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CT Lucas intended for ROTJ to be the Final Star Wars ever, explaining the bad story.

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by StarWars2015, Sep 9, 2015.

  1. ObiAlKenobi

    ObiAlKenobi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2012

    Yes, thats right, Kasdan did write ROTJ (with Lucas). My bad. And I know all about the Kurtz debacles. But, I also think it was a good thing that Lucas had people around him to challenge him, swap ideas with, etc. I was not there during the prequels so I have no first hand account of course, but it seems Lucas was not the collaborative type by the time he was filming the prequels. Even Anthony Daniels has come out with this recently (which surprised me). It would have been interesting to see it happen with 9 chapters.
     
  2. ObiAlKenobi

    ObiAlKenobi Jedi Knight star 3

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    Mar 10, 2012

    Calm down brother lol. I forgot Kasdan was on board for Jedi. I don't have an agenda against Lucas. And yes my beloved Empire has earned that respect.
     
  3. Obi-John Kenobi

    Obi-John Kenobi Jedi Master star 3

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    Oct 30, 2012
    I really didn't mean that you personally had an agenda, but that's how these things grow. One person says Kasdan didn't work on Jedi and the next thing you know, people start repeating it as fact. Just wanted to clarify.
     
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  4. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 1, 2011
    Just going to say that this sentence really, really rubs me the wrong way. I have problems with Return of the Jedi (and all the films, truthfully) but I would hardly describe Richard Marquand this way.

    That said, although I do think some plots were very underdeveloped (Leia's in particular), I love the resolution of Luke's story. And I'm quite happy with the Saga the way it is. If I end up loving The Force Awakens, that'll be a nice bonus. But I think they did a good job wrapping up the Saga regardless.
     
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  5. Obi-John Kenobi

    Obi-John Kenobi Jedi Master star 3

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    Oct 30, 2012
    I think to some extent, people that have problems with ROTJ tend to have a different "pet character". (I.E. "Han/Leia/Lando doesn't have enough to do") But ROTJ is really the heart of the Saga. It's Luke's movie--moreover it's the Skywalker movie.

    I guess that's why I love it. It's sorta like the Godfather of SW movies. Luke goes back to his old home on Tattooine to deal with Jabba (Michael goes to the "Old Country" after dealing with Solazzo) Luke gets needed information from a dying Yoda before a final confrontation. (Michael gets some important advice from Don Vito shortly before his death) Luke finally settles all Skywalker family business for the last 30 years by confronting the Emperor, who was responsible (inadvertently) for the death of his mother,his sister being hidden away and the corruption of his father. (Michael takes out the heads of the 5 families) Just an amusing observation.[face_dancing]
     
  6. LZM65

    LZM65 Jedi Knight star 4

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    Feb 24, 2015
    Although I don't feel about "Return of the Jedi" the way I feel about some of the others, I do agree that it is a very emotionally satisfying film. Especially for Anakin and Luke Skywalker.
     
  7. Binary_Sunset

    Binary_Sunset Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2000
    I don't like how ROTJ keeps going backwards:

    1. We go back to Tatooine.
    2. Then we go back to Dagobah.
    3. Then we go back to the Death Star.

    The only new location was the forest moon of Endor, and that was jacked-up with Ewoks.
     
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  8. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Kind of had to. Jabba's Palace was on Tatooine.
    Dagobah was where Yoda was. He wasn't going to risk getting caught.
     
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  9. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 23, 1999
    Over the years, information has come out in sources - like Rinzler's Making Of books, some stuff on his blog, The Secret History of Star Wars, etc. - which seems more and more to suggest that the nine-film 'trilogy of trilogies' was a virtually momentary plan which didn't have nearly the amount of detailed planning to it that fans like you(?) and I(!) would have expected, from the way it was talked about.

    Additionally, some of the information regarding what was supposedly planned for the nine film saga came from an interview with Gary Kurtz in 1999 (I think), and either he was conflating a lot of different ideas from different points in times of production, or the person quoting him got a lot of stuff mixed up. Either way, it doesn't quite seem that there was a unified story structure wherein Luke left at the end of the third film, Leia became queen of her people, the Other was the Sister, the Emperor was killed in Episode IX, etc. Some of those ideas appear in various notes or drafts of stories, and others might just be concepts that Kurtz, Kasdan, Lucas, Kershner, Marquand, Kazanjian, etc, liked, regardless of whether they were ever seriously considered.

    In terms of development, the 'Emperor dies in Episode XI' appears to relate to an attitude of Lucas's that once the Emperor was killed, the Empire was done for and there was no more story. There is a comment to this effect in The Making of The Empire Strikes Back, if I recall correctly. But at that time, Lucas was considering twelve episodes (or more, or less), and as evidenced by the blank outlines shown in the same book (and how much of the story of the prequels he had to make up 'on the spot' to make them, and they DID have some clear outline information to be based on!), there don't seem to have been detailed (or possibly any) stories planned for what would happen between Star Wars, Empire, and "Episode XII." A bunch of adventures would have happened, including the Sister being located, and then everyone would have taken on the Empire/Emperor and won, in the last movie (no matter what number was on it, probably).

    The secret Sister of Luke - who in Leigh Backett's draft of Empire is named Nellith and is, somewhere across the galaxy, already being trained as a Jedi - would meet up with Luke before they took down the Emperor. But after Brackett's draft she disappears from the story of Empire. In subsequent drafts, an 'Other' must be searched for, then that 'Other' is turned into a more definite thing ("There is another" in the final version vs. "We must search for another"). Then Leia becomes both the Other and the (now reappearing as a concept) Sister sometime during or previous to the outlining stages of Return of the Jedi... not much information about the thinking behind this process has been released; what we can see makes it look like this was consistently in flux up until it was put on the screen. However, tying up the Sister before the Emperor gets killed is right in line with what had been planned since the sister idea was first introduced. As a concept, it could have been resolved in different ways, and it might have been interesting if it had happened after the fall of the Emperor. But that wasn't ever what Lucas wanted to put on screen (for whatever reason), right from the beginning of that idea... which means that there might never have been - and at this point seems like there really wasn't - any version of the saga where RotJ played out pretty much as we know it regarding the fall of the Emperor, yet omitted the Leia-Sister-Other aspect in favor of a different Other/Sister(?) to play a part in the post-Imperial Sequel Trilogy. As interesting as that could have been.
     
  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001

    Lucas has long said that he doesn't like to deal with actors. That it isn't a strong suit for him. But according to what is known, Lucas did argue with Neeson about allowing Qui-gon to place his hand on Shmi's shoulder. Which he did win. And we know from the BTS book on ROTS, he and Ewan did talk about how to handle Obi-wan's last words to Anakin during filming. I think Lucas was the same way on ANH. He might have been a bit more open then, but I think he was almost as difficult to work with then. As to people challenging him, that did happen during the PT. He just either went ahead with his own ideas, or he took it under consideration and figured things out from there. If anything had changed from 1976 to 1997, it would be that Lucas was more confident in his ability to make decisions creatively than he was before. Regardless of how good or bad they were.

    Indeed. Even Abrams and Kasdan have said as much when they were having to rush to get the script for TFA ready in time, since Ardant was struggling himself to get it done. Lucas may have fudged the facts a bit about the status of those scripts, but not by much from all accounts.
     
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  11. Darth Palpadious

    Darth Palpadious Jedi Master star 3

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    May 31, 2013
    First off, Return of the Jedi is certainly not a bad film. It's definitely in my top three, I absolutely love it, especially the second half.

    But yes, it's a very final end, and it's perhaps a little too neatly wrapped up. Everything just sort of falls apart for the Empire very suddenly in the last half hour after being so omnipotent for the last 3 movies. It's deliberately done that way - the Emperor's "overconfidence is his weakness" and his attempt to show off and annihilate the Rebellion once and for all hinges on a few very unstable and vital factors which do not go his way. His massive arrogance backfires on him massively which provides a very satisfying final defeat for the Empire. But it does draw a line under everything pretty conclusively and for me the question throughout the last decades hasn't been "what happened next?", it's "where would we have gone from there?". There were many different routes they could have took as it was essentially a blank slate.

    And we're now finding out the answer to the question, and Abrams and co have gone with the idea that the Empire started from scratch and slowly built themselves up. ROTJ was indeed the end of the Episodes 1-6 story and Episode 7 is starting a new one, which I welcome.

    So ROTJ and TFA are not mutually exclusive in terms of what you like as a Star Wars fan. I love witnessing the Empire come crashing down and the Rebellion/Jedi triumphing against the odds, but I also love the idea that there will always be evils to fight and that although this was the end of the Sith and of the Galactic Empire, it was not the end of the dark side and there is now a new challenge. It's keeping things fresh while also letting the past set the stage. I'm totally on board for it. :)
     
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  12. Jam Lacobus

    Jam Lacobus Jedi Knight star 1

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    Aug 4, 2015
    The title this offends me! The first 40 minutes are as good as anything else in the OT. Not to mention Luke v Vader V The Emperor is AMAZING. OK, Lando on the Falcon feels a bit of a retread, and Endor... oh Endor. Endor Endor Endor. But the rest is quality.
     
  13. Obi-John Kenobi

    Obi-John Kenobi Jedi Master star 3

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    Oct 30, 2012
    Great post.

    I think the "12 part" saga was never really intended. I think the intentions were to have 3 spin off movies handled by other directors. The 9 part saga (I guess) was a real thing for a time, but the story got truncated by Jedi. As I said before, that's not really a bad thing, since I really don't see how they could've carried the story along without it feeling drawn out. Lucas struggled with giving Han a "mission" in ESB. Can you imagine trying to keep Ford in the series (and happy to be there) if his role became more and more thankless? Same thing with Leia. As Luke's sister she gained more purpose in the series.

    I also think ultimately, Lucas just didn't have enough ideas for the ST. He had to create a new enemy, new characters....it was (or IS) a large task. And Lucas has probably used up whatever gimmicks he put on the shelf at this point. (For example, he ended up using the "elevator drama" originally intended for ESB years later in ROTS. He basically took Han's mission from ESB, to find his step father whom he had a falling out with, and reformatted to Indy and Abner's relationship in Raiders.) So there was probably not a whole lot to build a story around.
     
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  14. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    ROTJ marks the first appearance of Jabba and McDiarmid as Sheev. Vader turning on Sheev and then dying in Luke's arms makes me cry every time.
     
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  15. Hogarth Wrightson

    Hogarth Wrightson Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 2, 2015
    I think it's a terrific story. The DS2 is no mere retread of the DS1; it's an ingenious trap for the Rebels, preying on their pride in a previous victory, which damn near works. There's a striking contrast, too, in the return to Tatooine, with Luke now in almost full command of his powers, compared to his former weakness as a lesser member of the Lars household. A lot has changed in those intervening years, all the more obvious when these more developed and mature characters are juxtaposed against the familiar desert backdrop. Rather than hiring Han to help him escape, Luke is returning to rescue Han. Rather than taking the droids with him as he leaves, he returns with them. The title of the film refers to Luke's triumphant return to his home planet, I think, as much as it describes a general return of the Jedi Knight to the galaxy.
     
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  16. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 23, 1999
    Lucas liked the serial concept from the beginning, with heroes going on lots of adventures. But the structure seems like it was always, always in flux. And it's difficult for me to say which of the various variations were "really" intended, or not, because they were almost always spoken about with such surety. There were gonna be infinite episodes (like James Bond). Or we'll do two sequels, maybe as books. No, there would be twelve filmic episodes (but in which order - and was Star Wars #4 or #6 or some other number?). Nah, we'll do nine - as "the other three" (how specific was this?) were "tangential to the saga" (possibly these would be some other ideas he had spoken about - droids film, wookiee film, Jedi film?). And, those nine films will form three trilogies. The prequels are before the Empire, telling the story of the young Ben Kenobi and how he got to the point of waiting around in the desert for something to happen. The middle trilogy is obviously Luke's, and "the character who survives Star Wars 3" will carry over into the Sequel trilogy, which is now planned to take place after the Emperor is killed in SW3. This sequel trilogy is "more ethereal" and "out there" (which really meant that he didn't have so many concrete ideas (as you rightly note)).

    I think the issue with the Sequels and the lack of a concrete 'Other' who would be sought in post-RotJ sequels has a lot to do with how set Lucas was on the Emperor being brought down in the "last" episode. Whenever that happened, that was it - the end of the story. I'm not sure he developed very many story ideas for what could happen after that, despite talking - in the original Making of Empire and in an interview to Denise Worrell, among other places - about a post-Jedi sequel trilogy.

    Also, interesting catch with the Han/"Ovan Marekal" relationship being ported over to Indy/Abner Ravenwood. I had never considered that before.
     
  17. vnu

    vnu Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 8, 2012
    In TESB the heroes mention they'll rendezvous on Tatooine.
    They also mention they have to 'find Han.'

    The big question I have: During the writing of TESB, was Jabba's Palace always intended to be on Tatooine? If it was, then why the big mystery of 'where is Han?' that is, why have to find him when they already know he's at Jabba's Palace on Tatooine?
     
  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I think they were hoping to intercept Boba before he delivered Han, but he got past them.
     
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  19. vnu

    vnu Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 8, 2012
    I guess that does make sense as in, if they don't intercept Boba, then they'll rendezvous on Tatooine.
    That was how Shadows of the Empire retconned it.

    But who knows if this was the original intent?

    EDIT:
    Just rewatched the scene.
    Lando: "When we find Jabba the Hutt and that bounty hunter, we'll contact you."
    Luke: "We'll meet you at the rendezvous point on Tatooine."
    Lando: "Princess, we'll find Han."

    Yah, I really don't think they intended Jabba's Palace to be on Tatooine during the writing.
    In regards to how this makes RotJ having a bad story, going off the greatness of TESB, there was no hint at Jabba the Hutt, Han, and Boba Fett actually being on Tatooine. That is, it's another thing that drags RotJ down in comparison to TESB.
     
  20. Hogarth Wrightson

    Hogarth Wrightson Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 2, 2015
    In-universe, the heroes may not know that Jabba intends to hang Han in the Hutt's palace. For all they know the carbonite block will go up in the Mos Eisley cantina where Han was well-known. Or maybe Jabba plans to sell it to a collector of such trophies. Or hang it in one of his other residences. Or give it to a girlfriend /shudder.

    In RL, I suspect Lucas had not yet conceived of the Palace as of the completion of ESB. Likely it came up in talks with Kasdan. Anyone know what the first draft of ROTJ says about the Palace?
     
  21. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 19, 2003
    funnily i never heard anyone complain about rotj until i came on this site. there's nothing wrong with rotj.
     
  22. LZM65

    LZM65 Jedi Knight star 4

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    Feb 24, 2015
    I never understood the attitude at the end of "The Empire Strikes Back" that they had to search for Han. They knew about the bounty on Han. And surely they knew where to find both Han and Jabba . . . regardless of whether they had intended for the gangster to be on Tatooine or not. But that attitude at the end of Episode V did not seem right to me.
     
  23. JoshieHewls

    JoshieHewls Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 16, 2013
    I never got the impression that they had to "search" for Han. Heck, Luke says at the end, "I'll meet you at the rendezvous at Tatooine." I just figured they were going there to save Han (this was my line of thinking before Shadows of the Empire ever came out, mind you).
     
  24. oierem

    oierem Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    It's funny people keep repeating the idea of ROTJ being a lesser movie because it had to shoehorn the plots for the ST, just because Lucas grew tired of the Saga. Far from truth. Regardless of the "12 film plan" or the "9 film plan" (which was basically a very ethereal concept which had more to do with Lucas' love for the idea of a trilogy, rather than having actual plots for them), it is clear in the Making of books that the idea of a "Star Wars trilogy" about Luke, Han, Leia, Vader, The Empire... was always in his mind, and Return was always meant to be the end of that particular story.

    Furthermore, the idea of ROTJ being overbloated with plots from different movies is rather ridiculous: on the contrary, in a way Lucas had to fill up the episode because there wasn't enough material.
    There are three basic plotlines/sections in the movie (as Lucas describes them in the Making of book).
    -Luke/Vader/The Emperor. This is just the natural conclussion of Luke's arc and the developments that came from Empire. Luke confronts Vader as his father and Vader confronts his former good side, while both are faced with the Emperor. (not dealing with the Emperor until 3 movies later is just... absurd after what happens in Empire)
    -Rebels win the Empire with the help of the Ewoks/primitive race in a jungle/forest planet. This comes from the very early script of SW, and was one of the primary motivations to do the film for Lucas, the Vietnam allegory. In a way, it's a section of the original script that couldn't be done in the first film.
    -And because he needed something more to fill up the movie (as he admits in the DVD commentary), he created the Jabba/Rescuing Han section, just to be able to have some fun adventures with the heroes and at the same time re-do the disappointing canina sequence with more monsters and creatures.

    There you have it. That's ROTJ, and as you can see, it's not a condensed version of different plots. Rather, each of the three sections comes from a specific need (the need to follow Luke's personal story, the desire to finally do the Vietnam allegory and the willingness to have Han back).
     
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    To be fair, back when the OT was being made, a lot of things were in flux. Lucas wasn't sure he could get more than one film done, since there wasn't a lot of faith that ANH would work. Much less be profitable which only added to the stress that he was under. Once ANH was out there and a runaway hit, that's when he started to try and nail things down. It is also interesting to note that in the issue of Premiere Magazine from 1999, he did at one point state in the interview the origins of the multi film saga. He said that he had three films which is what he told the studio. They asked about more and he said that he could probably come up with another three films that would tell the backstory and when pressed further, he said that he could come up with another three films that were set later. But then this also contradicted what Hamill claimed in a separate interview. He said that while making the first film, Lucas had told him that he had at least twelve films in mind and that towards the end, Luke would pass on his Lightsaber like it was Excalibur to the next generation. When asked when that would be, Lucas had told him around this time period. i.e., between 2012 and 2018. So I think the issue is that Lucas did have a lot of ideas, but the changed based on what was going each time the subject came up.

    I was reading Wizard Magazine back in the late 90's and that's when I first heard that people had issues with ROTJ. Then I read the transcript of the Death Star conversation from "Clerks", which was also in the issue of Premiere that I referred to. I hadn't seen the film yet, but Kevin Smith was tapping into some of the mindset that his generation had with the second and third films.