Lucas and his right to make TPM (and the rest) his way.

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Go-Mer-Tonic, Sep 10, 2002.

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  1. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    The cunning warrior also holds off Dooku admirably, after being forced to take on a superior opponent alone when his partner is disabled. This when he's been shocked with Force-lightning (yes, due to his foolhardiness).

    Again, the cunning warrior gleefully chooses to ignore the advice of his master and rush headlong into battle, before any other action occurs. That isn't cunning, it's reckless. His master is wounded as a result of his action, and he attempts to save his master's life. That isn't cunning, it's survival instinct. He then presses the attack against an obviously superior opponent. That isn't cunning, it's folly.

    Anakin also shows cunning when it comes to rescuing Shmi. Up until she dies, that is. Much as is the case with Vader, Anakin has one major flaw as a tactician: his temper. He is cunning until he loses his temper, and it is getting increasingly hard for him to control his temper.

    His subterfuge is a possible instantiation of "cunning" but it's little more than glorified stealth. Using the enemies fortifications against them is cunning. Turning an enemy's weapon against him is cunning. Turning a disadvantage into an advantage is cunning. He sneaks in and then flies into a fury. That isn't cunning.

    The "general" hasn't been declared a "general" yet, because the Clone Wars have just begun at the end of AOTC. The "general" hasn't even had the chance to interact with the man he supposedly served because the Clone Wars have just begun at the end of AOTC.

    Ergo, we haven't seen "General Kenobi" on-screen, and there is no guarantee that we will see it in Ep. III. Which is what I said earlier.

    What WOULD be enough to "justify" the characterizations to you?

    The tactician alluded to in ANH. The general of an army alluded to in ANH. Characterization continuity between the OT and the PT. Not too much to ask for, I'm afraid, and certainly not what has been given to us thusfar. Again, this could change in Ep. III, but there is so much ground that GL will have to cover that the likelihood of these necessary bits occurring is slim.
  2. CeeJay Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    Lucas has the right to make the films his way because they are HIS FILMS. But we as fans of the originals have the right to voice our opinions and express our dislikes because we are the ones he expects to make money out of! naturally these films don't make sense because they hav never been fully concieved or planned out before being made. They never have a proper shooting script until weeks before shooting and even after they release the final scripts, those final scripts are baised on the scenes they chose to shoot and mostly use before the editing process and not what they started out with before shooting the flick.

    When so many people come away with so many fingers pointing as so many inconsistencies and things that don't make sense then it's no wonder the films get poor reviews. They are terribly writtena and edited. But that's okay because a majority of SW fans don't really care about stuff like that, they'd settle for any excuse that will patch up the wholes rather than realise that their actually was a hole there in the first place! Of course Luke and Liea where never meant to be related otherwise Lucas wouldn't have had Luke getting the hots for her in ANH and loving the fulltongue on tongue action she gave him in TESB, that alone should make you realise the whole PT is made up as he goes simply to validify and coincide with the brother and sister thing that only came about becasue he wanted to make ROTJ the last film.

    Vader was eager to get Luke to join him and defeat the Emperor so they can rule the Galaxy as father and son in TESB, less than four months later in ROTJ he is crossing swords with his son defending the Emperor from Lukes attempt at his life. How does that make sense? How does it make sense that four months agao Luke couldn't beat Vader with anger and agression but now he does using more anger and agression and no further training? How does it make sense that Obi Wan in his early years can block Force lightning with his sabre, Yoda can block it with his hands and yet Anakin the most potentially powerfull of the lot gets burned and Luke gets deep fried and he's supposed to be almost if not even more powerfull? How can it take an average jedi 20 years to learn all the skills involved in being a Jedi, it takes Anakin 10 but it takes Luke only three years alone and a few months under temporary tutilage in a swamp to supposedly become the greatest Jedi of all?

    The first two OT films followed along some level of a plan, they were good (SW:ANH & TESB). The last of the OT films (ROTJ) was the result of a collpsing of the last three unmade films into one so as to end the series which is why it's shabby in comparisson and makes little sense! The PT films are a shabby attempt to vindicate the sloppy aspects of ROTJ. None of it was planned from the start or made strictly to any fully written script which is why they fail to hold water whe you watch them and this is why GL plans to change history again and go back to the OT after finishing Ep 3 so as to change things and try even further to plug up some holes!

    It's his films and he can do what he wants to them as is his right, but honestly speaking there are better planned and filmed movies out there that never need that much revision or contain so many holes!
  3. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    It used to be that fans liked the films.
  4. CeeJay Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    It used to be that the films were good enough to be liked!
  5. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Some people felt all the SW movies were so bad they couldn't be liked. Welcome to their "better" sense of taste.
  6. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Oh god can you stop this stupid argument.

    Star Wars has not changed.
    The fans and the world around us has CHANGED.

    George Lucas is still making his vision his way and in the same way as the OT. Yes we have all these special effects and CGI characters.
    No film can entertain us all. Lucas isn't even trying to do that. He is just making his movies and if you like well good for you.
    What it does show is that you aren't entertained any longer by George Lucas' story. Yes you can watch the OT with its lame dialogue, hardly great acting and questionable quality and say its great, but you see the same things in the prequels, lame dialogue, hardly great acting and questionable quality, and have a hard accepting it.

    Anyway I posted something in the Ep3 NS forum which is similar.

  7. hoth-nudist Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2000
    star 3
    Ekenobi wrote "you do not know this. It could have happened before obiwan took him on as a padawan. In between ep1 and ep2. yoda was telling him he was going to be his apprentice but maybe still had to go through the regular procedure before he actually took him.""I think lucas knows qhat he is doing . If you cannot understand this maybe SW is too complicated for you."

    Wake up genius! This is just another example of GL's poor writing. And you dont know it either. What you think and what GL knows are two totally different things. When one goes away having to assume what happens 'in the meantime' just raises more questions and creates more plot holes. When I chat SW with 'minor' fans they are under the impression that obi-wan was trained by ONLY yoda and Anakin was trained by ONLY obiwan. My friends are confused by the racketeering in GL's pathetic plot.
  8. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I think this has more to do with poor comprehension skills than anything else.

    Lucas flat out shows us that Qui-Gon Jinn took him on as a Padawan Learner, and while this is happening, Obi-Wan brings up what "Yoda always said". If you aren't swift enough to figure this out from just that, Obi-Wan flat out says that Yoda instructed him in ESB. When you say the "casual" fans you spoke to thought Yoda was Obi-Wan's one and only teacher, they thought wrong.

    I can see why they could assume this before seeing the prequels, but now that the prequels are here to show us what really went down, it becomes time to replace that erronious assumption in thier head with how it really was.

    That is if they care about Star Wars at all.
  9. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    It's kind of too bad how the hatred of bashers drives them to skew people's perspectives on the movies by slamming Lucas instead of explaining that yes, Yoda did train Obi Wan, and Qui Gon took over. Obi Wan didn't mention Qui Gon to Luke on Hoth because what would've been the point? Qui Gon was dead. What's the point of mentioning a dead Jedi master when he needs to tell Luke about a live one?

  10. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    I think this has more to do with poor comprehension skills than anything else.

    Lucas flat out shows us that Qui-Gon Jinn took him on as a Padawan Learner, and while this is happening, Obi-Wan brings up what "Yoda always said". If you aren't swift enough to figure this out from just that, Obi-Wan flat out says that Yoda instructed him in ESB. When you say the "casual" fans you spoke to thought Yoda was Obi-Wan's one and only teacher, they thought wrong.

    I can see why they could assume this before seeing the prequels, but now that the prequels are here to show us what really went down, it becomes time to replace that erronious assumption in thier head with how it really was.

    That is if they care about Star Wars at all.


    It took you two edits to turn out that inflammatory nonsense, Go-Mer? Please.

    But then, of course, there is the fact that you don't really believe anything that you write here, so I shouldn't really be surprised.

    EDIT:

    Obi Wan didn't mention Qui Gon to Luke on Hoth because what would've been the point? Qui Gon was dead. What's the point of mentioning a dead Jedi master when he needs to tell Luke about a live one?

    Little things like on-screen continuity, the lack of a teacher-apprentice relationship between the two (because by extension we could make the claim that Mace Windu and Ki-Adi-Mundi taught OB1 as well, if all we're concerned about is formative wisdom), revisionist history, and the like.
  11. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    It's kind of too bad how the low expectations and easy pleasing of some fans are letting the saga go down the drain.
  12. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    No really, you are just oblivious to the substance of the prequels.
  13. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    "It's kind of too bad how the hatred of bashers drives them to skew people's perspectives on the movies by slamming Lucas instead of explaining that yes, Yoda did train Obi Wan, and Qui Gon took over."

    It's kind of too bad how the blind loyalty of the Lucas apologists drives them to skew their own perspectives to the point where it becomes my job to explain away the inconsistencies and discontinuities that make TPM's already muddled plot nearly incomprehensible to a casual viewer.
  14. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    I guess that would all depend in how you look at it.

    If you are not responsible for something, and you choose to feel guilty about that, that makes you mature -- how?
  15. B4DaDrkX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2002
    star 1
    It's too bad Lucas didn't get someone else to write the TPM script!
  16. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    HE IS RESPONSIBLE, BECAUSE HE DID IT.

    Is this thing turned on?

    -tap -tap -tap...
  17. B4DaDrkX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2002
    star 1
    He should feel guilty then! A man should take responsiblity for his mistakes! :D
  18. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Looked like a partnership and friendship to me.

    Obi-won and Anakin? Outside of the elevator (a very short scene), when did we ever see them getting along or talking well about each other? (Oh, sure, Anakin makes that comment about how great Obi-won was to Padme, then proceeds to rip into Obi-won with his next breath.)


    "If the rumors are to be believed, a majority of the Clone Wars will be off-screen as well."

    Big deal. The Clone Wars are incidental.


    "Incidental"?? Palpatine starts a major galaxy war with the hopes of using it to conquer the known galaxy and topple the Republic (successfully so as we saw in 1977), and that's "incidental"??
  19. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    HE IS RESPONSIBLE, BECAUSE HE DID IT.

    Lucas said that Anakin falls to the darkside because he (Anakin) ultimately fails to take responsiblity for his own action (exactly what actions he's talking about will become apartent in the next film, no doubt). Thus, Anakin is responible for his own failings. Now that we've established that Lucas disagrees with you, Go-Mer, answer the question: How does Obi-won's taking the responsiblity upon himself make him mature?
  20. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    Hey, you got a movie full of Jar-Jar, a video-game pod race, and cartoon character gungans fighting cartoon droids! How ungrateful! :p

    Who needs those Clone Wars anyway? 10 minutes of the Ben Hur chariot race is waaaaay more important. ;)

    Hopefully in the TPM Special Edition, Lucas will add 5 or 6 more laps to the podrace! [face_plain]
  21. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Anakin has already been shown not taking responsibility for his own actions in Episode II.

    Anakin misses out on the fundamental training most Padawan's get in their first 7-9 years of their life. There are rules about not being able to train a Padawan after a certain age, but Obi-Wan thought he could give Anakin a crash course all on his own.

    That is the mistake he owns up to in ROTJ.

    And no, Lucas does not disagree with me.
  22. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    i hate to break it to you gome, but lucas doesnt even know you, let alone disagree with you.
  23. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I didn't say he knew me, but through his interviews, I know he agrees with me here.
  24. Menlu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2001
    star 2
    "It's kind of too bad how the low expectations and easy pleasing of some fans are letting the saga go down the drain."

    Pure opinion. As I've said many times, GL is not the one letting you down on the PT, you are.

    "It's kind of too bad how the blind loyalty of the Lucas apologists drives them to skew their own perspectives to the point where it becomes my job to explain away the inconsistencies and discontinuities that make TPM's already muddled plot nearly incomprehensible to a casual viewer."

    Apologists? This would imply that GL has something to apologize for. He puts out a product made in his vision. How we receive it is purely our choice. We are not owed anything.
    And I found TPM to be quite comprehensible and consistent, actually. Save for the Jabba thing, but that's a minor point.

    "Hey, you got a movie full of Jar-Jar, a video-game pod race, and cartoon character gungans fighting cartoon droids! How ungrateful!"

    Some of us enjoy the more action-based, visual side of movies.

  25. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Apology? How about "sit and spin detractors!"

    The saga will be just fine without your "superior taste".
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