Lucas and his right to make TPM (and the rest) his way.

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Go-Mer-Tonic, Sep 10, 2002.

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  1. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    That's OK, RogueSith. This is the standard argument for anybody who simply likes the PT. I've tried time and again to defend my semi-basher perspective within a measurable paradigm - that of the world of filmmaking. I try to illustrate by pointing out what I see as editorial sloppiness or bad pacing - as examples. I am, in turn, told that because Lucas wanted that way, it must be right. Forget the idea that there are actual rules of filmmaking, from pre-production to post-production, that are more or less adhered to in most other Hollywood films. Lucas is somehow exhonerated from these rules because he's Lucas. Oh, my head!!!!

    :D
  2. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    You misunderstand, it's not that we think the prequels are flawless, we just don't understand how one could miss the same kinds of flaws in the classic trilogy.

    All I expected was something on par with the classic trilogy, and Lucas has given us more than that.
  3. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    I stated earlier in this thread that I find the PT nowhere near ANH & ESB in terms of quality. I gave the example of comparing the romantic aspects of ESB and AOTC, but it was ignored.
    I fully recognize that there are flaws in the first two movies(as we all do), but IMO they're small and easy to overlook(see my earlier point on suspension of disbelief - also ignored), where the PT's flaws are larger and much more fundamental in their nature.

    But that being said, I'm still not a basher because I do, sort of, like TPM, or at least a good number of things about it. Unlike yourself, I can like something while still acknowledging the possiblity that it might not be all that good. Heck, I like Grease 2, but I know that sucks.
  4. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    LOL! :p

    I'm a pretty hard-line PT basher, but still found a LOT of things I enjoyed in AOTC, but very few in TPM. Like I said before, I feel the PT is not nearly as entertaining as the OT for me, but I still hold out some hope for Episode III, because I believe that is the heart of the PT.
  5. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    "...I still hold out some hope for Episode III, because I believe that is the heart of the PT."

    Ahhhh... so that's where they put it. ;)

  6. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    :p

    Well, that's what I HOPE! [trying to be optimistic for once.] must be the end of the world!
  7. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I love the Evil Dead series, and I don't think they are stellar examples of movie making.
  8. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    but the films of the evil dead series ARE examples of stellar movie-making.

    inventive camera angles, creative use of sound, intentionally arch performance, interesting subject matter, clever humor, impressive effects on a limited budget, fantastic direction, amazing camerawork...

    i will never understand you gomer.



  9. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Especially with all the effort you put into not understandinng me.
  10. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    no actually its quite easy to not understand you. you seem to say some things just to defend lucas without thinking beyond the initial defensive instinct.
  11. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    In other words, you don't consider what I say beyond the thought that I am defending Lucas.
  12. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    You guys really want to hug each other, don't you? Come on...you can do it. It's okay.

    There...there ya go.

    Now, don't we all feel a lot better? [face_love]

    I'm the Rodney King of the internet. :D


    ...wait a minute... ?[face_plain]
  13. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    no i said you SEEM to say SOME THINGS...

    *hugs gomer*
  14. Emos-Edud Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2002
    star 4
    Tadji,

    I know many who have both studied film and who work in the film industry who would say that, with the films of the PT, Lucas has adhered to the rules of filmmaking and made the two films that manage to convey much exposition while being well-paced and exciting.

    The problem is that even when you claim to be referring to a set of standard "rules," you are still using your subjective perspective to determine whether or not the film in question has followed them to satisfaction.
  15. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>Forget the idea that there are actual rules of filmmaking, from pre-production to post-production, that are more or less adhered to in most other Hollywood films. Lucas is somehow exhonerated from these rules because he's Lucas.

    "Rules"?

    Lucas has invented new ways of making films. Look at ILM and AVID for great big examples.

    He wrote his own rules.

    (Or am I missing a point here?)

    >>>I gave the example of comparing the romantic aspects of ESB and AOTC, but it was ignored.

    ESB is two people falling in love, and ending up living happily ever after. AOTC is a tragic story of Padme falling in love with Anakin, who is infatuated with her, but not in love.

    Difference in quality maybe- it's down the eye of the beholder, after all, but I know which one I find more interesting.
  16. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    I watched Empire Strikes Back last night and it was brilliant!
    If you guys can't appreciate the beauty of Star Wars, I pity you.
  17. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    Ahhh...
    Another thread turned Basher/Gusher war.
  18. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    "ESB is two people falling in love, and ending up living happily ever after. AOTC is a tragic story of Padme falling in love with Anakin, who is infatuated with her, but not in love."

    They don't end up living happily ever after in ESB, but they do in AOTC. I know the ultimate ending for each couple is different, but in the particular movies given as examples ESB is much more interesting than AOTC - IMO. Han and Leia have great chemistry and sexual tension, and just when they(her, really) admit their love(and Han delivers an all time classic line), they're torn apart. Everyone has their own opinion and they are entitled to it, but I find the Han and Leia romance infinitely more interesting and engaging than Anakin and Padme.
    And to be perfectly honest I disagree with the idea that Anakin doesn't love Padme. If that is the case, it only serves to further cheapen the character of Darth Vader.
  19. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    I watched Empire Strikes Back last night too. (But without the ad breaks.) Weirdly, the whole 'shuttle' thing at the end bugged me for the first time ever. I think I've been in here too long...

    >>>>They don't end up living happily ever after in ESB, but they do in AOTC.

    I wouldn't call having to get married in secret, 'living a lie' etc. "happily ever after", myself...

    >>>And to be perfectly honest I disagree with the idea that Anakin doesn't love Padme. If that is the case, it only serves to further cheapen the character of Darth Vader.

    I don't think it's a widely held belief, but that's the impression I got. Anakin wants to be with this girl he's been dreaming about since he was 10, who he's got attached to and holds up on a pedestal as an idealised figure. Maybe it's just me looking through my nerd-tinted glasses, I don't know.

    I don't see how this emotional immaturity (if it exists) "cheapens the character of Darth Vader" though.
  20. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    I watched Empire Strikes Back last night too. (But without the ad breaks.) Weirdly, the whole 'shuttle' thing at the end bugged me for the first time ever. I think I've been in here too long...

    BWAH HA HA! With each passing moment you make yourself more our slave!
  21. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    EDIT - Nevermind, trying to read two threads at once is confusing. I shall return later.


  22. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    Emos-Edud,

    I know many who have both studied film and who work in the film industry who would say that, with the films of the PT, Lucas has adhered to the rules of filmmaking and made the two films that manage to convey much exposition while being well-paced and exciting.

    And I would be inclined to agree with you , insofar as exposition is concerned. I've not criticesed Lucas for his ability to get an idea across. Quite the contrary, he's good at delivering information. I however found the AMOUNT of information, particularly in TPM, to be almost TOO substantial. He knew he had a lot of ground to cover, but I found the political machinations of the plot to be confusing and overwrought.

    The problem is that even when you claim to be referring to a set of standard "rules," you are still using your subjective perspective to determine whether or not the film in question has followed them to satisfaction.

    Well, as you yourself said above, you've found people who've studied film and are in the industry who found TPM and AOTC to be fine in these areas. In much the same way, as some one who has a degree in film and is in the industry, I know many people who think as I do. The issue is subjective, to a point. But when issues of editorial rhythm and overall pacing come into question, especially in a series like SW, where people who do this for a living are debating with each other, it says something for the overall quality of the film in question in the end.

    I apologize if this is somewhat incoherent - I'm trying to concentrate on my turkey sandwich at the moment! :D

    Best,

    Tadji
  23. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    SomeRandomNerd:

    "Rules"?

    Lucas has invented new ways of making films. Look at ILM and AVID for great big examples.

    He wrote his own rules.

    (Or am I missing a point here?)


    Lucas helped usher in a new way of making and editing films, to be sure. He's done wonders for the technical advancement of motion pictures and storytelling by that medium. However, his advancements affect the TOOLS of the trade, not the trade itself. Good editing is still good editing, regardless of how it's done. Editorial rhythm and pacing are still just that, and there are psychological reasons why edits are made in the course of storytelling in a filmic medium. AVID and ILM have made editing and visual effects generally faster and more lifelike, respectively, but the overall integrity of good editing hasn't been changed by his technical contributions, at least as far as I can see.


  24. Emos-Edud Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2002
    star 4
    Tadji,

    Editors debate the quality of editing in all feature films. If each editor agreed on how a scene or a film should be cut, we wouldn't need so many editors. Debate is not the proof that something is bad, just as it is not the proof that it is good.

    I hope you like your sandwich.
  25. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    Emos-Edud:

    Editors debate the quality of editing in all feature films. If each editor agreed on how a scene or a film should be cut, we wouldn't need so many editors. Debate is not the proof that something is bad, just as it is not the proof that it is good.

    You're right, to a point. While editors will have differing opinons as to how a scene should be cut, it's almost a universal when dealing with "wide / medium / close / shot / reverse shot" editing that a rhythm is established in order to make the scene flow properly. This of course is dependent upon the content of any given scene. Within those realms, however, I'm sure you'll find more agreeance than not from film professionals that said film was edited well or not.

    A prime example is the Oscars. Fiilm Editors vote in the film editing category, as sound editors vote in the sound category. These people are utilized because the experience they have in their particular craft, and are thus better able to make a judgment call on which picture should receive the statuette. I'm sure that there is quite a bit of debate among people in these categories, but in the end, some coalescing of opinions is reached.

    The PT represents some milestone filmmaking from George Lucas, no question about it. However, IMHO, there are pacing and editorial flubs that take me out of the stories as presented.

    A good example, I think, is the cross cutting between Obi-Wan's investigation of the clone army on Kamino and the developing love relationship between Anakin and Padme. In my opinion, the cross cutiing between the developing themes is too fast. We're not allowed to really experience the character's relationship to each other. The scenes on Kamino were great in and of themselves, but once again, I thought they were cut into and out of in such a quick fashion so as to rush the audience into the fight between Obi-Wan and Jango Fett. I'm sure others felt likewise, just as I'm sure yet others felt the opposite.

    Opinions are just that, in the end. However, I find debating these issues to be a fun way of seeing where people's appreciation of these films lie, especially if it's from a completely different perspective than mine.

    :)
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