he's painfully starving and penniless, but for the girl he likes, so that she can have her eye operation to restore her vision. Utterly poignant. For a film with no color and sound, it's amazing how the emotions it gives off can still be so tender, full, and alive in these silent films. I think George needs to watch these films again the way he watched them back in college.

    My point, and strong belief, is that when it comes to making movies we love, heart triumphs over spectacle every time. Those ten films I listed earlier had it. AOTC almost did, but it seemed really dim in comparison. Okay, Changing Lanes didn't necessarily have "heart" as in romance or tenderness, but it had a confidence and intellect to it that made it feel like a movie with a soul of it's own. Yeah, that's the ticket! :D







  14. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    John Williams 00,

    You're fortunate I didn't ask you to revoke that most auspicious title. ;) But since you've redeemed yourself somewhat by recalling for the gathered company, your own addiction, I shall overlook it. :D We all make mistakes. Star Wars is a good addiction to have and a great mistake to make. No guilty pleasure involved, just innocent pleasure similar to walking barefoot in a puddle or climbing a tree only to discover a bird's nest, complete with speckled eggs on a nearby branch. :D

    If my words seem flowery, blame the Flanneled One, such is the effect of good mythical cinema. Many a time, I've heard fans of other films wax melodramatic over their cinematic addictions, why should you be any different? :D

    We understand, don't we folks? Yes, we do understand. :)
  15. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    I must give the real JohnWilliams a bad name. [face_devil] Hehe. The real guy is a good-natured gentlemen, while I like to be blunt and coarse. :D I'm the sand on Tatooine that Anakin describes. ;)

    I guess my point to my long-winded post(s) is to sort of come to the defense of some of the critics. I don't agree with the generalization that not understanding it all makes one a witless dolt. I think there are quite a few of us Star Wars fans in here who totally understood every nuance of AOTC and TPM and still were not as amazed as we would've liked. It felt more like dessert when we actually craved the main course. :(

    I also like to think of myself as a basher who's more defensive rather than agressive. I don't want to jump into every single thread spoiling it with my negativity, but I do jump into threads to sort of defend the viewpoints of some critics. Not all, because I agree some critics out there are totally wacko, but at the same time, I guess I could understand where some of the naysayers are coming from. Reading some of their well-thought out criticisms I can only shake my head in agreement on most of it.

    And all my critiisms are my opinion of course, and I hope people can respect that and give us critics a little breathing room here. ;) ;)

    Um, I don't know what else to say. Must end this post in a witty manner...

    (silence).........




    (crickets chirp).......













    (runs away)





  16. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    John Williams 00,

    Well, at least you know you're alive. Some folks never express their opinions for fear they'll be shot down, never live for fear they might feel something. So you've got hutzpah, that we've already established. Now then, don't you feel vindicated for your decision to be "coarse"?

    I don't think it's so much that people are dimwitted because they don't understand it, but rather they would understand it if they were Star Wars fans. Your contention is not that you can't understand it but that you do and still don't like it very much. Some critics don't understand it at all and say so in their critiques. These are the people, I'm assuming, this thread was written for. You have to be rather silly to write a critique on one part in a six part series and not already know enough about it to understand its simple political meanderings. Follow what I be saying to yoo?

    BTW, there's a waitress out here in a nearby restaurant that is the spitting image of Jennifer Lopez. She could be her double. It was almost freaky being waited on by her.

    "Jar Jar: Dumbo Head???" How old are ya? lol
  17. prof_frink Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 1, 1999
    star 3
    I always kind of agreed with the subject line of this thread - but those weren't the exact words I words I would use. This is how I see it - people hate AOTC and the prequels because they just don't care about the story.

    Something that happened to me first hand today made me think about this thread. I was over at the in-laws today, and my brother in law turns to me and says "I saw Episode 2 and it was the worst movie I have ever seen, the acting was bad and it had no plot" I of course said to him "Oh well, too bad you wasted 12.50 on the movie and didn't enjoy it" and closed the subject.

    This got me to thinking - people who are casual fans, or have seen any of the Star Wars movies at some point in their lives just don't really care about the back story, all they care about are flying ships, some swordfights and thats it - this whole "how the empire was created" thing is of little interest to them.

    And this train of thought took me down another path - the talk around the table turned to the movie "Traffic" and how they all hated the movie (I thought it was a great movie) and these were the reasons listed:

    - Subtitles were annoying
    - Colour changes were annoying(sepia to colour)
    - Plot was incomprehesible

    All things I've heard about Star Wars - but I think I know why they didn't like it - there was no clear 'bad guy' the line between good and bad was so blurred - you didn't know who to care for, and who to root against - and this is what is happening with the prequels - no identifiable bad guys - the lines are blurred and the casual viewer can't pick sides.

    So what my long winded disorganized post is trying to say is that you don't have to be of superior intellect to 'understand' AOTC (or TPM for that matter) but what you have to have is a basic interest in the backstory, and a suffcient understanding of the existing story to fully appreciate what is going on in these prequels.

    I've said this in other threads, and I'll say it again - if you are not a Star Wars fan, and do not have a good understanding of the OT - AOTC will make almost no sense to you...
  18. DarthCaulfield Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    You make a lot of good points, Prof Frink. But I think we have to make a distinction between "uninteresting" and "incomprehensible." You need not have any knowledge of the OT to understand AOTC (provided you saw TPM -AOTC is a sequel to Episode I, afterall). Seeing the OT may enhance your enjoyment of certain aspects of it, but it should not affect your intellect's understanding of the plot. To say AOTC has no plot is just ludicrous.
  19. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    My mom enjoyed AOTC and doesn't know anything about Star Wars at all. My dad has seen all the SW movies but is not a huge fan and thought AOTC is the best SW movie of them all. Conversely, a guy I used to always count on as being a loyal SW fan disliked AOTC. I am confused.
  20. Tricky Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2001
    star 5
    I think lots of people are confused by AotC. As they watch the PT movies, they get hints that the Sith are the winners at the end of TPM & AotC. Bad guys never win in normal movies...why are these guys Darth Sidious & SC Palpatine in the backround causing so much trouble for the Jedi?




    That's what it could be like, if you think that you do have a "shread of intelligence" and try to overanalyze why other people didn't like AotC as much as I did. I need sleep.
  21. ElfStar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 4
    What an insulting title. Not surprising on this forum of course.

    I guess I might as well throw away my above-1500 SAT scores. The test was obviously, my dislike of the PT proves that.
  22. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    What an insulting title. Not surprising on this forum of course.

    I guess I might as well throw away my above-1500 SAT scores. The test was obviously, my dislike of the PT proves that.


    Yes you should.
  23. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    Lord Cronus,

    Well, ask yourself if you liked it better than other films that came out that year? This would be the real barometer on how successful GL was at entertaining you. Even the lightsaber battle between Maul, Obi and Qui, was worth it. Add to that new droidekas, the wonderful underwater scenes, the introduction of Padme, Qui-Gon, Anakin as a young fella, Shmi, Sidious and Palpatine, the Republic Senate, new planets, new races, new technology, and the movie begins to take on a whole new perspective.

    I realize Jar-Jar was extreme, but even I fluctuated between wanting to hug him and wring his neck.

    I agree AotC is a better film but that may because the story is nearing crescendo. Episode III is gonna be incredible for some reasons and entirely depressing for others.

    As far as requiring intelligence in order to enjoy them, well yes they do spend more time with political intricacies than the OT did, which DOES seem to make them complicated. I'm not a fan of politics so I didn't enjoy the political manuevering as much as say a good dash through an asteroid field with Harrison Ford.


    Best. Post. Ever.
    Kudos.

    So what films did I think were oh-so-great compared to AOTC? A Beautiful Mind, Black Hawk Down, Vanilla Sky, Apocalypse Now Redux, Changing Lanes, Gosford Park, Ghost World, Insomnia, and a slew of others.

    I will not question your opinion, because that's what it is- merely an opinion. But how on earth did you like Black Hawk Down more? It was, quite simply, 2+ hours of gunfire. I know it was based on true events, but there was NO character development at all- when someone died, I wasn't crying, I was yawning. I mean- and some parts of the movie, like 20-30 minute segments, was just constant gunfire.

    I like gunfire, but that movie just overdone it. I just fail to see how you liked BHD, a movie with no character development at all and non-stop gunfire, rather than a movie that changes scenes at least a few times, has character development, and...well...I just think it's so much better.

    Sorry, I just cannot see why you liked that movie more. I apologize. I'm not putting you down at all- if anything, BHD did not have any bad acting, or any bad dialogue. SW Episode II did, in places...but that shouldn't matter. I mean...Episode II was just more colorful, different, deep, and well, everything, more than BHD.

    Just my opinion. ANYWAY back on topic.
    ;)
  24. DarthCaulfield Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    Just to clarify once again, I didn't mean to say anyone is stupid. When I titled this thread I was using exaggeration, hyperbole, whatever you want to call it. I just meant the PT requires a level of thinking higher than that of the OT. And also, notice I said "Lots of people" who hate AOTC, not "everyone" who hates it.
  25. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "You?ve obviously been confused by Hollywood?s crass cash in of the [LOTR] franchise."

    It may interest you to know that Hollywood is not in New Zeland. :p
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