Lucas Ruining Original Trilogy

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by LukeTrue1, Jun 8, 2002.

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  1. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    You may disagree with the choices made in the SE, but again; these aren't your films.

    Brace yourself because you'll likely be even more upset over further changes made in the "archival edition".

    And, truly - they're only movies and if some changes made to them get your panties in a twitch, if these changes are the worst things that happen in your life; I think your life is happier than that of most.
  2. IMPERIALPILOT_SOLO Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2002
    star 1
    The bottom line is he did ruin them. They were fine the way they were otherwise there would not be millions of fans.
  3. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    The bottom line is he did ruin them. They were fine the way they were otherwise there would not be millions of fans.

    Wow! Yet another person stating their opinion as if it is the absolute, unquestionable truth. Amazing!

    What about future fans? Everyone that I know who did not grow up on the OT, who has not been a fan for most of their life, laughs at the effects in the OT.

    One of the ideas behind making these changes is to create a congruent, consistent-looking work. Imagine if, in 10 years, a little boy or girl watched Episode I, loved it and wanted to see the entire series - they watch II & III and then when they get to IV, suddenly the effects look like something out of the 70's. Something tells me that they would be less than thrilled.

    Over the course of the last few years, I have recruited several new Star Wars fans: These are people who have not watched the OT at all, let alone the hundreds of times that many fans have. ALL of these people like the PT and prefer the SEs to the original versions of the OT.

    The problem is that we, as devoted fans have grown up with these classics and have an emotional attachment to them in their original form. I adore the films and I have a special reverence for the originals, but that is superceeded by the need for Star Wars to gain a new generation of fans. In order for that to happen, I feel that the films need to be updated to work on a consistent level as a 6 part saga.

    Cope.
  4. Warsloth Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 1
    the PT is like the corn in your poop, once you have seen it, laughed at the corny jokes, its really disgusting, and it stinks...
    its not so much like the nuts in poop though, strangely enough... that is what the batman movies are for... to make you realize theres something worse out there to look at.
  5. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Well, that was an intelligent and well-thought-out argument.
  6. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    Ok folks! Let's get something straight. It's not "just" about our opinions. If that were the case than every flick that came along would be nominated for an academy award. Am I wrong? In other words there has to be some kind of objective critique of a movie "outside" of opinion. 2001: A Space Odyssey was technically a very good movie even thought a lot of people didn't like it. Even though ESB is technically and artistically a better movie than ANH most people prefer ANH. Does that make ANH a better movie? I can't actually say that I like ESB more than ANH but I can definitely compare the two side by side and conclude that ESB is better, indeed.

    As casual moviegoers we form our opinions of a film based on a combination of its technical aspects and our personal preferences. We can't just make comparisons based on subjectivity. Personal preference is subjective and just what it implies: personal. Technical issues lie outside of personal bias and, therefore, very concrete. Technical things cannot just be brushed aside. Are the new installments as good as the original in character development or not? Are they as good with the dialogue or not? Is Jar Jar Binks one of the biggest blunders in cinematic history or not? Did the prequels have way more potential to attract a wider audience with significant changes in directing and dialogue or not? Give me a break with, "It's just your opinion garbage." It's not just my opinion." There's a reason we have film critics. There's a reason we have film schools. It's not just about bias. The old trilogy really is better in most ways. If we can't agree on that than I really am wasting my breath here.

    People who think the prequels are up to par with the OT are just plain wrong. And I'm not just asserting my opinion. Based on "critical" evaluation within a standard set of criteria the original is just better.

    That's all I have to say. You prequel gushers are too easy to please and you're rewarding Mr. Lucas when he doesn't deserve it.
  7. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "Dr.E.,

    Batman is more then one persons vision. It has movies in animation as well as live action.

    the SW saga is LUCAS' vision. It is one movie with 6 chapters, let HIM tell the story HE wants to. There's your definition, those who allow the author / artist to tell HIS story."

    you might want to check the credits for the star wars films... three directors and MULTIPLE consultants, advisors, etc.

    ya GL made the films all alone with no contributions outside his own ideas and his own vision.

    sucker.
  8. Sophita Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4

    Are the new installments as good as the original in character development or not?

    Personally I think the characters in the PT are more advanced than the characters in the OT because they have far more prominant flaws-They are more "human" characters. Do the OT heroes even have any true character flaws? Luke's biggest flaw is his impatience. Please.

    Are they as good with the dialogue or not?

    None of SW's dialogue is exactly shakespeare. The prequels dialogue is, for the most part, on par with the majority of the OT's...even though there are a few clunkers. But people seem to forget there were quite a few clunkers in the OT as well. Neither is perfect.

    You prequel gushers are too easy to please and you're rewarding Mr. Lucas when he doesn't deserve it.

    Is it ok to LIKE the prequels and not be labeled a gusher? I like them, but I recognize their faults. I do the same for the OT. Neither is perfect, and neither is bone achingly bad. If you don't want to watch one, don't watch it. But it isn't going to ruin an already standing work, so I don't see how Lucas can be ruining the original trilogy. 0_o

    Man I hope that made sense.
  9. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Ok folks! Let's get something straight. It's not "just" about our opinions. If that were the case than every flick that came along would be nominated for an academy award. Am I wrong?

    Just who do you think this all-knowing academy is? Critics? *chuckles*

    No, the academy is mostly comprised of Hollywood execs (well-known for their expertise, n'est pas? *chuckle*), actors (I wonder if they went to film school...) and producers (Yep - cash makes for the best understanding of film.)

    Even with that aside, I'm not about to let my judgements be abdicated by critics alone: Many, if not most of them are disgruntled and embittered nay-sayers who, foregoing any success as directors themselves, have chosen to comment on the work of those who were able to rack up accomplishments in the film industry. Kudos to these bloated and covetous slugs for the ability to rip others to shreds, without necessarily having the ability to create that which they accuse others of doing poorly. Woot.

    In other words there has to be some kind of objective critique of a movie "outside" of opinion. 2001: A Space Odyssey was technically a very good movie even thought a lot of people didn't like it.

    First of all, I disagree that there "has to be" some form of "objective critique" on film. Why do we, as movie-going audiences need this? So that we can have pre-conceived notions of a work's merits before we actually see it? So that we can be espoused with certain films, based on the words of one or two people? I may be in the minority, but I've never seen much use in film criticism.

    I also contest the use of the word "objective" in this context. Isn't it somewhat naive to think that critics are genuinely objective? I'll grant you that Star Wars fans in general are most certainly not going to be objective in regards to their beloved saga, but to assert that critics will be is an equally ludicrous statement. Not only are they human and therefore biased in one way or another, they are also heavily entrenched in the business of film. This puts them in a position of power, which breeds an arrogance that is by no standard to be equated with that of the movie-going public. Critics tend to have a vendetta against successful films, a stronger one against sequels, and a historical dislike for the sci-fi/fantasy genre.

    Even though ESB is technically and artistically a better movie than ANH most people prefer ANH.

    To whom have you talked about this? I have yet to meet a single human being who prefers ANH to ESB. When asked, at least in my experience, 90% of people elevate ESB to the level of their favorite Star Wars film.

    As casual moviegoers we form our opinions of a film based on a combination of its technical aspects and our personal preferences.

    So do critics.

    We can't just make comparisons based on subjectivity. Personal preference is subjective and just what it implies: personal. Technical issues lie outside of personal bias and, therefore, very concrete. Technical things cannot just be brushed aside.

    By "technical", do you mean in the realm of cinematography or design? Story? Aristotelianism?

    Regardless, if one is basing their assessment on a list of "concrete" guidelines, I would hardly classify that as "objective". If we're talking about objectivity in its true sense, that would mean a judgement without any outside influences.

    Are the new installments as good as the original in character development or not?
    Are they as good with the dialogue or not? Is Jar Jar Binks one of the biggest blunders in cinematic history or not? Did the prequels have way more potential to attract a wider audience with significant changes in directing and dialogue or not?


    Once again, all of these factors will vary, depending on whom one is asking. Certainly not according to the omniscient Roger Ebert, the ever-so-expert creator of "Beneath the Valley of the Ultra-Vixens".

    But if you ask a scholar of mythology, one familiar with the unities of mythic story-telling, yo
  10. Commander Dan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 1999
    star 1
  11. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Thanks, Commander Dan! ;c)
  12. Christovsky Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2002
    star 1
    Okay, Okay!!

    It's obvious we won't agree on the fact that the OT is [supposedly] better than the PT.
    But let's face it, if we were to compare the two as HOW GOOD THESE MOVIES ARE -- 1 to 10; it is true that the majority would lead to the OT.

    Of course the PT will not and cannot be the same as the OT, but why trade films that present a fictional world with relatable characters with cheezy-fluff films?

    TO THE PERSON WHO STARTED THIS THREAD: You're right. Now when I watch ESB, I can't help but think of Jango the Jack-@$$ when little Boba arrives. It also makes me less curious about [the ESB] Vader and his past.

    Back to the other guys, like the PT all you want. However, you have to come to terms that the OT is argued as a better trilogy for a reason. So no more QUIT ACTING LIKE YOU KNOW HOW THE PT SHOULD BE, because if I were to ask YOU which were better -- BATMAN or X-MEN? Seriously folks, what would be your answer?

    I am not going to say THE PT SUCKS or YOU GUYS DON'T KNOW!! But I graduated from film school, and these movies DO NOT present any improvement in the style or content. To say that these movies are more enhanced than the OT is without a doubt, not a true statement.
    As cold and opinionated as that sounds, the truth is the OT presents better filmmaking than the PT.

    On a final note, stop bashing the bashers. They are bashing for a reason. Can YOU PT fans honestly say that the PT improves the beloved trilogy into an epic saga?
  13. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    Can YOU PT fans honestly say that the PT improves the beloved trilogy into an epic saga?

    Yes.

    It is the Silmarillion to the OT's Lord of the Rings. It is a great story, and it adds on to a great story. I like both equally, and I feel that the prequels enhance the OT, as well as being great themselves.
  14. Luke_Clone Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2002
    star 4
    "Can YOU PT fans honestly say that the PT improves the beloved trilogy into an epic saga?"

    With every fiber of my being, YES!
  15. Christovsky Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2002
    star 1
    I do not agree Lord Hyrdronium or the Clone of Luke -- however, I like that you like the PT as much as the OT. Sometimes I wish that I weren't so opinionated and could appreciate things a lot more.

    May the Force be with You.
  16. Luke_Clone Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2002
    star 4
    "May the Force be with You."

    You too, Christovsky. ;)
  17. Daniel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 1999
    star 1
    Dr.E, What's up with the name calling??? Not cool...

    Anyway the "Lucas is ruining the OT" is NOT fact. You want fact...

    LUCAS IS THE OWNER OF THE SW UNIVERSE. ANY CHANGES / DECISIONS MUST BE APPROVED BY HIM OR HIS COMPANY!!! If I am wrong about this WHERE ARE THE LAW SUITS AGAINST LUCAS???

    Ruining the OT is opinion and NOT fact PERIOD.
    I like the Jabba additions to ANH, I like the ending of ROTJ. I must admit I do NOT like "Greedo shooting first". These are MY opinions and are stated as such.

    PT is bad is opinion and NOT fact PERIOD.

    I've seen ANH at least 100 times, saw it when I was 12 when it first came out. Have been a fan ever since and have enjoyed EVERY release and chapter. Didn't see the Holiday Special, don't have time to read much EU, though I wish I did. I was NOT disappointed with TPM, but I have to admit I am disappointed with AOTC's love story. The love story is SO important for the saga that it needed to be even more believable than Han and Leia's love story. Again this is stated as MY opinion, because for some the love story worked. I hear the novel and DVD with deleted scenes will help explain Anakin and Padme's love story better, so I will wait for the paperback and DVD to come out.

    A true inconsistency is the friendship between OB1 and Anakin, but I will wait for EP3 to pass final judgement.

    One last thing, I stated above, I am in the middle of a SW marathon including EP1 and I AM ENJOYING THE HECK OUT OF IT. Too bad for you if you aren't having as much fun as I am. :b
  18. IMPERIALPILOT_SOLO Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2002
    star 1
    hey I agree the love story did stink but that is just my opinion, the book will probably be helpful just like TPM novel helped me like "little" Ani a bit. If Lucas want to change something he should add the Tusken scene to TPM.
  19. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    What Tusken scene to TPM?
  20. IMPERIALPILOT_SOLO Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2002
    star 1
    In the novel ani has to spend the night in the desert with Tuskens or something like that, it was four years ago so my memory is not to fresh.
  21. Daniel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 1999
    star 1
    CrwnPuppet, Great post, BUT you could have easily said it this way...

    Those who can DO...Those who can't are f'ing CRITICS.
  22. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Good point, Daniel. ;c)
  23. Daniel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 1999
    star 1
    Imperial_Solo, I remember the scene, but why was that important to the TPM movie???

    Ani is alot more kick but in the book, but I am not sure it helps the TPM movie.
  24. IMPERIALPILOT_SOLO Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2002
    star 1
    I just felt it added to his personality, it made you feel he wasn't some know it all kid.I'm gonna have to read it again but I just remember liking alot.
  25. son-of-skywalker13 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    star 2
    "Can YOU PT fans honestly say that the PT improves the beloved trilogy into an epic saga?"


    yes i can honestly say the PT improves the OT.
    I did not like the phantom menace a whole lot and it is probably my least favorite star wars movie but attack of the clones is my 2nd favorite SW movie so far.

    the PT is helping out the OT so much. i didnt like obi wan kenobi to much in ANH. i thought he was cool but he wasnt great. After he killed maul and i saw him in AOTC i have a new appreciation for him. Yoda is another improved character, we see him as the great warrior we only heard about in ESB.

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