Lucas and his right to make TPM (and the rest) his way.

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Go-Mer-Tonic, Sep 10, 2002.

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  1. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    he has the RIGHT to make episode 3 a busby-berkely musical if he wants, does that mean it would be the best decision?

    Funny you should mention musical..I was thinking of doing a TPM rewrite....in the form of a musical! Really! :D I still haven't worked everything out yet, and I still don't know if I should post it in this forum or fan fiction (probably the latter, less drama :p). Anyway, I thought of a musical after thinking about how cheerful Anakin the 'slave' was. Only a slave in a musical is that cheerful ;)

    But hey, if Lucas makes any of the movies to a musical, it might be interesting...

    Trivia note: Tim Burton is planning to direct a Batman musical. Ah, perhaps my dream of a Joker/Harley duet will come true!

    [face_mischief]
  2. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Darth Stryphe:

    So then LOTR isn't a good movie? I "willed" it so. Heck, the OT was crap. but I "willed" it otherwise. Indiana Jones? Bah, garbage, but for the lack of anything better to enjoy, I "willed" it into greatness. Hithcock, Spielberg, John Ford -- these aren't great directors, I am entirely responsible for the greatness of their films because of my internal meddling.

    So then DT, if my expectations (which I did have, I won't deny it) ruined TPM, then how come my unmet expectations of LOTR (the movies) didn't ruin them, or my unmet expectations about Spider-Man the movie ruin it?


    If you cared to read what I said I was refering to the PT and your thoughts on the past of Obi-Wan and Anakin.Dont bring in LOTR or any of film into this. I'm being specific to the PT.
  3. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Agentcoop:

    So some people say the "problem" is that we need to move on, while others say that it's the fact that we have moved on...which is it?

    I'd say its a bit of both actually some fans wnt move on while others have and wont recognise it.

    Funny how Lucas isn't supposed to care what we want, but we're supposed to care what he wants.

    I see you misunderstood. LOL should have known. I'm saying that it doesn't matter what we want because its no our story, its Lucas story and what he wants in it matters. You don't have to care about his wants.

    This little paragraph is loaded with so much BS that I don't have a shovel big enough for it. We're back to square one where all of the responsibility for a film's quality lies with the audience and (here's the really laughable part) absolutely none of it lies with the people who actually made the film!!!!!! Did you actually think about that before you posted it? Did I write the film? Did I cast the film? Did I direct the film?

    What I want to know is, if I bear so much of the responsibility for the film's success, then where's my check?


    No no no again you misunderstand what i am saying. LOL this is really bad. I am saying the reason you are disappointed is because you had expectations etc. The quality of the film is subjective and not where i was leading. Several words come to mind.

    The "Nostalgia Factor" is yet another erroneous assumption that has outlasted it's welcome. Guess what? There's a lot of stuff that I loved as a kid that I have long since outgrown. Movies, TV shows, music. "Star Wars" remains about the only thing from my childhood that stayed with me and still holds up to my adult scrutiny. Why? Because the older I got, the more I became able to see the deeper themes that lie beneath the visual pizazz. If you think that is not the same standard by which I should regard the PT then, again, that in itself speaks volumes.

    The nostalgia factor is actually very valid because maybe not you but there are others.
    But something like Star wars takes a while to digest you said yourself that as you grew up you became more appreciative of the deeper themes, that suggest you should give the prequels time before you slate them so harshly.
    As a kid you could enjoy the OT without much problems nd then come to understand the deeper levels as you grew up.
    Problem with the PT? You look at everything as an adult, no longer able to really enjoy the surface details and thus not giving the film enough reflection for the deeper details.

    See, this is one of the paragraphs that confuses me...do you like "Star Wars" or not?

    Yes I like Star Wars, but i recognise its two sides, its good side and its bad side. Although I prefer not to look at the bad side to much (I'm usually forced to look with bashers around). And what i was sayingis how an adult looks at things. I dont view the films as an adult. I look at them as a child and enjoy them as they sould be enjoyed.

    Here, at least, I think you may be on to something. The PT is clearly designed with a new audience in mind. Therein lies the problem: It seems that Lucas has no qualms about subverting "Star Wars" into something that, rather than capture the elegance and style of the OT, panders to a younger audience that is only interested in the latest "kewl" thing. It's a shame. Some of us thought "Star Wars" deserved better.

    Well its obviously designed for a new audience, we aint living in the 1970's anymore. Times have changed. But that didnt stop Lucas from doing what he has always done and then panned for it. In that way times havent changed.
    And I resent that. I am not interested in whats the latest kewl thing, if i were i wouldnt be a star wars fan (seems you are out of touch with the youth of today lol). And its another case of the fans being out of touch with the creator. What you think Star Wars deserves is totally IRREVELANT. What Lucas is doing is what Star Wars deserves. If he wasn't happy with his story he wouldnt have produced it the way he as with TP
  4. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    Agentcoop: So some people say the "problem" is that we need to move on, while others say that it's the fact that we have moved on...which is it?

    DT: I'd say its a bit of both actually some fans wnt move on while others have and wont recognise it.


    How about the issue is that, like it or not, we do have to accept what Lucas has put on screen. In the end it is his baby. If he wants to smother it, that's his perrogative. :D

    AC: Funny how Lucas isn't supposed to care what we want, but we're supposed to care what he wants.

    I see you misunderstood. LOL should have known. I'm saying that it doesn't matter what we want because its no our story, its Lucas story and what he wants in it matters. You don't have to care about his wants.


    Well, this isn't EXACTLY true. You see, DT, as fans we have helped Lucas create a billion dollar empire. Put it simply: were in not for us, and the toys we bought, and the movies we saw and later bought, Lucas probably wouldn't have much of a pot to piss in. As someone who pays for his entertainment, I want to be entertained. If Lucas succeeds in giving me what I've PAID for, so be it. If he doesn't, I have every bit as much of a right to bitch about it as you have to defend him. That's what this discussion forum is for. :D

    AC: This little paragraph is loaded with so much BS that I don't have a shovel big enough for it. We're back to square one where all of the responsibility for a film's quality lies with the audience and (here's the really laughable part) absolutely none of it lies with the people who actually made the film!!!!!! Did you actually think about that before you posted it? Did I write the film? Did I cast the film? Did I direct the film?

    What I want to know is, if I bear so much of the responsibility for the film's success, then where's my check?

    DT: No no no again you misunderstand what i am saying. LOL this is really bad. I am saying the reason you are disappointed is because you had expectations etc. The quality of the film is subjective and not where i was leading. Several words come to mind.


    Another idea is that the QUALITY of a film can be explored from a variety of areas: the intentions behind the story, the story presented on the screen, the performnces, the characters and the actors who play them, the FX, etc. Another side of it is our own personal enjoyment of a film (which in reality has absolutely zero to do with how well the film is made).

    In this case, and from my viewpoint, the quality of every film can be objective, and can be measured within filmic guidlines established in the 116 years of filmmaking. From my viewpoint TPM and AOTC are flawed films that have difficulty in certain areas converying their stories. Do I find them entertaining? Yes, by and large (more AOTC than TPM). Does this mean their well made films? No. I find that TPM and AOTC have choppy pacing and, in parts, extremely sloppy editing. Other parts are very well put together (the POD RACE and DOTF in TPM and the Yoda / Dooku battle are great stuff!).

    Another example: I happen to think that Re-Animator is one of the best schlock horror movies around, and that the stylized performances of Jeffrey Coombs, Bruce Abbot and Barbara Crampton are horrible. I still enjoy them very much though. Does this make Re-Animator a masterpiece of modern cinema - absolutely not (but it still rocks!)

    AC: The "Nostalgia Factor" is yet another erroneous assumption that has outlasted it's welcome. Guess what? There's a lot of stuff that I loved as a kid that I have long since outgrown. Movies, TV shows, music. "Star Wars" remains about the only thing from my childhood that stayed with me and still holds up to my adult scrutiny. Why? Because the older I got, the more I became able to see the deeper themes that lie beneath the visual pizazz. If you think that is not the same standard by which I should regard the PT then, again, that in itself speaks volumes.

    DT: The nostalgia factor is actually very valid because maybe not you but there are others.
    Bu
  5. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    actually this isn't the sanctuay doofus! ;)

    or were you joking and I'm the doofus?
  6. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    hawk,

    D'OH! For a moment, I got so into my post that I forgot where I was! :p

    After all I wrote (which was directed at DarthTerrious), the only thing you can call me is a doofus? (or was that directed at someone else?)

    :)
  7. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Looking right at you doofus boy. :)
  8. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    Another example: I happen to think that Re-Animator is one of the best schlock horror movies around, and that the stylized performances of Jeffrey Coombs, Bruce Abbot and Barbara Crampton are horrible. I still enjoy them very much though. Does this make Re-Animator a masterpiece of modern cinema - absolutely not (but it still rocks!)

    Agreed. There IS something great about reveling in schlocky bad (semi-intentional) performances. "Return of the Living Dead" is another one that comes to mind. Full of lousy over-the-top performances, tongue-in-cheek dialouge, and a sprinkling of quality nudity! (The punk chick with the morbid obsession with death is HOT!) [Calms down]

    What I'm saying, it's great to watch BAD performances from "bad" actors in movies by "bad" directors..."Plan 9", anyone? But, it's SAD to see bad performances from GREAT actors, in a movies by a (former?) great director, IMO.

  9. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    what a bunch of doofuses.
  10. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    Takes one to know one...KING Doofus! :p









    (And they say us SW fans are immature geeks!) :D

  11. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Tadji:

    I just don't know where to start. I have to say I disagree. I don't think Lucas situation is a bad situation. He is able to put his vision accurately on the screen. That is a fabulous thing to be able to do. Why shouldnt he control everything, its his story and he should be able to say what he wants so it fits with what he wants to see. So I'll leave him to do his story the way he wants it to be. I dont care how he does it as long as he gives me Episode 3 in his vision.

    Personally I'm fed up with how some of the fans have this attitude towards what George is doing. It is complete and utter ungratefulness. Nothing but. He didnt need to listen to you when he made the original trilogy and he doesn't need to listen to you now.
    Its no wonder you see a different quality in the new Star Wars films, you've grown up with the OT for nearly what 16 years? You got settled into the OT feel and the quality. The PT is new and well its difficult to adapt. Both trilogies suffer from what some see as bad acting. I mean Mark Hamill was hardly brilliant as Luke Skywalker, in fact I've said before that I found Luke irritating I couldnt relate to him. Thats just an example. But the whole saga suffers from problems, the difference is you were young when you saw the OT and you didnt notice the flaws, now you're an adult you're self-conscious enough to notice these flaws. Something Obi-Wan or Ben Kenobi said comes to mind "...let go your conscious self...".
    When I saw the OT in 97, I don't remember anything of it to be honest, I just couldnt get into it.
    But when TPM came out and I saw a Star Wars film with both my eyes open and I paid attention, well think of all the swear words in the world and thats how i viewed it. I was speechless for the first time in my life I saw something which was amazing and really connected with me. George Lucas was able to tap me into his fantasy mythology tale and from that day to this I've been hooked. Igave the OT a proper viewing at home and I thought wow that was great, I actually paid attention and liked it. But for me I was more able to relate to Anakin than his son. AOTC became another great eye opener and I could connect and enjoy myself.
    George Lucas' prequels connected with me, made me become this sad fanboy. He produced a film I've never liked more in my life, that goes double for AOTC and I dont know how I could thank him. You know wht I'll go see Episode 3 and enjoy it.

    So don't tell me that what Lucas is doing is wrong that his way isn't right. I love what he has produced and i will always. The PT and the OT are to me the same in quality and all brilliant. You can debate all you like but you can't take away from me the feeling I had when I saw TPM and AOTC. If those are bad Lucas films, well I don't know what I can say. Except that I love them all the same :)
  12. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    I can appreciate your opinion on the PT, Terrious, and I thank you for your candor. It's a shame that more of us didn't get that same impression, but it wasn't for any less desire to do so.

    We all wanted to get the same kind of reaction to the films - it just managed to underwhelm many of us. Not for pseudopsychological reasons, not for reasons of maturity, or any of the litany of ad hominem attacks that get tossed our way. For many of us, the PT just doesn't have that SW feel.

    EDIT

    DrE: "Doofuses?" Perhaps you mean "Doofi" (as in octopus/octopi, alumnus/alumni)? Don't force me to ban you for not applying the proper Latin suffix... ;)
  13. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    QUIX!!!

    Congrats on your Moderator Status! I look forward to more in depth discussions under your reign!

    :)

    Best,

    Tadji
  14. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
  15. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    So, we got a bunch of frickin' comedians on this board, heh?

    Okay, here's one for ya:

    A doctor tells his patient he's got six months to live. The patient says he can't pay his bill in time. So, the doctor gives him six more months...

    :D

    DarthTerrious,

    What Quixotic said. We are obviously looking at these films in two completely different contexts. I'm truly pleased that you find the PT as compelling and enjoyable as the OT, is not more so. I wouldn't take that away from you, so please don't interpret my arguments as attempts to do so. Far from it.

    I'm debating from strictly the filmmaking angle, from which I have a good deal of experience. I still enjoy these movies very much, and found AOTC to be highly entertaining. TPM even has moments that I will watch over and over (for the millionth time: the POD RACE, DOTF, final battles, etc). From an objective filmmaking standpoint, I find the PT to be put together with less care and attention that the OT, for reasons I've stated ad infinitum. You will not convince me that the PT is as well made as the OT, just as I will not convince you that the OT is leagues beyond the PT. That's fine and dandy, and our differences serve as the angles from which we debate. Keep it on that level, and try not to get so frustrated. We're not trying to make converts here. Just simple discussion of a series of films from a wide variety of viewpionts.

    Best,

    Tadji :)
  16. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    If you cared to read what I said I was refering to the PT and your thoughts on the past of Obi-Wan and Anakin.Dont bring in LOTR or any of film into this. I'm being specific to the PT.

    But the PTs, in the final analysis, are just movies, and so my compairson does hold. SW is no different than any other movie. If I go into one movie with preconcieved notions about what it should or shouldn't be, only to find out I am wrong, and yet am entertained and pleased with the product nonetheless, why should it be any different with SW? Is SW the only movie you are capable of "willing" into appreciation? If you say so, then PPOR, otherwise, you will have to acknowledge my argument as a whole.


    You look at everything as an adult, no longer able to really enjoy the surface details and thus not giving the film enough reflection for the deeper details.

    Actually, the surface details are one of my favorite things about the PT.


    Finally...my childish comment. Sorry I shouldnt stoop to that level, if I have done so again here.

    Don't worry about it.
  17. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    I'm writing a book on the Star Wars videos.

    It's not going very well.

    Maybe I should have used paper?
  18. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    SRN: If he wasn't trained, he'd have nowhere to fall from.
    >>>>So you are saying it was impossible for Anakin (at least at the point they found him in TPM) to have ever been a great Jedi?


    No- just that I don't think his training was the reason he fell.
    My point was that saying that Obi Wan is responsible for Anakin's fall because of his training is like saying that someone who falls off a wall falls off because of the guy who gave them a leg-up onto the wall in the first place. (ie. it's not.)
  19. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    You could use toliet paper when writting about the PT. :D
  20. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    What's next, PT for your bunghole perhaps?

    heh heh heh...

    That was cool.
  21. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
  22. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
  23. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    So don't tell me that what Lucas is doing is wrong that his way isn't right. I love what he has produced and i will always. The PT and the OT are to me the same in quality and all brilliant. You can debate all you like but you can't take away from me the feeling I had when I saw TPM and AOTC. If those are bad Lucas films, well I don't know what I can say. Except that I love them all the same

    Totally agree here. My feeelings exactly!
  24. HavocHound Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2000
    star 4
    This all boils down to the concept of the artistic/creative individual versus the status quo/conformist collective. In Ayn Randish terms, George Lucas would be a Howard Rourke - a Fountainhead - one who creates without allowing others to impose their will on him.

    Individualists of the world ARISE!
  25. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    Oh, please. Now anyone who doesn't like the PT is a conformist? It can never be just a difference of opinion, can it? There always has to be some veiled reason why people find problems with the PT.
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