Lucas and his right to make TPM (and the rest) his way.

Possibly, but I'm able to see the faults that they point out, and agree or disagree without getting upset about it. But the fact that I sometimes point out flaws as well gets me labelled, unjustly most of them time, by people such as yourself. There's a difference between liking the movie (as I do with AOTC), but also being able to judge it on its merits and it flaws, and just throwing allegiance to the films and proclaiming them nearly perfect, while ridiculing anyone who doesn't think the same way.

 

I don't label anyone, you label yourself.

There are some of you who don't like TPM but love AOTC, there are some of you who don't like either prequel, there are some of you who don't like thr prequels and ROTJ, and I know of at least one guy who didn't like anything past the very first installment. The ones you don't see here are the ones who don't like ANY of these films.

As someone who sees the merit in all the films, I can only conlcude that whatever degree one doesn't like the saga ends up being their own fault. It ends up being due to the attitude that they use to approach these films.

When it comes to sub par acting, dicey dialogue, and convenient plot points, you are right, there are issues in all of these films to varying degrees.

When it comes to saying the prequels have way more of these flaws than the classic trilogy, that is denial.

When it comes to saying Lucas is contradicting things he previously laid out in the classic trilogy, that's a choice one makes to not let go of their inaccurate assumptions based on the classic trilogy, because the classic trilogy in and of itself are not contradicted.

As fans we all have a choice. We can let go of our preconceptions and enjoy the newer films for what they are, or we can clasp on to our inaccurate preconceptions with a death grip and lament the newer films for what they will never be.

I am not saying one way is more correct, just more fun.

 

"while ridiculing anyone who doesn't think the same way."


It's doesn't so much seem like ridicule, as a condescending and pompous dismissal of anyone of a dissenting opinion.

This whole idea of "you didn't understand it" is laughable. He talks like we're sitting here discussing the "The Bicycle Thief" instead of a simple(and IMO, disappointing) space opera.

 

"...I can only conlcude that whatever degree one doesn't like the saga ends up being their own fault."



Now that's just great. Lord, I wish I had followers who would not only ignore any and every fault of mine, but would defend me to the point of saying that if people don't like my work, then it's their fault. It must be great.

 

It happens all the time - it's called "blaming the victim." There are obvious examples of this, but they aren't fit for discussion on a family friendly board.

 

As someone who sees the merit in all the films, I can only conlcude that whatever degree one doesn't like the saga ends up being their own fault. It ends up being due to the attitude that they use to approach these films.

That's one way to look at it, although it disregards the opinions of those who think this way in favor of an all-excepting adherence to what is Star Wars.

Gomer, I've stated time and again that I argue from the filmic standpoint. I don't share the same enthusiasm for SW that you do. Therefore, I don't have the "favored to Star Wars" bias that you have. I enjoy the SW movies, for the most part, but I'm not the fan that you are. This logically translates into a more objective approach to the FILMS that Lucas is making. In my opinion, Lucas has staled as a FILMMAKER, not a storyteller. There's quite a difference. The story Lucas tells is compelling. It's the WAY in which he does it that I find generally limp.

When it comes to sub par acting, dicey dialogue, and convenient plot points, you are right, there are issues in all of these films to varying degrees.

Agreed.

When it comes to saying the prequels have way more of these flaws than the classic trilogy, that is denial.

From a filmmaking standpoint, I would tend to disagree.

Lucas was forced to think on his feet in the making of ANH. He couldn't spend oodles of time trying to get the FX just right, or the money for yet another take to steady the performances. He went on what was, back then, sharper filmic instincts than what he has now. ANH is simply a better made film, because he was hungry, he was more or less broke, and he was on a leash.

When it comes to saying Lucas is contradicting things he previously laid out in the classic trilogy, that's a choice one makes to not let go of their inaccurate assumptions based on the classic trilogy, because the classic trilogy in and of itself are not contradicted.

We'll have to see how this plays out. I personally think the stories behind the PT are quite good (despite what I see as mediocre execution). I think Lucas has a real hum-dinger planned for EP III, and I'm anxious to see it. So, the jury's out on this one.

As fans we all have a choice. We can let go of our preconceptions and enjoy the newer films for what they are, or we can clasp on to our inaccurate preconceptions with a death grip and lament the newer films for what they will never be.

You're right, this is a choice we all have. However, throwing around the "I get it and you don't" argument makes you sound trite. Unless you have insider information from the Lucas camp, or a hyperlink to Lucas' brain, you cannot claim to "know" these films better than anyone else.

I am not saying one way is more correct, just more fun.

Your past arguments speak to the contrary, with yourself atop the pile of correctness. Not cool!

 

Marvel at Go-Mer's circular reasoning:

You deserved to not enjoy the prequels because you don't enjoy the prequels.

It's like saying: You deserve to dislike the taste of apples if you don't like the taste of apples. Anymore?

You deserve to be punched in the nose for getting punched in the nose.

You deserved to get blown up because you got blown up.


Basically it is using the conclusions to support your premises. I think it is called "begging the question"? I forgot. It was a few years back when I studied it. Either way, this line of thinking is so pathetic, the person who uses it deserves to use it. Wait a minute...

 

You deserved to not enjoy the prequels because you don't enjoy the prequels

Thank you, that one goes to my sig, my preciousss!

 

Gomer said:

"I don't label anyone, you label yourself."

In the Basher's Sanctuary you described me as one who couldn't see substance in the PT simply because I disagreed with you. You actually ignored the several statements I made about being a huge fan of the PT and instantly labeled me as a basher.

 

We know that GL has the power to make it his way. But just because its his way doesnt mean that its good. I think the PT is a stinker so far and one of my reasons is that GL is all about technology, thats it. GL should have remembered what made the OT soo good. Yeah he had to hear other viewpoints and sometimes implement them cause he didnt have total control like now, but look at the success and the following of the OT. The OT was his story, but he had much collaboration with it. He should have done it the same way it was done back then. If it aint broken... dont fix it.IMOP

 

Nudist :

Concerning collaboration, why are you blaming George for Lawrence Kasden declining to write the PT?? I am just using one example, but you get the point.

 

"In the Basher's Sanctuary you described me as one who couldn't see substance in the PT simply because I disagreed with you. You actually ignored the several statements I made about being a huge fan of the PT and instantly labeled me as a basher."

Welcome to the wonderful world of basherdom, Prozac. Most of the time, folks like Go_Mer act as though we checked some little "Basher" box when we signed up here. I never called myself a "basher". I had that label pinned on me within days of my first post here by people who chose to define me by my opinions. Those same people have happily ignored the good things I have said about the PT (in particular AOTC, which I loved). Personally, I think that's a little messed up but I have come to accept the label in an in-your-face kind of way to those who gave it to me, mostly because I have found such intelligent and fun people in the evil "basher" community.

 

George Lucas: "These [stories] are not put together by a marketing department. "

George Lucas is the marketing department. He's the finance department. He's the creative department. As CEO of his business empire, he can never ignore any part of his business.

And no Star Wars movie has more obvious pawprints of target market pandering than TPM.

 

What exactly is wrong with reaping a new crop of kids for these films?

Sometimes I think some of you would have been happier if Lucas made TPM an art film. Star Wars was, is and always will be a summer blockbuster, no brainer, eye candy series. It was never anything more than that and it will never be more than that. It doesn't try to be more than that.

If it was meant to be what most of you basher want it would be released around Christmas with all the Oscar suck up films.

 

I have to disagree with you DP. SW was always more than simple eye-candy.

When SW was first released eye-candy films were like Earthquake and numerous other action and disaster films.

SW has always had a nice story with involving characters we thought were cool, could root for, or disliked in a good way.

The problem with the PT is it's been great eye-candy with plenty of people to dislike, but almost no one to root for. Obi-Wan is a notable exception, but he was hardly featured as a main character until the end of TPM(that films best part).

The story and characters simply are not as appealing. That may have been George's intentions, but I don't care for it regardless.

I'm more interested in spending time watching great, enjoyable films than figuring out a director's "vision".

 

I'm more interested in spending time watching great, enjoyable films than figuring out a director's "vision".

Good point, Shane P. The reason the OT survives, I think, is that Lucas was extremely eager to tell his story. Even though he was limited by the technology, he pressed forward and gave it his absolute best for the time.

Contrast that with now. Lucas has all the time, money and resources in the world. In the hands of an "artist", this can be a dangerous thing. Lucas can now second guess himself, and do it again and do it again. This "creative freedom" he now has inevitably leads to the worst form of the "we'll fix it in post" methodology. In other words, not as much time is spent getting the camera just right, or the performances just so. Instead, EVERYTHING becomes alterable, which is a very bad thing in the world of film, IMHO.

As to his "vision", I'm not sure that Lucas is clear on this either. If he were, he wouldn't keep making changes to the PT with his DVD and video releases.

 

I do agree with the "fix it in post" statement. One of my biggest gripes (really my only gripe) is the over reliance on cgi. I don't think CGI is a bad thing and I love CGI Yoda and the Clone Troopers but was it necessary to make a CGI floating fruit? It looked faked as hell and this is something that could have been done easily and cheaply without CGI.
One of the problems I have with all the CGI is that it sometimes feels like there is so much to look at that I'm goona get dizzy! Especially in AOTC. There are 3 or 4 scenes where we are assaulted with a deluge of CGI then we are instantly cut a boring hillside love scene.
I don't think the love scenes were bad but more like they were beige pants under a paisley shirt.

 

"You deserved to not enjoy the prequels because you don't enjoy the prequels."

Thats a poor statement to say about bashers.
No one deserved to get the prequels. Lucas wanted to bring them out that was all. Not everyone had to like them, he wasn't concerned by that but by bringing his story to the screen.
People who didnt enjoy them? Well I guess thats too bad, Lucas can't please everyone and he couldnt if he tried. You can only tell the story you want to tell.


Also whats with all the focus on the filmmaking process by many of you? I don't understand that, probably never will.
I thought as fans of a film series such as Star Wars we could focus on what matters, which is the story, the characters and the plot points brought forward by the story.
I guess if you really need to back up your disappointment and upset at not getting exactly hat you wanted by attacking something which frankly isn't really important then, thats your choice.

 

"Also whats with all the focus on the filmmaking process by many of you? I don't understand that, probably never will.
I thought as fans of a film series such as Star Wars we could focus on what matters, which is the story, the characters and the plot points brought forward by the story."

There are a number of reasons for this. Speaking for myself, I'm not just a "Star Wars" fan, but a film fan. I am interested in the art and it's process. This is due largely to the work of George Lucas, Steven Speilberg and David Lynch. As a kid, Lucas and Spielberg showed me that it was possible to create imaginary worlds and that film was one of the ways to do this. As a teenager and an adult, Lynch has showed me that film can be pure art. So I'm interested in the films I like not just as entertainment, but as examples of the art of film.

Also, when you feel as detatched from and unengaged by the story and characters of TPM as I do, there is little else to focus on but the nuts and bolts.

 

"Especially in AOTC. There are 3 or 4 scenes where we are assaulted with a deluge of CGI then we are instantly cut a boring hillside love scene."

This is something I've noticed also DP. Some shots are too busy. On Coruscant, that's more understandable, and a balance between the live-action and effects is achieved. On Tatooine, not so much.

The end ground battle in Clones has some shots that are full of so many things going on, it betrays itself as an effects shot.

Tadji, great point about the post-production. Lucas has been shooting the PT with the idea of almost "image-capture" small amounts of live-action, then throw it all together in editing and the effects shoots.

Now we know post has always lasted longer on all the SW films than post, but 75+ plus days of principal photo and 18 months in post?

Some have argued Lucas cannot find the environments he is imagining for the PT. With the exception of Kamino, this is BS.

They were going to shoot some stuff for Geonosis in Austrailia, but I'm sure Lucas just turned to John Knoll and said "Nah. I'll let you do it."

There are many, many places around the world Lucas could send little second and third unit crews to and shoot live-action footage.

If ILM can make put Tom Hanks into footage with JFK and have Johnson throw a medal around Forrest Gump's neck, they can combine live-action footage shot around the globe.

 

I know exactly what you mean. One of the most depressing things is to watch those "Behind The Scenes" documentaries (either on the TPM DVD or the clips in the AOTC DVD trailer of the one that will accompany that release) and see nothing but bluescreen, bluescreen, bluescreen! For once I'd like to see some behind the scenes footage of live actors performing with other live actors on a physical set. CGI is supposed to be a tool. Lucas is trying to turn it into the whole enchilada.

Remember those quotes from around the time TPM was being "filmed" (I guess we use that term loosely now ) about how Lucas was really interested in the idea of doing Episode III using all digital characters? Fortunately, he came to his senses on that one but...*shiver*

 

"Fortunately, he came to his senses on that one but...*shiver*"

Yeah, just wait till the Ultimate Special Edition. Read some of rebel scumb's earlier posts for some frightening possibilities.
[face_shocked]

 

baggles, there was more than just Lawrence Kasden in the collaboration. Im basically just saying that GL has a swelled ego about his power and technology nowadays and is not open to their viewpoints. You get the point.

 

Remember those quotes from around the time TPM was being "filmed" (I guess we use that term loosely now ) about how Lucas was really interested in the idea of doing Episode III using all digital characters? Fortunately, he came to his senses on that one but...*shiver*

All I can say to this is:

EEEEWWWW!!!

Digital actors!

Well, he DID do Jar Jar Binks...

It still takes a human to voice the character, though. So, the digital character isn't truly ALL digital just yet.

 

"Because you don't care enough to understand what they are. You spend too much time lamenting what they aren't.

What they aren't have nothing to do with the classic trilogy, but with your incorrect assumptions based on the classic trilogy." -- Go-Mer


Huh? I don't "get it".