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Lucas' Original Concept-- Palpatine as Anakin's Father

Discussion in 'Archive: Revenge of the Sith' started by Noel-Gallagher, Apr 10, 2005.

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  1. Noel-Gallagher

    Noel-Gallagher Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2005
    I suppose there is an outside shot that this will be cleared up in the movie. But most likely there will always be arguments on both sides, with people passionately defending which side they believe is right.
     
  2. JustinPeeler

    JustinPeeler Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2003
    Barth posted on 4/11/05 5:03pm
    Say what you will about [b]D_H_III[/b]'s occaisonally crazy theories, he is one clever dude.
    [hr][/blockquote]

    Clever how?

    If you guys would actually read the Vanity Fair article [b]like I suggested[/b] you'd read [b]George Lucas himself[/b] saying [b]the Force Itself created Anakin[/b], not Palpatine.
     
  3. Mister_Bunny

    Mister_Bunny Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2001
    Do Sith and Jedi have control of the force through midiclorians?

    Is the prophecy that a Chosen One will be concieved by midichlorians?

    Do midiclorians have to magically appear inside of Shmi's belly by the Will of the Force, or can they appear there by devious means, and still fulfill the prophecy?
     
  4. Tiershon_Fett

    Tiershon_Fett Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 2000
    I think it was cut because people would've take it too literally. Palps is baiting Anakin. If you think about it, it would have completely detracted from the scene.
     
  5. All_Powerful_Jedi

    All_Powerful_Jedi Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2003
    I don't like this, but only for one reason: Vader would have been killing his "father" to save his son, which would have gone against the positive family message Lucas is sending with the Saga.

    It's also sort of redundant with Vader's revelation in ESB.

    Other than that, though, I could have gone either way. People really overrate the divine birth of Anakin Skywalker and forget the human element to it. With Palpatine creating Anakin, all bets are off and it creates even more doubt that he will bring balance to the Force so you have more tension in the OT.

    But, yeah, it's a redundant plot point which is best left out of the script.
     
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Lucas likes to keep things simple, with complex themes than can be simplifed easily. In the end, Lucas chose to stick to his story of Anakin being the Chosen One and not the creation of Sidious.

    Qui-gon says that eternal life is something that the Sith can never achieve. Eternal life for a Jedi is their ability to join with the Force consciously and retain their physcial and mental identity. Sidious first says that he knows the secret, then he says that it died with Plaugeis, but that they can figure it out. Padme dies and it becomes a moot point.

    Now, the only way this can be true is if when Vader is found, it's declared that he's dead. But when Sidious puts his hand on his head, he actually wills him to live. Otherwise, it's going to be classified as wrong.
     
  7. Xyber_Hex

    Xyber_Hex Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2004
    Clever how?

    That is my question too.
    Clever as in the same way that the sun is dark?
     
  8. jedi-ES

    jedi-ES Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2002
    I agree with tephjo on the first page of this thread -- this "event" along with Dooku's admission that he was responsible for Shmi's death were things that I'm glad GL cut. They don't work on so many levels and if included in the final cut, would have made ROTS almost ridiculous, IMHO.

    Despite the fact that some people around here would have loved for Palpy to be Anakin's "father", it just doesn't work as him being the Chosen One created by the Force. Together with the fact that it's a ridiculous idea and that it was only included in the first draft suggests that it's something that shouldn't be taken too seriously.

    GL tried something -- it didn't work -- so he cut it. Though I have read The Making of ROTS book, and confirm that this is in the book, I still believe that even if Palpy did say it in the final cut, that doesn't mean that it's actually true -- rememeber, Palpy is a Sith Lord. They tend to lie when it suits their interests. ;)
     
  9. Meatypants

    Meatypants Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Do Sith and Jedi have control of the force through midiclorians?

    Is the prophecy that a Chosen One will be concieved by midichlorians?

    Do midiclorians have to magically appear inside of Shmi's belly by the Will of the Force, or can they appear there by devious means, and still fulfill the prophecy?


    I agree, Mr Bunny (did I just type that?). This is what George was probably thinking.

    Then he realized that would add too much to an already new-info-heavy movie, and would just piss of the audience.
     
  10. JustinPeeler

    JustinPeeler Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2003
    The same goes with the Dooku thing. Sure, Palpatine can suggest to Dooku to tell Anakin Shmi's death was arranged to piss Anakin off, but that doesn't make it true.

    The Sith lie. It's part of who they are.
     
  11. Xyber_Hex

    Xyber_Hex Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2004
    The Sith lie. It's part of who they are.

    QFT
     
  12. Meatypants

    Meatypants Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    "Sith lie... Sith lie... Sith lie... when they cry!"


    -Lily Taylor from "Say Anything" on the nature of Sith.

     
  13. Barth

    Barth Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2002
    Clever how?

    Read his posts. Even his R2D2 spy-cam theory, although quite a stretch, was quite well developed and he pointed out evidence for it in numerous places.

    And Justin_Peeler, I have read the Vanity Fair article. Perhaps you should read my post from Page 1 of this thread? I pointed out that this theory doesn't contradict anything, it doesn't contradict what Lucas said in Vanity Fair either.

    With this theory, it IS the Force that creates Anakin, but it is Palps who manipulates the Force to do this. He manipulates the Force to create Anakin to be his ultimate ally, but this backfires on him, and this ally kills him in the end.

    In a way, it is like saying that the Force operates in mysterious ways and subtle ways. An evil manipulater of the Force comes along and tries to use the Force do the most unnatural thing, of creating life. The Force turns around and bites him in the arse by guiding this creation to eventually kill the manipulator of the Force. You play with fire, you get burned!

    Remember, many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our points of view. Making Palps the impetus behind the Force's creation of Anakin is merely a change in point of view.


    Again, I am not claiming that this will absolutely happen. In fact, odds are given all the evidence that we have that it won't. I just disagree with the people that vehemently say that it won't and can't happen. It most certainly can.
     
  14. All_Powerful_Jedi

    All_Powerful_Jedi Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2003
    Well put, Barth, and I think that this aspect of the story certainly could have played out. The Force still would have created Anakin, and I think the Prophecy would be even more ironic in this instance.

    But, I still don't think it would work in the end with Vader killing his "father" and playing the same "I am your father" card again.
     
  15. PhantomMenaceJPT

    PhantomMenaceJPT Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 28, 2004
    I'm hoping this is kept in. I like the way Palpatine suggests that you COULD consider me your father as opposed to "I am your father."

    Again, this was always an idea floating around in my own head but finding that GL actually scripted it into the "unused" plot is pretty awesome. It wouldn't bother me if he reused the surprising realization of "Who's You Daddy?"
     
  16. JustinPeeler

    JustinPeeler Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2003
    Barth posted on 4/11/05 8:40pm
    [i]Clever how? [/i]

    Read his posts. Even his R2D2 spy-cam theory, although quite a stretch, was quite well developed and he pointed out evidence for it in numerous places.

    And [b]Justin_Peeler[/b], I have read the Vanity Fair article. Perhaps you should read my post from Page 1 of this thread? I pointed out that this theory doesn't contradict anything, it doesn't contradict what Lucas said in Vanity Fair either.

    With this theory, it IS the Force that creates Anakin, but it is Palps who manipulates the Force to do this. He manipulates the Force to create Anakin to be his ultimate ally, but this backfires on him, and this ally kills him in the end.

    In a way, it is like saying that the Force operates in mysterious ways and subtle ways. An evil manipulater of the Force comes along and tries to use the Force do the most unnatural thing, of creating life. The Force turns around and bites him in the arse by guiding this creation to eventually kill the manipulator of the Force. You play with fire, you get burned!

    Remember, many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our points of view. Making Palps the impetus behind the Force's creation of Anakin is merely a change in point of view.


    Again, I am not claiming that this will absolutely happen. In fact, odds are given all the evidence that we have that it won't. I just disagree with the people that vehemently say that it won't and can't happen. It most certainly can.
    [hr][/blockquote]

    Howell's stuff is not clever. Why would a Sith ghost need a spycam in the first place? The Sith ghost can posses Palpatine and Dooku and Anakin, but it needs a spycam in R2-D2 to see what is going on with Padme? And this is "clever" to you?

    And you do not understand what Lucas said. He said the Force Itself created Anakin. Not that the Force was manipulated into creating Anakin, but that it was the will of the Force that Anakin be created.

    That was the whole point of that part of the article. He calls Vader a "demi-God", saying he has one mortal parent (Shmi) and one devine parent (The Force).

    You don't understand. Do not pretent to understand.

    Palpatine was never meant to have had anything to do with Anakin's creation. He was meant to [b]lie[/b] about having created Anakin. Cast off your theories and then actually read and understand the Vanity Fair article and maybe you will understand.

    Maybe.
     
  17. TheChosen1

    TheChosen1 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2001
    This is just a concept George toyed with, but he knew better so it never made it to the final script. Its not the first time this happened. Leia was never intended to be Luke's twin, but once it was decided, it was part of canon forever. Obi Wan was going to miraculously come back to life in the flesh to help Luke. Thank goodness that idea never made it. Also, Yoda's ghost was going to block Sidious' lightning and protect Luke. Another bad idea that never came to fruition. It works better that Luke faces the Emperor with zero help from Obi Wan or Yoda. Their ghostly forms can only impart knowledge, but they can't interfere.

    The Dooku engineering Shmi's death thing and the Sidious creating Anakin thing are both interesting ideas that George thought of. In fact, they were so obvious, many fans have came here speculating the same things years ago. To me, it works better that these ideas never made it. Its just how films are made. Ideas are thought up and not all of them are good. If George truly intended this to be the way it should be, then this would be in the final film. But its NOT.

    Just like a young Han Solo is not in the film. Its an interesting idea, but ultimately the film is better off without it.
     
  18. Barth

    Barth Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2002

    Justin_Peeler posted:


    And you do not understand what Lucas said. He said the Force Itself created Anakin. Not that the Force was manipulated into creating Anakin, but that it was the will of the Force that Anakin be created.

    That was the whole point of that part of the article. He calls Vader a "demi-God", saying he has one mortal parent (Shmi) and one devine parent (The Force).

    You don't understand. Do not pretent to understand.



    Wow! [face_thinking] Oh great sir with your grand wisdom and understanding beyond the level of everyone else.

    Your pig-headedness seems to confine your way of thinking. Why don't you try and think a little outside the box, and "take a step into a larger world" by debating and pondering possibilities. Darth_Howell_III is clever, unlike you, because he thinks outside the box and sees things in creative and novel perspectives.

    You don't have the monopoly on understanding things, my friend. ;) I was just giving a coherent explanation of how this scenario could happen. And as I have said before in this thread (check my reply to gabe on page 3), I am not commited to the fact that Sidious was telling the truth, I am just providing a rationale on how it could happen and how it could be interpreted and how it could be made consitent with everything else.

    I stand by the fact that Sidious statement "I have waited all these years for you to fulfill your destiny... I arranged for your conception. I used the power of the Force to will the midichlorians to start the cell divisions that created you." is consistent with what Lucas has said on this matter (consistent, regardless of whether or not it is true). Sidious uses the "power of the Force" to create Anakin. Therefore, it IS the Force itself that creates Anakin. By analogy, if a doctor participates in the artificial insemination of a woman, you could still say that the baby was created by "artificial insemination". You would also say that the doctor "arranged for the conception" by manipulating the technology to do the deed. Where does the buck stop? Is it the Force, is it the midichlorians? Is it Sidious?

    Qui-gon said that the midi-chlorians probably concieved Anakin. This too, is perfectly consistent with Palps remarks. Palps controls the midis, the midis then subsequently conceive Anakin.

    Lucas may have said that the Force created Anakin, but this could be interpreted to mean that the power of the Force was used to create Anakin. It is just a different point of view.

    The Force controls your actions, but it also obeys your commands. It tugs on you, and you tug on it. Palpatine uses the power of the Force more agressively. This is the nature of the Sith. He controls it for his own self-interest and greed. How does the Force respond by such selfish and unbalanced manipulations?

    One way to interpret this is that the only person that would create life for his own uses and for his own self interest is an incredibly powerful agent of evil, like a dark lord of the Sith. The response of the Force is to respond to this person's manipulations, but in doing so create a being, a chosen one, that will respond by ultimately bringing balance to the Force by destroying the evil. You commit the ultimate sin, you get the ultimate punishment.

    Again, in deference to J_P, I should clarify that I am merely pondering possibilities and discussing things.

    Speaking of the Vanity Fair article, Lucas also says in in:

    "I do see it, tonality-wise, as two trilogies. But they do, together, form one epic of fathers and sons."

    Interesting that Lucas uses the plural form "fathers". [face_thinking] Perhaps Justin, the man that understands everything so well and so beyond the level of us mortals can explain this little pluralization.

    Is this Lucas's little hint for us?
     
  19. mjerome3

    mjerome3 Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    May 11, 2000
    It's too evil a notion. If Palpatine was truly Anakin's father, that would make him Luke's grandfather. Seeing this, it would be extremely sickening in ROTJ because Palpatine would be trying to replace his son(Anakin) with his grandson(Luke). Then once Luke cuts off Vader's hand, Palpatine would urge Luke(his grandson) to kill Vader(his son) and take his place at his side.

    This is to me would be very sick...
     
  20. Darth_Howell_III

    Darth_Howell_III Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2002

    Unless Palpatine was speaking in tongues - acting as a medium for someone else's words.

    That would alleviate the whole biological problem.

    Of course, who could do such a dastardly thing to our boy?

    Plageuis is dead; cross him off the list of suspects. You remember him, he's the guy who supposedly rigged up a way to cheat deat--------
     
  21. Kyp

    Kyp Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2003
    Lucas probably put it in so that you idiotic millions of fanboys can discuss it all over the internet and post it on livejournals. It's working perfectly.

    It's a movie -- leave it at that. I really doubt Lucas put it in there so that Jedi_Bob can 'pwn' DarthSmokey and therefore increase his "Watched By" userlist.


     
  22. CyberTEA-201

    CyberTEA-201 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Feb 20, 2004
    hey JustinPeeler. Howell is gaining ground here. If this is true with sidious controling midiclorians to create anakin, I think Howell will win. Peeler you will lose.

    Howell has brought nothing but great ideas to this board, and you, my dear peeler are SO negative. This place is ABOUT bringing ideas to the table. Not destroying them. Get over it! WHat do you think these boards are for anyway?
    Check...

    Thank you Darth_Howell!!!
     
  23. darth-amedda

    darth-amedda Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2003
    This is probably the worst idea that has ever come through GL's mind.
    [face_sick]
    Thanks God it didn't get into the final version.


    I just try to believe that this page does not exist.
     
  24. Darth_Magus

    Darth_Magus Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2002
    The worst idea?

    Have you seen "Howard the Duck"?

     
  25. LeeKenobi

    LeeKenobi Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2002
    That is just ridiculous.

    "I started the cell divisions that created you"?

    So Palpy used the force to create a single sperm cell, transport it to Tatooine and impregnate one virginal slave woman?

    Please. He could have just scored with Sly Moore instead.
     
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