Lucas and his right to make TPM (and the rest) his way.

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Go-Mer-Tonic, Sep 10, 2002.

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  1. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Pure opinion. As I've said many times, GL is not the one letting you down on the PT, you are.

    Pure opinion. As I've said many times, GL is the one letting the fans down.


    Right back at you.
  2. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    The saga will be just fine without your "superior taste".

    They'll be the same (until a special edition) but they will not be just fine.
  3. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Excuse me but how is Lucas letting the fans down?

    He is giving us the prequels, thats not letting us down.
    And who are we to expect anything from him?

    You seem to forget that Star Wars begins and ends with Lucas. Its his story and he will tell it the way he wants. You are just someone that sees the final product whether you like it or not, will not effect Lucas. He will carry on doing what he wants, and I for one am glad he does that.

    On the subject of the whole Obi-Wan saying Yoda trained him and that he should have mentioed Qui-Gon. Well let me say that you dismiss the obvious point that telling Luke about Qui-Gon is pointless at the point in the film, Obi-Wan is trying to get Luke to Yoda, it not the right time to go telling him the past. Yes we'd all like a it continuity but I see the continuity has been fixed by the fact that Yoda trains young Padawans before they go to a Knight or Master.
    And who is to say, forgetting the EU, that Obi-Wan told Luke after ROTJ? There was plenty of time then.
  4. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    It's not that they "forget" how it all makes sense, they just don't care if it makes sense. Their objective is to justify their petty complaints any way they can, reason and logic be damned.

    Sure Hawk, it's a matter of opinion, but one opinion is more unfortunate than the other. And the saga is just fine for the people who enjoy it.
  5. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    I find myself agreeing with Go-Mer. Lucas does have the right to make the films his way, and anyone who likes it is fortunate.

    With every film, though, that group of core "satisfied customers" is getting smaller and smaller. Episode 3 is, allegedly, the last Star Wars movie. That's probably a good thing because Episode 9 would be playing to empty theaters.

    If you love Episodes 1 and 2, I suggest you bury copies in your backyard along with a spare DVD player and a tv, because DVD may be the last home video format the PT ever sees.
  6. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    For every single fan who can't stand a new SW movie, 2 more new fans are born to take their place.

    I know I am not worried about it.
  7. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    So your theory is that although the size of the Star Wars movie audience is declining, the number of fans is actually growing?
  8. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    It's not declining. There are people who are being turned off by the prequels, but there are plenty of new fans to take their place.

    I know I won't miss the disgruntled ones.
  9. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    For every single fan who can't stand a new SW movie, 2 more new fans are born to take their place.

    Then why didn't AOTC make more money then TPM? Unless...unless you are suggesting that the opposite is true, and that for every single fan who likes a new SW movie, 2 old fans are *Gulp* killed!!!???


    OMG, the Gushers are murdering fans!


    Go-Mer-tonic: They're like animals, Officer, and I slaughtered them like animals.
  10. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    For the same reason ESB made less than ANH and ROTJ made less than that.

    It's just the way sequels work.

    And not that you care, but I am not a gusher, I am a fan.
  11. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    There are rules about not being able to train a Padawan after a certain age, but Obi-Wan thought he could give Anakin a crash course all on his own.

    And so did the Council. Yoda said the council agreed with him (Obi-wan), Qui-gon believed he could, only Yoda said he couldn't. However, by AOTC when Ben's starting to think Yoda might have been right, when he starts saying "hey, guys, maybe we shouldn't rush Anakin's training by sending him out on his own like this", what does Yoda do, does he agree with Obi-wan and say "yes, yes! Told you I did, Wreckless is he!"? No, he just agrees with Mace Windu and has him send Anakin on his merry way. So how much fault is Obi-wan at, anyway? He thinks it's his fault because he decided to train someone too old, someone who'd missed those critical years? No. He didn't hesitate to do the same with Luke. Remember, Ben's plan A was to take Luke to Alderaan to train him to be a Jedi, not send him off to Dagobah to make up for the years of training he'd missed. And let's not forget the age problem! Doesn't strike me as someone who was really worried about whether or not he'd had those early "critical" years or not. Not the actions of someone who felt horribly guilty for training someone too old. And you may say "but what choice did he have? Luke was the only one capable of becoming a Jedi." What choice did he have? He could have raised Luke himself and started his training at the age of two like a normal Padawan.

    No, there's no evidence to back your claim, Go-Mer. Ben felt bad because he thought he'd been a crappy teacher, plan and simple, and the PT doesn't show us that. Not only that, but when he starts to realize there is a problem, the council tells him to ignore it!

    Now, admittedly, had Ben listened to Yoda and not QGJ, then disaster might have been averted (or might not, if the Council had decided Anakin needed training, they might have given him to someone else). Ben's only guilty of not heeding Yoda's initial advice, after that, he did the best he could. The rest of the failure lies elsewhere.


    GL is not the one letting you down on the PT, you are.

    OK, maybe Lucas isn't letting us down, but as to the later part of your statment: PPOR


    Some of us enjoy the more action-based

    'Wookie was criticism the cartoon-ish/video game style of TPM, not the ammount of action.


  12. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Okay Stryphe, here is where it suddenly clicks for you.

    Answer this question...

    Who insisted on training Anakin without Yoda's blessing?
  13. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Sure, Ben trained Anakin, but what proof do you have that his training was the reason he fell? I already said, GL says it was because of Anakin's poor choices (and failure to be responsible for them) that he falls. The only bad choice I see a Jedi master make in AOTC (regarding Anakin's training) is to send an ill-prepared student off with a woman he's got a crush on. Who's idea was that? Palp's, Yoda's and Mace's. Who objected? Ben.

    (Also, see above edits. You read too fast).
  14. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    For the same reason ESB made less than ANH and ROTJ made less than that.

    It's just the way sequels work.

    And not that you care, but I am not a gusher, I am a fan.


    Ok, I quoted the whole of Go-Mer's post just in case s/he editted it again.

    Yeah, I know you are "a fan" of SW and of the prequels. Hence the comment:

    Then why didn't AOTC make more money then TPM? Unless...unless you are suggesting that the opposite is true, and that for every single fan who likes a new SW movie, 2 old fans are *Gulp* killed!!!???



    ...although I notice that, whilst you denied being a Gusher, you didn't deny that you have in fact slaughtered fans like animals!!!

    OFFICER!!!

    ;)
  15. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>Sure, Ben trained Anakin, but what proof do you have that his training was the reason he fell? I already said, GL says it was because of Anakin's poor choices (and failure to be responsible for them) that he falls.

    If he wasn't trained, he'd have nowhere to fall from.
  16. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    The point is to take the blame for his own actions, even though he could blame it on everyone else around him.

    That's what makes him mature.

    It's sort of like when you get to the point where you stop blaming who you are on your parents. Sure they raised you, but that doesn't change the fact that you are the one controlling your own actions.
  17. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    I don't "blame" Lucas for his artistic choices in AOTC, I just don't like them.

    I understand AOTC. I get it. I recognize GL's artistic vision for the film and I don't particularly admire it. The film looks to me as though Lucas exhausted all his creative energy on the visual effects and did not have much left over for the script or the actors.
  18. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Well that's just too bad for you then isn't it?
  19. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    I understand AOTC. I get it. I recognize GL's artistic vision for the film and I don't particularly admire it. The film looks to me as though Lucas exhausted all his creative energy on the visual effects and did not have much left over for the script or the actors.

    I agree with Jabba here. AOTC, while very entertaining, plays very much like a well written video game. The asteroid chase itself, particularly the movements of the ships, is so flat out comic book fast that it's silly. I kept waiting for a score counter to crop up in the upper left hand corner of my screen!

    :D
  20. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Not really. Sometimes an artistic failure can be as interesting as an artistic success. AOTC and TPM are fascinating failures as movies, and I enjoy talking about them.

  21. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Again that's just too bad for you isn't it?

    Myself, I prefer to dwell on things I like, it makes me happier.
  22. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    Just look at how many people enjoy talking about huge failures like Ed Wood or Roger Corman's schlock movies. Just because they are lousy, doesn't mean they don't get people talking! :D
  23. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    The thing that is odd about what you are saying is that those movies didn't make out, where the prequels have. They have suceeded, not failed.
  24. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    Independence Day was a huge hit. (Made MORE money than AOTC...both adjusted and unadjusted.) But, people talk about it all the time as one of the biggest failures in recent times (from a writing standpoint). They like to make fun of the terrible dialogue, bad acting, and one dimesional silly characters. Sounds familiar, eh?
  25. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    I just don't see the tragedy that you seem to see Go-Mer. It's not "too bad" for me, since I feel pretty satisfied about embracing the whole of Star Wars - the good along with the bad.

    AOTC is a visually stunning film with moments of inspiration and some ambitious artistic goals. At the same time it's an astounding feat of amateurism in terms of writing and acting. That combination makes it fascinating to me.

    TPM is better and worse. It feels more like a virtuoso piece of broad-based consumer marketing than an actual movie, yet at the same time it has more style and flair than AOTC and is more fun to watch.
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