Lucas' Original Concept-- Palpatine as Anakin's Father

^^^

You still aren't getting it.

Palpatine doesn't know how to influence squat. He's a liar. He lies to Anakin. The script and book are clear on this. The Sith don't know how to prolong life. They will never find out the seceret. IT'S IN THE NOVEL. IT'S IN THE SCRIPT.

Get it now? Yeesh!

 

Re: "I Created you, Anakin..."

These words sound like something Plageuis would say...

Exactly what Plageuis might say...


...if only he could sp------

 

Darth_Howell_III posted on 4/11/05 2:03pm

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Re: "I Created you, Anakin..."

These words sound like something [i]Plageuis [/i]would say...

[i]Exactly [/i]what Plageuis might say...


...if only he could sp------
[hr][/blockquote]

Thank you for showing us you don't get what I just posted.

Let me guess Howell, you haven't read the book [b]or[/b] the screenplay, have you?

 

I don't believe for a second that Palpatine was in any way responsible for Anakin's conception. But the scene still should have been left in the script.

 

im not sure if like the fact that Lucas took out that scene. I mean i don't like the fact that he reused "I am your father." But what he could of had palpatine say that Plagueis his master created anakin. That way making anakin believe his power is true. But then it turns out Palps lied about his master creating him, Anakin finds out after the battle on mustafar when he is in his suit. Thus still seemingly proving that anakin is still the chosen one. Yet he is now a servant of the dark side and there is no turning back til episode VI

 

Honestly,it doesn't bother me either way. I would have prefered that GL left it in and if the movie didn't resolve the situation that he'd comment on his thoughts after. Maybe on the dvd.

Anakin was created by the Force. To me,a dark intent would add depth,be it a lie or not.

Don't plan on reading the book till I've seen the movie.

 

"Palpatine doesn't know how to influence squat. He's a liar. He lies to Anakin. The script and book are clear on this. The Sith don't know how to prolong life. They will never find out the seceret. IT'S IN THE NOVEL. IT'S IN THE SCRIPT."

Which scene in the script establishes (clearly) that Palpatine's claims about Plagueis's power are false? I'm not doubting you, just curious. Is it just Qui-Gon's statements at the end? That section is open to many different interpretations (and thus not as clear as you claim it to be).

 

Darth_Thrasymachus posted on 4/11/05 2:56pm

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"Palpatine doesn't know how to influence squat. He's a liar. He lies to Anakin. The script and book are clear on this. The Sith don't know how to prolong life. They will never find out the seceret. IT'S IN THE NOVEL. IT'S IN THE SCRIPT."

Which scene in the script establishes (clearly) that Palpatine's claims about Plagueis's power are false? I'm not doubting you, just curious. Is it just Qui-Gon's statements at the end? That section is open to many different interpretations (and thus not as clear as you claim it to be).
[hr][/blockquote]

Page 409 of the novel:

Qui Gonn: The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they will never acheieve it.

The script pretty much says the same thing.

 

It really just seems to me that George was smoking hashish and watching the Architect scene from Matrix Reloaded...

 

" Page 409 of the novel:

Qui Gonn: The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they will never acheieve it.

The script pretty much says the same thing."

No, I don't think it (the script, that is) does. It seems to me (again, open to interpretation) that Yoda and Qui-Gon are talking about "eternal consciousness" and that could be different from the prolonged life (or created life) that Palpy says Plagueis mastered. Remember that early spoiler about how the sith and jedi had different conceptions about what constituted eternal life (jedi = accepting death and living forever in the force; sith = bodily eternity but at great physical and mental cost). The Yoda - Qui-Gon dialogue (in the script) is not inconsistent with this idea. It reads (again, to me) like a simple recognition that the jedi understanding of life and death is superior to the inferior (but valid) sith understanding.

In any event, I don't think you can say that the script clearly says Palpy was making it all up on that evidence alone. And, given the Star Wars tradition of honest villains, I think a clear refutation is necessary.

 

Veeery interesting...the prophesy being fulfilled in someone created by the Sith.

 

And what of this 'doctor bag' Palpatine is toting, when it's time to save Anakin?

What previous evidence is there of him possessing medical know-how?


Those skills would appear to be applicable to a whole different charac-------

 

Time to wax philosophical at bit . . . .

We know that the dark side is a self-centered power, drawing the force to oneself for personal power and glory. The light side embodies more of a Zen approach, being a part of all things, feeling one's connection with all that is. In a simple way, this sums up the two for arguement's sake.

Yet both sides tap into the same galactic force despite their different uses. So if the Jedi believe in the prophecy of a Chosen One, why not the Sith as well? Both are able to peer into the future using the force -- Yoda does it, and so does the Emperor, but each sees slightly different things primarily due to how each uses the force (light or dark). So the Chosen One may be seen as playing a part for both the Sith as well as the Jedi -- perhaps the Jedi Council sensed this possible dangerous double role in TPM when they unanimously decided Anakin should not be trained. Perhaps they foresaw a troublesome potential to this force-strong child. So too did Palpatine. The battle was on as to which side the prophecy pertained to, and which side would win. Qui-Gon knew of Anakin's importance -- he was attuned to the WOTF far more than his Jedi peers and the council. The force spoke through him as he made himself more closely attuned to it. After his death, he retained his identity while joining with the force, instructing Yoda and Obi-Wan on just how to fulfill the prophecy of the Chosen One. Qui-Gon plays the key role here as the voice of the WOTF.

One fact is certain -- the WOTF led Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon to young Ani just ahead of Darth Maul. In this simple gesture by the WOTF made it very clear to which side the prophecy held true. Yes, Anakin would be tempted, he would yield to temptation, and he would fail. But literally out of the ashes, and through the power of his undying love for Padme and a new love for his son, Anakin fulfills his destiny as the WOTF always intended, bringing balance to the force by eliminating the Sith order from within, breaching his position of trust to attack Palaptine at his weakest moment -- as he is totally absorbed in a moment of dark power when 'frying' young Luke.

Anakin always had a free will -- he simply chose how he would fulfill his destiny -- he could have done it on a window ledge outside of Palpatine's office as Mace fought against the Sith Master's force lightning, begging for his help. But Anakin for whatever reason chose not to fulfilll his destiny at that point in time. The WOTF gave him another opportunity, and the hero of the Clone Wars, the Son of the Suns, did not fail a second time!

 

People are treating as mutually exclusive the ideas that being born of the midi-chlorians and Palpatine arranging the conception of Anikin. It's doesn't have to be that way.

Consider the following premises:
1. Palpatine learned some technology or nuance of the Force that allowed him to cause Anakin to be conceived.
2. The midi-chlorians caused Anakin to be conceived.

But it is only logical nearsightedness that causes one to think of this as mutually exclusive. Take the first example. The midi-chlorians are the little buggers who are responsible for the Force. The Force is super mysterious and powerful and plays a part in every aspect of the universe. If the Force has such broad jurisdiction, it is easy to see that this allows for the possibility that both 1) and 2) above are true.

Reread the premises:
1. Palpatine learned some technology or nuance of the Force that allowed him to cause Anakin to be conceived.
2. The midi-chlorians caused Anakin to be conceived.

Just because Palpatine was part of the causal chain doesn't mean he was the ONLY cause. The midi-chlorians, remember, are mysterious and play a role in keeping the universe in balance. "The Force is an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, it penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together". Since the Force is so universal, it potentially influences every action of every being, including Palpatine. It is therefore possible that the Force is the root cause, and Palpatine was simply a player in a game much bigger than himself. So, maybe the midi-chlorians really were manipulated by Palpatine, but on a deeper level, Palpatine had set in motion a chain of events that would eventually restore balance--ironically by destroying Palpatine himself.

In the real world, we see similar false reasoning with the Evolution vs. Creation debate. Take for example these premises:
1. God created the Heavens and Earth and all the little animals and life that exist in the Universe.
2. Man evolved from other animals.

To someone who has already made up their mind which theory is the "right" one, these seem mutually exclusive. But, in reality, an all-powerful God is capable of assuring that both of these happens, even without logical contradictions (I won't go into whether or no God can make REAL logical contradictions and still be right, kindof like thinking about whether God can make a rock so heavy that even he himself cannot lift it).

The simple proof of this is: God is all powerful and therefore can, without breaking a sweat, create a universe that has, built in and for no extra charge, "time-delayed" creation. What is time-delayed creation? Why, evolution of course! It is an insult to God to think that He has to come down from Heaven just to fix his creation every time he wants a new species to appear.

I will be signing copies of my book, "Anakin Skywalker: Antichrist Superstar" on the 3rd floor of Barnes in Noble next to Madison Square Garden on Thursday of this week. Hope to see you there.

 

Darth_Thrasymachus posted on 4/11/05 3:15pm

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" Page 409 of the novel:

Qui Gonn: The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they will never acheieve it.

The script pretty much says the same thing."

No, I don't think it (the script, that is) does. It seems to me (again, open to interpretation) that Yoda and Qui-Gon are talking about "eternal consciousness" and that could be different from the prolonged life (or created life) that Palpy says Plagueis mastered. Remember that early spoiler about how the sith and jedi had different conceptions about what constituted eternal life (jedi = accepting death and living forever in the force; sith = bodily eternity but at great physical and mental cost). The Yoda - Qui-Gon dialogue (in the script) is not inconsistent with this idea. It reads (again, to me) like a simple recognition that the jedi understanding of life and death is superior to the inferior (but valid) sith understanding.

In any event, I don't think you can say that the script clearly says Palpy was making it all up on that evidence alone. And, given the Star Wars tradition of honest villains, I think a clear refutation is necessary.
[hr][/blockquote]

"Tradition of honest villans?"

Lando: "You said they'd be left in the city under my protection"

Vader: "I am altering the deal. Prey I do not alter it any further".

Palpatine: "I love democracy. I love the Republic. The power you give me I will lay down once this crisis is abbated".

Furthermore, it is clear that Qui Gonn is talking about the power of eternal life, and that it is something the Sith want but will never achieve.

It's in the script. It's in the book. And I don't gie a fig about how you want to interpret so it will fit your argument.

And for God's sake people, why can't you warp your brains around the fact that Geogre Lucas said the Force itself created Anakin? He never meant for Palpatine to actually have had anything to do with Anakin's origins. He just meant that Palpatine was going to lie.

 

What previous evidence is there of him possessing medical know-how?

Give it a freaking rest, you type just to see yourself type.

For all ANYONE knows, Plagy buns could be another lie, he may not have ever existed and Palps master could have been named Bob Scratchitt.
Christ it gets harder and harder to stomach these boards now and then.

Has anyone even looked at some of the other "ideas" that Lucas had for this saga, this is by far not the first time he has pulled something that was too cliche?
It was not put in for a good reason, because he deemed it not belonging.

 

Xyber, if you think it's bad now, just wait until June when everyone who loved ROTS decides after their 40th viewing that it sucked.

 

LOL
Actually to me it was the other way.
I always thought the PT sucked, and I still say the OT is better (just my opinion) but the PT films do grow on you the more you watch them and are enjoyable in their own right.

 

Hashish. Matrix Reloaded. Architect scene.

Sticking with that argument.

 

The reference to "honest villains" refers to the oft-noted tendency of the bad guys to reveal the truth that the good guys ignore or deny (Vader's revelation in ESB, Dooku in AotC).

"It's in the script. It's in the book. And I don't gie a fig about how you want to interpret so it will fit your argument."

Well, you're the one who keeps screaming that it's clearly in the script. Perhaps you read the script so it fits your preconception, eh?

"And for God's sake people, why can't you warp your brains around the fact that Geogre Lucas said the Force itself created Anakin? He never meant for Palpatine to actually have had anything to do with Anakin's origins. He just meant that Palpatine was going to lie."

Perhaps. Or perhaps he means to leave it ambiguous. Just be careful with your certainties. There's always been a possibility that there was more to Anakin's origins -- a possibility that Lucas was at least flirting with. If the dialogue had been left in, it would certainly leave some ambiguity with respect to his virgin birth (this would have been a good thing IMHO). Since it is cut, I'm willing to admit that it's more clearly a virgin birth but that line Palpatine uses about Darth Plagueis being able to create life is still there. Why leave that in? It's not necessary to the plot (unlike the claim that he could extend life). Sure, it might be a lie, but there's no clear-cut in-universe canon refutation, right? Or is there? I'm honestly open to arguments on this point.

(For the record, I'm neither a basher nor a gusher. I grew up on the OT but I love the prequels too. Neither trilogy is perfect though).

 

BTW, Apostle_warren, that was a great post. Exactly the kind of ambiguity that would be a good (non-)resolution of Anakin's origins.

 

The has been at least one other problem with the continuity between the movies and the books.

 

Say what you will about D_H_III's occaisonally crazy theories, he is one clever dude.

 

You still aren't getting it.

Palpatine doesn't know how to influence squat. He's a liar. He lies to Anakin. The script and book are clear on this. The Sith don't know how to prolong life. They will never find out the seceret. IT'S IN THE NOVEL. IT'S IN THE SCRIPT.

Get it now? Yeesh!

Justin Peeler If you were George Lucas and emphatically wrote that "Palpatine doesn't know how to influence squat. He's a liar. He lies to Anakin. The MOVIE is clear on this. The Sith don't know how to CREATE LIFE! IT'S IN THE MOVIE!"

I will "get" it! I will have no trouble at all, if the MOVIE makes it clear to me, without leaving any ambiguity, that Palpatine was lying about midichlorians being able to create life to Anakin (not, please note, about the ability to prolong life). And that Anakin was as gullible as a chimp in swallowing all this up! If that's the story, so be it! It's GL's to tell!

Instead.... as of now, we simply have - in the FILMS - that Anakin had no biological father and was created seemingly by the midichlorians. And Palpatine says that Plagueis, his master, knew how to create life by influencing midichlorians. If there is no clear indication that Palpatine was lying, then this issue WILL remain ambiguous.

All this reminds me of the endless debates about whether Sidious is "more powerful" than Mace. I am going to wait to see the movie and decide for myself.

 

" Page 409 of the novel:

Qui Gonn: The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they will never acheieve it.

No, Justin. I think Qui-gon is talking about retaining your identity after death. The Sith can't dissapear and become a Force ghost because that comes from compassion.

However, this says nothing about the ability to prolong your physical life or the ability to create life.

Correct me if I am wrong, but that is what I have thought.