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Lucas and his right to make TPM (and the rest) his way.

Discussion in 'Archive: The Phantom Menace' started by Go-Mer-Tonic, Sep 10, 2002.

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  1. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

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    Aug 22, 1999
    Okay, but comparing the Yoda/Obi-Wan relationship to Luke doesn't specify being a padawan. It could very well refer to Obi-Wan's formulative Jedi education.

    Like I said, I can see the assumption, I just don't understand why you can't part with it.
     
  2. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 24, 2001
    You're right, Go-Mer, that there isn't a blatant plot whole -- something like Ben saying "Go learn from Yoda, the only Jedi master I ever had." But it's pretty obvious that Lucas had in mind Yoda being Ben's teacher, and I firmly believe that would have worked better in the PTs. The character of GQJ could have been done a number of different ways, ways that didn't deminish Ben's role in 1/3 of the PT. Also, I do believe for Ben to just not mention (in the OT) he learned from GQJ at all, and make it sound like Yoda was his only master is bad writting (looking at the films in chrological order). I honestly don't see how you don't see that.
     
  3. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

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    Aug 22, 1999
    But Yoda was his teacher the way Lucas is doing this, and I can't think of an appropriate point in the classic trilogy for Obi-Wan to talk about Qui-Gon, because it would be redundant for the audience, and meaningless to Luke.
     
  4. Quixotic-Sith

    Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 22, 2001
    A single line could have done it, Go-Mer, in the Point of View explanation in ROTJ.

    "I took him on because it was the dying request of an old friend. I thought I could teach him as well as Yoda. I was wrong..."
     
  5. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

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    Aug 22, 1999
    But that would detract from his taking full responsibility for his own actions.
     
  6. TadjiStation

    TadjiStation Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 8, 2001
    How so, Go-Mer? If anything, it makes him more responsible by putting his allegiance to Qui-Gon ahead of the rest of the Jedi Order. Yoda is clearly at odds with Obi-Wan in TPM when he agrees to let Obi-Wan take on Anakin. Yet, he allows it out of respect for both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. The failure, in the end, is still Obi-Wan's. BUT, Yoda is now a part of it, which adds a bit more dimension.
     
  7. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

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    Aug 22, 1999
    Because he is saying he wouldn't have done it if it wasn't for that meddling Qui-Gon. I just think it is important to contrast Anakin's lack of accepting responsibility with someone who takes it.
     
  8. DarthBane93

    DarthBane93 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 1999
    "But that would detract from his taking full responsibility for his own actions."

    Exactly. He is feeling guilty. Obi is not a guy who would blame others. He took all the blame and guilt and pointed it to himself.
     
  9. RogueSith

    RogueSith Jedi Master star 3

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    Oct 24, 2001
    "Because he is saying he wouldn't have done it if it wasn't for that meddling Qui-Gon."



    Well... isn't that the truth? I wouldn't have described Qui-Gon as "meddling", but besides that - it's a true statement.


    EDIT :

    "But that would detract from his taking full responsibility for his own actions."

    In fact, hasn't GL taken the responsibility off of OB1 by adding the scene where Qui-Gon makes OB1 promise to train Anakin? Before that scene, we are shown that OB1 is clearly against Anakin being trained. He states that he agrees with the council. From our(the audience) perspective, there is really no fault to be placed on OB1, unless you honestly think it would have been ok for him to lie to his dying master. In plain truth, it is Qui-Gon who was wrong, but we can't even blame him, because as an experienced teacher we could assume he would have done a better job with Anakin than the novice (as instructor) OB1. It would appear that GL has turned this into a situation where no one is really to blame. Another example - IMO - of why the PT characters are less enduring than the OT characters; besides Anakin, these people are practically without fault.
     
  10. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

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    Aug 22, 1999
    No by giving him a chance to blame Qui-Gon, it makes his taking responsibility stand out even more.

    If Qui-Gon told him to jump into the pit and he did it, would that be Qui-Gon's fault?
     
  11. RogueSith

    RogueSith Jedi Master star 3

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    Oct 24, 2001
    "If Qui-Gon told him to jump into the pit and he did it, would that be Qui-Gon's fault?"


    Horrible analogy. Maybe it would be somewhere in the neighborhood of relevant if Qui-Gon thought jumping into the pit would bring balance to the force.
    Qui-Gon is a good man with the best of intentions, and OB1 knows it. In the midst of a traumatic situation he puts his trust in his master's wisdom, over his own judgement. OB1's only "faults" in this scenario are trust and loyalty.
     
  12. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

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    Aug 22, 1999
    It only helps make the situation clearer. In the end, he chose to do what Qui-Gon asked. In the end, he takes responsibility for his own actions.
     
  13. RogueSith

    RogueSith Jedi Master star 3

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    Oct 24, 2001
    I'm not saying that OB1 at any time shirked the responsibility of taking the blame. Quite the opposite. I'm saying in the OT he does just that - takes the blame for Anakin's fall, thus showing great character by admitting his own mistakes due to his own arrogant presumption. But in TPM we find out that in fact, it wasn't his fault. So his acceptance of the responsibility isn't very meaningful since he made no arrogant presumption to begin with. It's nice and fine, that Ben steps up and says basically - "My bad.", but he's really confessing to a crime he didn't commit. So instead of showing depth, through his ability to own up to the short-comings he had in his youth, in ANH OB1 is now just a nice old guy who's taking the blame for something he didn't even do.

    I'm starting to think Qui-Gon's whole purpose was to take away the very blame Ben copped to. Inadvertantly he also takes away what could have been an extremely interesting PT character - a young arrogant, sometimes reckless, OB1 that we would have watched grow into the wise master he is in the OT.

    Character development is not a bad thing.
     
  14. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

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    Aug 22, 1999
    Not he was there to give him a reasonable way to not accept blame. It makes his full acceptance of the blame later on even more impressive.

    If you think Obi-Wan wasn't to blame then you miss the point about taking responsibility for your own actions.
     
  15. RogueSith

    RogueSith Jedi Master star 3

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    Oct 24, 2001
    No Go-Mer, that isn't it at all. OB1 didn't take the blame by saying something like "I was a bad teacher", he takes the blame by admitting he was wrong in attempting to teach Anakin in the first place. In other words he's saying it was a bad thing to keep his promise to his dying master? Again, I agree OB1 shows great character in accepting blame - but IMO, the blame he's accepting wasn't truly his to start with.
     
  16. DrEvazan

    DrEvazan Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Jun 19, 2002
    Lucas and his right to make TPM (and the rest) his way... he can ruin the whole saga any way he wants to.

    yippee!
     
  17. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

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    Aug 22, 1999
    Then you don't understand the point. He did it, therefore, he takes the blame for it.

    It is all about being a mature adult.
     
  18. RogueSith

    RogueSith Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Go-Mer I know that. You keep trying to make this about the character, and his maturity, or his moral fiber, but I'm not talking about that.
    Yes, OB1 is mature, I'm sure the character blames himself, despite the fact that it's not really his fault. That's all fine, and yes, OB1 is a great guy, he's a friggin' peach - ok? He's also a fictional character, so if GL wants to, he'll have him walk on water, too. I'm talking about the story. From the perspective of the audience - that's us - the choice to train Anakin wasn't the result of a short-coming on OB1's part(which is what was implied in the OT, but that's neither here nor there). So his accepting the blame is nice, but so what? He's morally perfect, of course he's going to take the blame. I just think Qui-Gon's insertion into the saga tries to make OB1 flawless, but instead turns him dull by glossing over his biggest mistake.


    Eh, but who cares, anyway? This topic is redundant. Who ever said he doesn't have the right to make his movies how he wants? Of course he does, he has the right to make them any way he wants, just like we have the right to discuss these movies in a critical manner, and just like you have the right to defend him. Duh.
     
  19. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

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    Aug 22, 1999
    Well if his blame is glosed over it is being glossed over by you.

    I don't see it that way.
     
  20. TokyoXtreme

    TokyoXtreme Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 24, 2001
    What gives Lucas the right to wake up in the morning, much less make the new Star Wars films HIS way?
     
  21. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE

    ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 27, 2001
    Maybe because of the fact that he created it in the first place, and has the personal right to do whatever he wants to HIS creation.
     
  22. DrEvazan

    DrEvazan Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Jun 19, 2002
    "He did it, therefore, he takes the blame for it."

    exactly. GL screwed up the saga, therefore he takes the blame for it. thats why we keep blaming him. duh.

    im glad you finally realized its georges fault and not the viewers.

    congratulations gomer.

     
  23. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 24, 2001
    I took him on because it was the dying request of an old friend. I thought I could teach him as well as Yoda. I was wrong..."

    But that would detract from his taking full responsibility for his own actions.


    I don't think you realized this, but you just agreed with me. Yes, having Ben accept Anakin because of the request of a dying master does take away from Obi-wan's level of responsiblity. And, that's not what we were lead to believe in ROJ, as you so noted with the above statement.


    Then you don't understand the point. He did it, therefore, he takes the blame for it.

    It is all about being a mature adult.


    But in the end, the PT doesn't show it being Ben's fault, so does taking the blame for things not truly your responsiblity really make you more mature, does it really?
     
  24. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

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    Aug 22, 1999
    It isn't a difficult concept.

    He takes the blame even when he could blame it on Qui-Gon. It shows the kind of matuiry Anakin lacks. If someone tells you to jump off a cliff and you do it, it's still your fault. You don't have to like it, but it would make me feel better about society if you understood the concept.
     
  25. Ekenobi

    Ekenobi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Apr 4, 2002
    I thought there was no need to mention Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan was trying to get across to Luke that Yoda had instructed him at one point and tried to do as well as Yoda by teaching Anakin. Yoda afterall was the Highest ranking Jedi. And even though he made a promise he still insisted to Yoda on training Anakin. So even though he made a promise he still blames himself. He was the only one who trained Anakin anyway. No one else is to blame. Also Yoda was the last of the Jedi Masters to be alive and he needed to point Luke to Yoda. Why bring up someone who has not been alive for decades. He was trying to help him get trained to save the galaxy. No time for stories.

    I am sure we all had many teachers in our lives and mabye only a few stick out in your minds.
     
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