Lucas admits he made it up as he went

I don't know if the communication with Obi-Wan works as an explanation all the time though. In ROTJ, when Luke is on the Imperial shuttle to Endor, Vader is certainly able to sense him, even though he's not speaking with Obi-Wan. And Luke may be reaching out to Leia, but she's also able to pinpoint his exact location which to me suggests at least some use of the Force on her part, though I suppose it could be all Luke's doing. I don't know. I've always been fond of this explanation as the reason why Luke was immediately picked up by Vader in ANH but Leia wasn't. Just that they have different strengths in the Force. I concede there isn't much evidence to support my theory though.

 

Is there something offensive in the notion that Leia can do something Luke can't, besides wearing a skimpy slave outfit, that is? Because that is how it's coming across. Clearly, the Force is a powerful, dynamic entity in Star Wars, capable of giving a guy images of his mother suffering half-way across the galaxy, years after he last saw her. Whatever else the Force can or can't do, the fact that it can do that much is pretty compelling, I think; and reason enough for believing that some individuals are privileged (or afflicted, depending on your POV) over others, given the right (or wrong) circumstances. What I see and hear from the other side about this is, in my estimation, token bigotry, rooted in willful ignorance. "The Force can do this, but it CAN'T do this!" You come across as pre-Enlightenment ecclesiastics convinced that the Earth is at the centre of the universe.

 

Its simply easier to see Leia's memory of her mother as a plot hole than it is to change one's preconceptions on the meaning of her line. Its also a great excuse to invalidate Lucas's vision and the prequels.

 

^ I heartily agree with the two posts above this.

 

I'm sure Luke could wear a skimpy slave outfit if he wanted to.

However, "Leia could do something Luke can't" is not the solution. It's all the same Force.

The crucial difference is that Leia was raised by someone who had been close to Padme.

Luke wasn't.

 

Images, Fenn! Images!

(And feelings).

He was very beautiful in that slave outfit. Kind ... but sad.

The same Force, which is subject to disturbances, vergences, shrouding, etc., as well as apparently giving people different insights at different times. That's sort of what I meant by using the word "dynamic": as in, marked by continual variance and change.

Eh? Bail Organa? He wasn't that close to Padme, really.

Well, he was at least befriended and mentored by Obi-Wan Kenobi for some time, who knew Padme fairly well.

* * *

But you're going off the issue.

This isn't about who did or didn't raise Leia or Luke.

It's about perception. Leia's perception. Granted through the Force.

It's not hard, but many fans insist it is, for some odd reason.

 

Leia does remember Padme, the movie is very clear here.
Luke asks IF Leia remembers her real mother and Leia responds ?Just a little bit..?
So she very clearly does remember her mother but not all that much.
Luke then asks WHAT she remembers and then she answers ?images, feelings really?.
That type of memory is consistent with early memories when you can remember a face, a room, a house or strong feelings. Typical of children 1-3 years old. More specific memories come much later, 4-6 years old, when you can place yourself into the memory and what you did and when it happened.

The Force explanation seems contrived and causes further questions. Like why Luke has not gotten any of these ?Force memories? of either Anakin or Padme. Or did Leia get Padme?s entire life story or did she just remember her own birth? Or why she thinks of these things as actual memories. Every other person that has seen things through the Force have been very clear that these things were visions or dreams, not real memories of things that he or she did. Basically the Force comes along and gives Leia memories she should not have and the only reason seems to be to avoid a plot inconsistency.
Leia?s ?memories? of Padme seemed to have had no impact on Leia?s life or her choices or her character so what point is served by the Force giving them to her?
It seems like the Force is just making her believe that she actually knew her mother when she really did not.

If she just relates what other people have told her or info from photos then she would say ?I do not remember my mother at all but I have seen her photo and my father said she was kind but sad.? I have no memory of my great grandfather but I have seen a photo of him and my mother have described him. So my memories are me looking at his photo and what my mother told me, not that I actually knew him. Also it begs the question why Bail would tell her anything when secrecy was so important.

Bottomline, RotJ gives a quite clear impression of what happened and using scripts and so on we know what Lucas idea was at the time. Lucas is free to change his mind but when it causes an inconsistency you can hardly blame the audience for noticing it.
And I do know of some people that watched SW 1-6 and they did notice the inconsistency. It hardly a deal breaker for them but they were aware of it.

Regards
Nordom

 

Let me make this real simple for you:

ANH

OBI-WAN: Reach out with your feelings!

TESB

VADER: Search your feelings!

ROTJ

LEIA: Just ... images, really. Feelings.


* * *


The watch-word, "feelings", makes it clear that Leia is using the Force.

These are just my feelings. I hope you have a feel for what I say. I have a feeling you do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyBcHUe4WeQ

 

That question has already been addressed.

Why does there have to be a point? What point is served by the Force helping Luke find a lost screwdriver? This line of questioning seems to presume that Force use on the part of a Force-sensitive must be an act of the Force itself as opposed to an act of the user.

She knew she was adopted, but Bail did not divulge the truth of her parentage to her. ROTJ makes that clear.

He was by ROTS - at a time when she was "kind but sad" almost exactly as described in ROTJ.

Unless it is.

 

Leia is asked if she remembers her mother and directly responds by saying ?Just a little bit.? So she very clearly DOES remember her mother. No ifs and buts about it.

Memories can be in the form of images. Otherwise people would have a hard time finding their car or recognizing their friends and co-workers. Memories can also be in the form of feelings like sadness over the memory of a lost love, joy over the memory of a happy time.

Or is the use of the word ?feeling? always indicates that the Force is used?
Han says ?I?ve got a bad feeling about this? so is he using the Force here?
Or when he says ?She expressed her true feelings for me? is the Force in play here as well?

Lastly I very much doubt that anyone who saw RotJ in 83, or prior to 05, made the connection that Leia is using the Force in this scene. Even afterwards there is still considerable question how her words fit with what is shown in RotS. Hence this and other threads.

Regards
Nordom

 

There certainly have been replies in this thread but while all answers are replies, not all replies are anwers. The logic seems to be that since Leia is a woman she would get memories of her mother. Luke is a man but he still does not get any memories of his father.
Or Leia follows in her mother?s footsteps so she would get memories but again Luke follows in his father?s footsteps and he still gets nothing.
Or Leia spent time with persons who knew her mother and that is why she gets these ?Force memories?. First it sounds like an odd requirement from the Force, unless you are close to people who knew someone, you can not get implanted memories of that someone.
Also Owen and Beru had met Anakin and Padme and that did not help Luke, and don?t forget Obi-Wan, he was nearby and he knew Anakin and Padme quite well.

It has been suggested that it was the Force itself that came along and gave Leia these memories. So since it was a deliberate act by the Force then the question is why. Also there are no throwaway lines in a movie, esp towards the end. So the lines serve some purpose, again what?

How do you know that she did not know who her mother was? That she did not know that Vader was her father is clear but we have no idea if she knew who her real mother was. Since she knew what she looked like and knew when she died it sounds like she had a fair idea about who she was.

Regards
Nordom

 

I think the ultimate question here is not "How did Leia remember her mother?" It is "Why didn't Luke?" Perhaps, it's because Leia's family talked to her about her real mother, while Luke's family didn't.

Leia's adoptive family kept her memories intact. Luke forgot them.

 

YES! YES! AND YES! You finally got it!
If the dark side can be summed up in one phrase, "bad feelings" would be it. And there's really only one true feeling in the universe. I'll give you a hint. It's a four letter word, and its not "FEAR".

 

'Hate'?

 

To the former, yes. It's a Jedi phrase and Han is using it unconsciously, just as he uses the Force unconsciously to dodge Greedo's laser shot and fly the Falcon through an asteroid field. "Let go your conscious self and act on instinct". To the latter, no. He's trying to get under Leia's skin; but really, he's unconsciously saying that Leia has gotten under his. Then again, this must also be a "yes". The Force is always "in play" in SW ... that's what makes it the Force. How long have you been a fan of these movies?

 

"Lust"?

 

Ah, so when Anakin is saying ?I wish I could wish away my feelings? then he really wants to get ride of his Force powers. Or when he says ?How are you feeling today?? he really asks if the Force is with them. And when Yoda says ?seeing you alive brings warm feelings to my heart? he really means he gets stronger in the Force when Padme is there.
Or when Obi-Wan says ?I have a strong feeling this bounty hunter is the assassin we are looking for? then he has not figured that out, the Force just told him.
Or when Owen says ?I had a feeling you would show up some day? then that shows he is Force sensitive. Or when Dack says ?Are you feeling alright?? he really asks if the Force is with Luke.
Perhaps the line should really be;
?I wish I could wish my FORCE away? and ?How are you FORCE today?? and ?Seeing you alive bring warm FORCE to my heart? and ?I had a FORCE you would show up one day??

If the Force is in play everywhere why then is the word ?feelings? more significant than the word ?ship? or ?general? or committee? or ?just? or son? or ?use??
Leia could then say anything and you would interpret that as the Force has done something. She could say ?Car, turbine and bicycle? and that would be evidence that the Force had given her something. Hey why stop there? Since feelings is a cue that the Force is involved then perhaps Han and Leia does not really love each other, the Force just tells them to. Perhaps Luke attempts to save his father is not his own idea, he just does what the Force is telling him.

Bottomline, the Force can be used and overused.

Regards
Nordom

 

Sorry man. In these movies the Force is associated with both good feelings and bad feelings and its not just a magic trick.

 

Please don't open up that can of worms....oop. Too late.

Ah...that old classic.

Right. It's also a 'deus ex machina'..or, a 'puppet-master', pulling all the 'strings'.

Nordom has it right. The force can be used or, in this case, OVERused: becoming a character/actor/player itself in the story, rather than being something used by the characters in the story.

 

I may be misinterpreting things, but it seems that the people in this thread who are upset with Lucas "making it up as he went along" are also for the most part the posters who dislike the prequels, while the people who don't mind are mostly those who like the prequels.

Interesting coincidence, that!

 

I have no problem with Lucas making it up as he went. What I have a problem with is when he spouts off nonsense like SW has always been "The Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker" or otherwise justifying story problems with the suggestion that the story we got is the same it's been since 1977.

 

That is not my belief.

Obi-Wan had very little direct contact with Luke, while Owen and Beru had very little contact with Padme.

It doesn't have to be a deliberate act by the Force. My post drew a distinction between acts of the Force and acts of Force users.

That would be answered by the original context.

You were the one who said: Also it begs the question why Bail would tell her anything when secrecy was so important. It should be clear that Bail did not tell her anything that should have remained secret.

 

QFT.

 

Well, we know he made certain things up as he went. Its obvious. Even though I'm not sure which "problems" you're referring to this time, why would the implication that GL had planned it since 77 justify what you deem problematic? Lets say that sometime before he made ESB he decided he would make a movie or a set of movies about the fall of the Galactic Republic set out in the prologue to the Star Wars novelization. Don't you think that it would involve Luke's father and Darth Vader? I've always taken his alleged plan "Tragedy of Darth Vader" story as a selling point based on fuzzy truths, not as a cover-up for the unexpected developments of the OT or the PT.