Lots of people hate AOTC and PT in general because it requires you to have a shred of intelligence

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by DarthCaulfield, Jun 14, 2002.

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  1. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    off-topic :D...

    Sorry, I just cannot see why you liked that movie more. I apologize. I'm not putting you down at all- if anything, BHD did not have any bad acting, or any bad dialogue. SW Episode II did, in places...but that shouldn't matter. I mean...Episode II was just more colorful, different, deep, and well, everything, more than BHD.

    Well, I respect it if people didn't dig the film, because it is actually a very unconventional film, rather than a mainstream one. And many of the powerful moments in the film are not spoken or shown, but lay underneath the surface. There's moments of quiet symbolism too. When the general stoops down and wipes a pool of blood, it showed that no man is above anything (even a high officer shows some responsibility) and notice that the blood never wipes off clean, but makes an even worse mess on the floor. The stain of blood, (if one wanted to read it on a deeper level), never "wipes off" when it comes to war. You're scarred once, you're scarred for life. As many movies about the psychological effects of warfare have depicted (The Deer Hunter, Platoon)

    What made BHD so great in my eyes was the what it said about humanity and warfare underneath the surface. It has so much depth to it, if one wanted to analyze it further. (I'm having a blast on the DVD reading the symbolic images in this film. Director Ridley Scott took painstaking efforts to infuse this film with meaning)

    For one thing, we realize that war is never as easy as you think it's going to be (notice how a simple 30-minute operation was stretched out into an actual 15-hour nightmare). It's a lesson for us that the enemy should never be underestimated, and that military supremacy (U.S.) are nothing when you're up against relentless fanatics (the Somalis who followed their leader with blind allegiance and would die for their cause). It not only relates to today's headlines, but even relates to Star Wars theme that military power like the Empire's are nothing against the faith and determination of the Rebels. In BHD, the U.S. did not win a victory that day (which is quite different for a standard Hollywood film) but instead, we learned a tough lesson, the hard way. I like it when the film goes off into unexpected tangents.

    And the lack of character development in BHD was actually intentional (as Ridley Scott mentioned) and a good thing because he didn't want the men to grow into distinct personalities. This is not a movie-star's film, but rather, everybody's film. Each soldier we saw on screen represents the millions of real men fighting for our cause out there every day. To give them distinct "quirks" or personality traits would lessen the importance of the men as a whole. Seeing the enormous efforts to save just one wounded man reminds us of the frailty of life, the difficult sacrifices involved (so many men involved to save a man who's dying anyways), and the importance of camaraderie and teamwork. In BHD, just like in real war, every man is important. (Reminds me of the way Obi Wan checked the pulse of a fallen Jedi -- it reinforces the feeling of the deep respect they have for their fellow soldiers in war.)

    Black Hawk Down and Saving Private Ryan sort of remind me of two sister films because they have similar themes. "Leave no man behind" and "Is it worth the lives of 9 men to save the life of one?"

    One of my favorite quotes is from Seven Samurai (another Lucas influence).

    "[In war] He who only thinks of himself will destroy himself."

    There's so much more to Black Hawk Down that I could write about but I'm afraid I've hijacked this thread enough. :D



  2. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    I've personally noticed a great deal of self-congratulation in many of the vicious reviews of AOTC I've seen from professional critics. It's like a contest, almost: "Let's see how vicious I can be, and how much hyperbole and hypocrisy I can pack into one review!" They're proud of themselves for hating AOTC, or claiming to hate it, so much. Then they go and act like they're martyrs, because anyone who dares utter a bad thinga about Lucas is flooded with hate mail--much like bashers on this site act like they're persecuted. From what I can see, bashers are almost deferred to. I've seen bashers get away with saying all kinds of inflammatory things, whereas I've been banned for saying less.

    And I've seen a piety in some of the reviews on various message boards: "I hate SW because of all the hype. I'll stick to independent films like Y Tu Mama Tambien." Um...first of all, what hype? AOTC was the most underhyped summer blockbuster I've ever seen. Second of all, AOTC is an independent film.
  3. jed-eye Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2000
    star 2
    people who defend AOTC are like the people who defended TPM 3 years ago. i was one of those people. i loved TPM when i first saw it. but as time went by and the adrenaline was wahsed away from my system i began to realize that i was wrong and see what TPM really is: a bad movie. in a few months all the AOTC-lovers are gonna feel the same thing. AOTC is a bad movie.
  4. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    people who defend AOTC are like the people who defended TPM 3 years ago. i was one of those people. i loved TPM when i first saw it. but as time went by and the adrenaline was wahsed away from my system i began to realize that i was wrong and see what TPM really is: a bad movie. in a few months all the AOTC-lovers are gonna feel the same thing. AOTC is a bad movie.

    No it isn't, and are you perhaps clairvoyant?

    Why are you hanging around here since you hate TPM and AOTC? Why not move on to something you do like?
  5. jedi-jeff Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2000
    star 3
    Jed-eye:

    I hope you are not planning to see Episode III. I can't understand why anyone who does not like the prequels would want to see Episode III.
  6. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    "I hate SW because of all the hype. I'll stick to independent films like Y Tu Mama Tambien." Um...first of all, what hype? AOTC was the most underhyped summer blockbuster I've ever seen. Second of all, AOTC is an independent film.

    So what's wrong with the underhype? I thought it was supposed to be wiser that George scaled back considerably. Compared to TPM, yes, it seems underwhelming in terms of hype. But compared to a standard summer film, AOTC still got a ton of hype. In fact, I was sick of seeing all the magazine covers with Natalie (I think she's a boring actress, but that's for another thread) and before I was a spoiler hound, I had to dart away from television shows that featured anything AOTC. The A&E channel re-ran every Biography special on any actor related to Star Wars.

    What you see as under-hype I see as the same ol hype. And Lucasfilm didn't have to pay a cent for a lot of it. The networks chose to feature AOTC.

    The thing is, I don't want to put words into anyones mouth, but are you suggesting that the "underhype" of AOTC is bad? Did it hurt the box office or something? If not, why mention the underhype like it was something criminal?
  7. jed-eye Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2000
    star 2
    Shelly:
    "No it isn't, and are you perhaps clairvoyant?"

    LOL!

    "Why are you hanging around here since you hate TPM and AOTC? Why not move on to something you do like?"

    i hang around here because i love star wars. i may not like the prequels but i do love everything else in the GFFA. the OT, the book, games and toys. i hang around the EPII boards 'cause, like everyone else, i like speculating on what will happen next.

    jedi-jeff, i'm going to see episode III but i will not have the same expectations i did for TPM and AOTC. i've already been let down twice. i wanted to love these movies desperately but i just can't bring myself to say that they are as good as the OT. but i am hoping that EPIII will be good. maybe the criticisms that AOTC got will finally give the bearded one the insentive to write better. maybe he'll stop being a merchandising mogul and rediscover the human touch that he was once had.
  8. skillmatic Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2002
    i think that some people are so strong in their devotion for star wars that they can't fathom disliking anything about the new trilogy. so much so, that they can't even understand how anyone else could possibly dislike the PT.

    this may be why they're blaming widespread criticism of the PT on the viewers -- "they're not smart enough to understand the complex plot"/"they're not star wars fans"/"all they want is explosions and slow motion action shots" -- with little or none of the blame falling on the storytellers (director, writers, actors, artists, etc).

    well, one of the first things i learned on my way to a masters degree in professional writing (not gloating, just presenting authority to speak on the subject) was that if your work isn't communicating effectively to your target audience, it's your fault, not theirs. can you imagine if microsoft designed a major piece of software that received as much public criticism as TPM or AOTC and they blamed it on the users intelligence or attention span? at some point, you have to take responsibility for your work and people's reaction/response to it.

    i'm not saying that TPM and AOTC are bad films or that every ounce of criticism they've received has been warranted. i'm saying that if the general consensus is that jar jar is annoying or the dialogue in the love scenes is unnatural or certain elements of the story are hard to understand, at least SOME of the blame for that (i would argue a GREAT DEAL of the blame) rests directly on lucas. it's his story, his movies, and he has control over probably 95% or more of what ends up on the screen. so if his PT isn't connecting with the general public the way many feel it should or something about AOTC is confusing a lot of people, most of the blame for that is his. not the public's.
  9. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    We undersrtand why you don't like the PT, but We don't think that you really understand why.

    It starts with putting the OT on a ridiculously high pedestal, ignoring all the flaws in the first three movies. Add to that not being able to accpt the fact hat Lucas is making the story he wants, rather than checking off a laundry list of fanboy fantasies.

    I (kind of) understan why some people don't like the PT.

    What I don't understand is why they would spend so much time and energy wallowing in their dislike, rather than tryign to understand why other people LIKE the new movies.



  10. Brodie123 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2002
    star 1
    "We undersrtand why you don't like the PT, but We don't think that you really understand why.

    It starts with putting the OT on a ridiculously high pedestal, ignoring all the flaws in the first three movies. Add to that not being able to accpt the fact hat Lucas is making the story he wants, rather than checking off a laundry list of fanboy fantasies."

    Yoda fighting with a lightsaber wasn't a fanboy fantasy that Lucas delivered? Double edged lightsaber wasn't either? Please. With almost the entire prequel trilogy he has been granting fanboys their fantasies, and ended up making TPM and AotC, in my humble opinion, rubbish.

    The first three movies were flawed sure, but they were far and away better than the prequel movies. What is "yea, well, the OT was just as bad as the PT" the new excuse now for Lucas' new found mediocrity? Please. Like I said, the first three movies of the OT where much better than the PT's so far, even ask those critics you hate so very much.

    True, Lucas is making the story he wants, but he is also making a story that he wants to show the public. If Lucas wants to be selfish and make a movie only for his personal giddiness, no matter the mediocrity, then he is going to be in for a big suprise when Episode III is barely successful. Lucas owes all paying Star Wars fans something, he owes them a quality movie. If I pay $15 to go to see Star Wars, I expect it to be as good as he says. If it is not, I have every right to complain.

  11. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Brodie 123,

    "Please"? "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." :D (Can never pass up an opportunity to quote a little Princess Bride.)
  12. Gilgamesh2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2001
    star 2
    I hate it, so I must be stupid as well.

    I'd rather be labeled stupid, then as one who like AOTC.
  13. abmccray Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    ((Yoda fighting with a lightsaber wasn't a fanboy fantasy that Lucas delivered? Double edged lightsaber wasn't either? Please. With almost the entire prequel trilogy he has been granting fanboys their fantasies, and ended up making TPM and AotC, in my humble opinion, rubbish. ))

    I agree with this to quite some degree. All of the praise for the prequel trilogy is DIRECTLY tied in to nostaliga or the merits of the OT. In fact you can surmize to some degree that the gross of the PT does not come from the merits of those two movies alone, but on how wide reaching and appealing the OT was.

    I wish there was some way to see how well these movies would do without the SW name on them and with no nostalgic-based connections.
  14. Jedi-Hosinsul Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 1
    You are not supposed to "get" the movie completely. This is the way serials back in the old days were played out. Each new episode gave more info until you finally figured out what was going on. This is how you are supposed to feel regarding the PT. Once EPIII is released then everything is explained and now you move on to the good guys going after the bad guys. As fans, we know what is going to happen in the end but the average movie goer does not remember or care about the OT enough to watch it before they see this one. They want to see a stand alone movie that tells you everything you need to know when seeing that movie. Does this make the audience stupid. Absolutely no, they just don't want to go see a movie that is a serial anymore. That is why this movie is truly a fan based movie. To make these movies more accessible then GL should have made the plot more basic but more so he should have each movie trail the other by no more than 2 years with 1 year being the best (just like LOTR).
  15. Gilgamesh2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2001
    star 2
    The average movie goer is see AOTC cause of the OT, not the other way around.

    EpIII who cares at this point if it ties up the loose ends, unless of course you are a die hard fan.
  16. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Attak uf the klons roks cus theres lots of eksploshuns.
  17. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    JEED EYE-- You are a brave soul making those statements on these forums. I was waiting for someone like SHELLEY to tell you to leave, since she believes as a "true" fan she owns the forum and can tell people who are not worthy to get out. You response to her ridiculous post was great. I was never caught up in the TPM fervor that took lots of people. I did not enter TPM with any grand expectations except that I would see a good film. I loved the OT like you, and thought the PT would be a good modern day compliment to it. I did not know any spoilers going in. And I was dissapointed, to put it mildly. Understanding the plot and politics was not a problem.

    I agree with you that soon, people will fall out of the AOTC rush and come back to reality somewhat. The movie had many flaws. First and foremost, the horrible editing job done throughout that led to every duel being hacked to 5-10 seconds and having the Anakin's emotional turning point being constantly interrupted with snippets of Obi Wan's detective job. I will not even comment on the romance scenes. And I could fly the Millienium Falcon throught the holes in the plot.

    SKILLMATIC -- And you're right too. No one wants to blame the director for dissatisfaction with the movie. I don't understand why people on here insist on telling others why they disiked AOTC. It's pointless, and never correct. If you loved AOTC, great. If not, then listen to what people say and respond. The example about Microsoft is on the money.

    Skillmatic, great name by the way. Illmatic is one of my favorite albums.

    These disucssion are not going to stop. And like Jed Eye predicted, I think they are only going to grow as time goes on.
  18. Jedi-Hosinsul Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 1
    I agree that people go to see the PT because of the OT but they are not necessarily huge fans that no every detail. Besides I am not talking about these people. What I am talking about is the fact that when people see this they are not supposed to understand it. There are many people who went to see this movie and are only marginal OT fans. They just remember the effects and thought it was a fun set of movies. Then they go and see AOTC and don't put 2 and 2 together not because they are stupid but because they have not watched the OT in years.
  19. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Jabba,

    Attak uf the klons roks cus theres lots of eksploshuns.

    This spoken by a guy who calls himself, "Jabbadabbado." :D Irony? I want to see your intellect and that magnificient vocabulary of yours, not, Attak uf the klons roks cus theres lots of eksploshuns.

    lol
  20. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    It's alright to like or dislike the film. All I ask is that the folks who post in this thread make a more concerted effort to stray away from a traditional basher/gusher effort. I see it becoming that, which is ashame.
  21. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    JEED EYE-- You are a brave soul

    Funny how you prove my point...bashers like to think of themselves as brave souls "daring" to say what they say and then getting jumped on.

    Get over yourself and your martyr complex. You are neither brave nor persecuted.

    making those statements on these forums. I was waiting for someone like SHELLEY to tell you to leave, since she believes as a "true" fan she owns the forum and can tell people who are not worthy to get out.

    Ah, so you're clairvoyant too?

    You response to her ridiculous post was great.

    I've been banned for saying less insulting things.
  22. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    i hang around here because i love star wars. i may not like the prequels but i do love everything else in the GFFA. the OT, the book, games and toys.

    Then why not hang out on the forums devoted to them--the things you do like, instead of spreading your hatred on this board?

    i hang around the EPII boards 'cause, like everyone else, i like speculating on what will happen next.

    Then why not go to the Episode III Spoilers/Non-Spoilers forums?

    jedi-jeff, i'm going to see episode III but i will not have the same expectations i did for TPM and AOTC. i've already been let down twice. i wanted to love these movies desperately

    Doesn't sound like it.

    but i just can't bring myself to say that they are as good as the OT. but i am hoping that EPIII will be good. maybe the criticisms that AOTC got will finally give the bearded one the insentive

    Incentive?

    to write better.

    Would criticism give you the incentive to spell better and to learn how to use the shift key?

    maybe he'll stop being a merchandising mogul

    Merchandising mogul? Please demonstrate how he became a merchandising mogul.

    and rediscover the human touch that he was once had.

    Rediscover the human touch that he was once had? What does that mean?
  23. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    The average movie goer is see AOTC cause of the OT, not the other way around.

    Post proof or retract.

    EpIII who cares at this point if it ties up the loose ends, unless of course you are a die hard fan.

    Post proof or retract.

  24. Gilgamesh2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2001
    star 2
    "The average movie goer is see AOTC cause of the OT, not the other way around.

    Post proof or retract.

    EpIII who cares at this point if it ties up the loose ends, unless of course you are a die hard fan.

    Post proof or retract."
    __________________________________________
    Post proof stating otherwise. Or ask the original poster to do the same. Thanks!
  25. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    I'd rather be labeled stupid, then as one who like AOTC.

    I see no problem with that...
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