Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by King Terak, May 25, 2013.
I rewatched The Phantom Menace last night and I discovered that it's the only movie where most of Palpatine's machinations fail him at the end. His only victory in the movie was becoming Supreme Chancellor, and I don't think that that was his only end game. The situation on Naboo was probably meant to escalate into something far greater than what it was, and Palpatine didn't count on Padme's idealism that ultimately liberated Naboo and nearly ruined the Trade Federation, not to mention his losing Maul. The only reason he wasn't ultimately defeated is because he was able to keep his identity a secret, and I personally believe that Nute Gunray might have tried to sell him out if he felt he had to, so he was damn lucky in that regard.
Even though I already love him in Ep. 1, seeing the movie's outcome in this fashion helped me gain an appreciation for him even more, as it paints him as not this guy who gets away with everything with ease, but as someone who gambles with his plots and still has a chance of losing, even though he is able to take his losses and turn them to his advantage. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if the victory on Naboo set him back a bit as far as his plotting goes.
I see many of the same things when I watch the movie and it is one of the reasons it's my favorite of the prequels. I believe the Naboo crisis was supposed to be a more drawn out affair. The Queen signs the treaty, it gets ratified by the Senate, and then when the whole affair comes to light about how the Queen was coerced into signing the threaty and many of the top Naboo officials were killed (deleted dialogue from the film reveals that was part of the plan) the Supreme Chancellor's regime is severely weakened and Palpatine gets his sympathy vote. I think this is his plan up to the point where they escape Darth Maul on Tatooine when he then has to altered those plans on the fly. It shows a great flexibility with Palpatine's schemes that I really like.
Sidious didn't plan on all of this but he got more or less what he wanted.
It was the perfect way to expand upon the character after Return of the Jedi. Sidious is simply a shadowy figure who is slowly gaining power in the galaxy. We have no idea what his grand intentions are, but we know he eventually works his way up to Emperor.
Did anyone read Darth Plagueis.
I did. I really liked it in many places. I didn't care for Plagueis still being around or how he died. But still good.
Not yet. Soon.
I liked it and I didn't. I liked it for the depth it gave Sidious, but at the same time, I like to continue to imagine that Sidious was on his own for quite some time after Plagueis' death.
An interesting point. But perhaps think about it this way. Are Palpatine's ultimate plans thwarted? He does not mind losses if his overall design is taking place. Don't forget, at the end of TPM, the Jedi now know about the Sith. This is his intention so he can ultimately bring them into a War that will confuse them and bring about their demise so he can take over.
I always felt he seemed really smug and pleased with himself on his return to Naboo. He had achieved what he wanted and nobody knew it:
He's sort of like the forgotten villain in the Phantom Menace.
Not yet, i own it, but haven't read it yet
Yeah. Whenever people whine that Darth Maul should've survived TPM and been a big villain throughout all of the Prequels, it just makes me cringe. It's like complaining that Oddjob should've lived through "Goldfinger" to menace Bond again. He's the henchman, not the mastermind (should we be clamoring for more of steel-toothed Jaws?).
This. I find it maddening when people complain that the PT didn't have one overarching villain throughout like Vader in the OT. Darth Sidious/Palpatine is the overarching villain (and a damn good one) and Maul is a secondary villain just like Tarkin, Boba Fett, Jabba the Hutt.
Palpatine is a better overarching villain than Vader, in that Vader always has some nobility and sympathy to him, even in ANH, and as such he's never a pure bad guy. Tarkin is much more a true villain.
As for Maul-- he's more of a legitimate cool bad guy in his one appearance than Boba Fett was in two movies. All he does in ESB is stand around-- true, if special-effects were more advanced he would've done more, but he's really nothing more than a Stormtrooper with a cooler outfit. At least Maul does stuff.
Ironically, maybe you didn't realize that Bond villains did persist from film to film... Blofeld/SPECTRE were in From Russia With Love, Thunderball, You Only Live Twice, On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Diamonds Are Forever, and Never Say Never Again. Even in the new movies Mr. White appears in both Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace.
My opinion is that Maul is a throw-away mustache-twirler and Dooku is underdeveloped. My vote is to combine them.
That's actually an interesting thought...and maybe explains why Maul became so popular amongst some.
I'll agree with one thing here: I wish Count Dooku could have had more screentime and been developed more. I wouldn't combine the characters but I do wish the scene in AOTC with Obi-Wan and Jocasta Nu talking about Dooku would have been kept and I wish that the scene with him interrogating Padme was also kept. That said I still love his character.
No, I realize that. Blofeld and Mr. White persisting from film to film are perfect examples of how you can have a long-term mastermind villain and disposable henchmen and underlings-- like Palpatine, they survive through the series, and outsource death to others. Even Mads Mikkelson's great Le Chiffre executed in "Casino Royale". If one movie was good enough for Le Chiffre, it's good enough for a glorified hitman like Maul.
I've always seen Tarkin as the main villain of ANH, while Vader has a role more similar to Maul.
Yeah I can see that. Still my point was that even the OT had several one off villains and it was not something the PT started.
I liked Sidious very much in TPM... not so much in ROTS.
Wasn't Christopher Lee's scheduling/desire for smaller but important roles what gave Dooku such a limited amount of appearances?
I haven't seen him in many films recently aside from the LOTR trilogy where he doesn't just appear here and there or just have one appearance.
hmm...I dont' think so. The ATOC story kept him unseen for quite a while to keep him ambiguous, while he had to be killed off early in ROTS to build up to Anakin's seduction by Sidious.
Dooku was a fine villain for what he was. He and Grievous are some of the best things that came of the PT.