Lucas Ruining Original Trilogy

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by LukeTrue1, Jun 8, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jedi_Master_Anakin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    Cwrnpuppet, this post is mostly for you. You stated in an earlier post this statement;

    "Wow! Yet another person stating their opinion as if it is the absolute, unquestionable truth. Amazing!"

    Well the point is that your opinion also is not the absolute, unquestionable truth. So the point remains that most of the original SW fans do not like the SE's because it ruined what made SW so cool at the time. The technology they had in 1977 was nothing compared to now. So the fact that they had Lightsabers, blasters, hover crafts, and everything else was amazing. They did not CGI, or anything dealing with computers, so what they did was simply phenomenal. So yes in a way GL did ruin SW with the SE's. But in a way he made them better, to most die hard 77' fans he ruined them. To the new mainstream "I wannabe cool" SW fans, yes they probably like them better. I myself never saw SW in the big screen, because I wasn't born then. But I have seen every edition of SW that has come out. And IMO the originals are still the best. I actually do not own the "THX version" or the "Special Edition" I have the original release of ROTJ and the 1993 release of ANH and ESB. So Naturally I am prejudice for those editions. So no, I am not one of the original fans because I wasn't around when the originals were made. All of the films came out before I was born. But ever since I was a child I have loved star wars. So to me and thousands or even millions of SW fans, the SE's are ruining what GL originally made. Yes he can edit, them and put in CGI and anything else you can imagine, but for me and many others it will never be the best. It may look nicer, sound nicer, and be of higher quality, but the Original film will always have a sense of home to us.

    Besides, the SE's are meant for a newer generation as you said Cwrnpuppet. They will like it more because they are more high tech and look nicer, but I don't think that GL wants to give the original Star Wars fan's a kick in the pants by almost getting rid of what he had at the begining with the OT. Star Wars episodes IV - VI I think will always be for the people who were around when SW wasn't some huge fad. And for people who grew up with SW. Liked them before the SE's. So I just think that people like you need to let go of the fact that the original SW fans don't like the SE's and just accept it. Let us be pissed that Lucas ruined SW with them. And most of all, you just like the rest of us, don't know ack crap, so please don't act like you do.
  2. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    For one thing, I was around when Star Wars premiered on the big screen way back in '77. I've had the fortune to see every installment on its opening night and I was a fan during all the intermening time, when Star Wars wasn't a big fad.

    Personally, I love the original versions: I am merely defending Lucas's choice to make revisions.

    You say that, "It may look nicer, sound nicer, and be of higher quality, but the Original film will always have a sense of home to us."

    Exactly. My love for the originals is based mostly on nostalgia and "home," as you so aptly put it. I love the OT for what it has always been, but I see no reason to begrudge Lucas the chance to make changes, which may enable future generations to enjoy them as much as I have and to also find a sense of "home" in them.

    Of course what was done with the original releases was amazing for its time. It still is amazing to myself and to countless other fans, who grew up with these films. For those who did not, however, it has been my experience that they are not so bowled over by them.

    There's a big different between saying, "The PT and the SEs have ruined the OT for me" and saying, "The PT and the SEs have ruined the OT - PERIOD and if you disagree, you're just wrong!"

    Also, when did I say that my opinion was absolute? As far as I can tell, I didn't. My posts tend to be littered with phrases such as, "...in my opinion", "...if you ask me", "...as far as I am concerned", etc.

    This is a forum and as such, it is a great place for debate. But debate requires respect and the ability to see other perspectives. Anyone entering into such a fray by saying "you're just wrong" isn't really doing anyone any good, IMHO. If you dislike the PT or the SE, that's fine; but state reasons for doing so and be prepared to debate those reasons, amicalbly with others.
  3. Jedi_Master_Anakin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    That is exactly my point. Do not get me wrong I like AOTC. I think it is a great film. TPM is another story, but the point remains, that I don't think that GL doesn't have the right to edit his movies to the end of his life. But what I am saying is that the SE's ruined SW FOR ME!! And for countless others. (as we have seen in threads like unto this one) And if really want to know the reasons that I dislike the SE's is this one point.

    THE MOVIES CAME OUT IN 1977, 1980, 1983!!! They were complete when they were released. And I can understand that GL wants to attract new fans, thats completely his right and understandably so. But My point is that the Originals are Star Wars. The special editions and the new rumoured Archival Editions are just that. Editions, branches off from an original film to A) make more money. and B) gain others fans to furthermore accomlish goal 'A'. So yes, I agree with you that GL has every right in the world to do whatever he wants to SW. But he will never take away people like you, me and countless others love for the Originals. So I have no beef with you I just wrote a post that after reading it seemed hostile. I appologize for it, but you now understand my opinion, so my goal has been accomplished.
  4. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    See, I think a lot of these problems would be solved if teh original versions would be released on DVD, as well as the "archival editions". That way, everyone should be happy and able to watch the version of their choice. ;c)
  5. Jedi_Master_Anakin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    I agree fully. I think that the rumoured Archival editions should have both the Archival film and the Original Film for all for people like me. Or just release it by itself.
  6. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    I'm sure that they will eventually be released. I know that I read somewhere that Lucas's buds are trying to convince him to do so.

    It would be nice if they were included with the Archivals, but at the same time, we're already looking at quite a hefty price tag on those - any more discs and we'll have to take out a loan to buy the puppies.

    A seperate set would be perfect, for my needs and also would work well for those who only want the originals and don't want to pay extra for the Archivals.

    We can cross our fingers!

    BTW, I should have said this in my first response to you, but I really respect the fact that you listed your reasons for your dislike of the SE - it made talking about the subject so much easier and also gave us some common ground. A lot of other posters would do well by your example. ;c)
  7. Jedi_Master_Anakin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    Same to you also. I always see threads where people only say that something sucks and give no supporting evidence. It is kind of irritating.

    And I think that they will have to eventually sell the Originals on DVD. He cannot afford to not.
  8. Luke_Clone Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2002
    star 4
    Jedi_Master_Anakin

    As a "newer" fan I just want to say that I don't think that GL needed to add CGI to attract new fans. I think that it was wise to rerelease Star Wars in order to attract new fans, heck he hooked me back in 1997 as there is nothing quite like seeing Star Wars on the big screen as the SE trailer duely noted ;), but I also think that Lucas could have rereleased the "original" OT and achieved the same end result. I, personally, can appreciate "old school" special effects just as much as I can the newer stuff. That being said, when it comes to new releases I want to see the best possible effect (with a reasonable price tag :) ) in the film regardless of the "technique" used to bring the effect to the screen. :)

    Personally, I think that the CGI fixes were primarily added to resolve Lucas' own "beefs" with his movies rather than attract new fans. I admit I don't like all of the changes Lucas made (although I will say that I do like most of the SE changes), but like Crownpuppet and yourself, I don't begrudge him the right to make these changes.
  9. Jedi_Master_Anakin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    Yeah, but if you look at it from GL's point of view you can obviously understand that he wanted to attract younger viewers. Look at TPM and AOTC. They have a lot of childish humour that childish people will like. Kids like the top of the line visuals and top of the line sound. So it makes sense for him to put things like that in there to attract kids. So yes I do respect GL's right to fix beefs that he had with the Originals but in no way can the SE or the Archival Editions ever compare to the Original because they are not the original and they are just newer additions. Take for example Planet of the Apes that came out again. As a whole people didn't like it as much as the original. Granted it looked and sounded much nicer, but it is not the original. I believe that it is the same principle here. Granted Planet of the Apes was done by a different person the second time, but the meaning is quite the same.
  10. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    I think one of the main reasons Lucas did the SEs was to test out the digital FX before using them for the PT, as well as fixing his "beefs", as mentioned above.

    Either way, I like both versions. The originals are classic and near & dear to me, and the SEs have some great new visuals that really do add a lot. I have some problems with some additions, but to be honest, they are very minor things. Things that I never would have questioned, had I never seen the originals.

    All in all, I think that Lucas is playing his cards well with this - as long as he releases the originals on DVD, as well.
  11. Jedi_Master_Anakin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    Agreed. As long as he releases the Originals on DVD I will be as happy as you can get me.
  12. Rowland Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 1
    Jedi_Master_Anakin

    "Look at TPM and AOTC. They have a lot of childish humour that childish people will like. Kids like the top of the line visuals and top of the line sound. So it makes sense for him to put things like that in there to attract kids. "


    So are you saying that the OT had no humor directed towards a younger audience, nor top of the line visuals and sound for their time?
  13. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    I think that the Star Wars films have always been geared towards kids, but characters such as Jar Jar and other aspects do make TPM a bit more kid-friendly than the others.

    It works really well, the way I see it: Kids will watch TPM, be drawn in to the saga and have a fantastic story awaiting them that was merely bubbling under the surface in TPM.
  14. Jedi_Master_Anakin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    Of course not. I am just saying that the childish Humour used in the PT's is more often and more childish. And for the time, yes they it was top of the line technology. But the film was made with the top of the line technology in 1977, not top of the line in 1997 like the SE's were. But very good thought though. Caught me off guard.
  15. Daniel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 1999
    star 1
    This is an unconstructive comment but...

    I think the SE Battle on the Deathstar (ANH) is WWAAAYYYY better looking than the original and I have been a SW Freak since '77. Used to ride the bus to the only theater in town showing it (20mi away), at one time I could recite the whole darn movie word for word (ANH).

    I tell you what though, I own the original ANH on laserdisk and a Laserdisk player. So when the OT comes out on DVD, I plan on doing my own Phantom Edit and edit out "Greedo Shooting First", then I will have the perfect EP4 flick. :D
  16. IMPERIALPILOT_SOLO Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2002
    star 1
    The battle of Yavin was better in SE but Jedi was a total mess. The palace band was better in the original. ESB was perfect, they did everything right on that one. Just little additions no major changes.
  17. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "Can YOU PT fans honestly say that the PT improves the beloved trilogy into an epic saga?

    Yes.

    It is the Silmarillion to the OT's Lord of the Rings. It is a great story, and it adds on to a great story. I like both equally, and I feel that the prequels enhance the OT, as well as being great themselves."

    please tell us what the PT adds to the OT? what new infomation that is crucial to the OT do we learn from the PT. to me the PT is just a rehash of stuff we already know about from watching the OT.

    what is the purpose of the PT? why is it's plot the story we already know? the story related in the OT using only a few lines of dialogue.

    please i would love to know what the PT does the enhance the OT.
  18. Daniel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 1999
    star 1
    Dr.E, What's up with the name calling??? Not cool...

    Not that you really give a rip if somebody actually answers the question you asked BUT,

    Here's how the PT enhance the OT for me. I'm enjoying the background story and it answers questions that I have wondered about...

    How or what caused Anakin to fall to the darkside

    Who was the mother of the Skywalker twins

    How or what causes the Old Republic to collapse

    How powerful is the Emperor, everyone is scared of him but you don't know why. In the OT he has Force Lighting, but in the PT he has the abiliy to hide his Force ability where no one can sense it. It's neat seeing the Emperor is skilled enough to manipulate the entire Galatic Senate and the entire Jedi Counsel.

    Why in the OT only 2 Sith lords, you find out from the PT that the Sith order can only handle 2 of them at a time.

    When and how were the Skywalker twins seperated. I think it's neat that you can see where the Skywalker twins get their personality traights from. Why does Luke feel he's been to Dagoba before???

    Watching Yoda / Ob1 kick butt, really adds to the respect they deserve.

    Yoda warns about what leads to the Darkside Force in ESB. In the PT you see the concequences of flirting with the emotions that lead to the Darkside.

    Yoda says to Luke, Before you can become a Jedi you must face Vader. From the PT you learn that this is Luke's "Jedi Trial" IOW the final test to becoming a Jedi. I know this because Ob1's defeat of Maul was considered his Trial which lead to his permotion to becoming a Jedi Knight.
  19. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    Daniel pretty much stated all of the reasons, but I'll put my own down here:

    It shows how Anakin fell to the Dark Side and became Vader
    It shows how the Emperor rose to power
    It shows the grandeur of the old Republic, and how it collapsed
    It enhances the character of Obi-Wan
    It makes Anakin a more tragic figure
    For the above reason, it makes his redemption far more powerful
    It makes everything in the OT that much richer, since we know its background
    It elaborates on things only briefly referred to in the OT; for example, the Clone Wars, the Old Jedi Order, etc.

    Besides enhancing the OT, it is a great story in and of itself.

    That is why I love the PT.

    Thanks, Christovsky and Jedi_Master_Anakin, for respecting my point of view. I'll do the same for you.
  20. Luke_Clone Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2002
    star 4
    "Kids like the top of the line visuals and top of the line sound."

    Hasn't Star Wars always had these two features though? ANH did win the oscar for best effects and a special oscar for best sound effects (for Ben Burrt). In fact, all of the OT movies won the Special Effects Oscar, correct me if I'm wrong.

    I point this out, not because I have a problem with your statement, Jedi_Master_Anakin but because some people have deluded themselves into forgetting about how truly "awesome" the effects in the OT were back in the early 80's. They want a return to "old school effects" (in regards to the prequels). Well those "old school" effects were top of the line in the late 70's and early 80's... now George is using the top of the line effects of today. Did anyone really think he would being doing otherwise? :)
  21. Jedi_Master_Anakin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    Your totally right Luke_Clone, see and I don't have a problem with GL using top of the line technology and effects. If you read some of my earlier posts you will see that my only beef is the SE's. They ruined what made SW amazing at its time. In fact it was ahead of its time, it was unmatched in effects when it came out. Thats one of the reasons why people liked SW so much. Because no one else could match that kind of effects. But now with the PT's, they are nothing special. Anyone can make CGI graphics now, its nothing special. So when GL made the SE's it took away from the uniqueness of the Original Trilogy. They ceased to be something out of the ordinary when he replaced (obviously outdated but cool when they came out) the original effects. So thats why I dislike them. He changed things that people like me had grown to love. If you want to know my beefs, here are the major ones.

    1) Luke's pathetic scream in ESB. This added effect made his sacrificial leap away from the Dark Side less believable. It made it sou nd like Luke fell.

    2) Jabba in ANH. Looks way too CG.

    3) Luke, Obi-Wan, and the droids entering into Mos-Eisley. Again looks obviously CG.

    4) Han's changed statement in ROTJ from 'Trust me' to 'I can see a lot better'. This is obviously changed, you can see his mouth saying trust me but thats not what comes out. Its like editing a swear word on a TV release.

    5) Jedi Rocks..... The author of this song needs to be tortured for the rest of his/her pitiful existance. I was made stupider for listening to such utter crap.

    6) The closing scene in ROTJ. Its okay, and I like a few aspects of the idea, but I think they made it overdone. How the hell would the entire galaxy know that the Emperor died?

    7) The sarlac pit in ROTJ again looks too CG.

    8) GREEDO DOES NOT SHOOT FIRST!!!!!! Han cannot dogde a laser bolt aimed at his head.

    9) Prepare my star destoryer for my arrival. This line isn't aweful, but I think its still stupid.

    10) 'Your lucky you got out of there', is just plain and simple, stupid.

    11) 'Close the blast doors' also just a stupid tid bit.

    12) Falcon taking off from Mos Eisley

    13) Falcon taking off from Yavin

    14) Falcon taking landing on Yavin IV base.

    NOTE: 12-14 just looked dumb IMO

    15) The x-wings and others taking off from Yavin 4 and flying past it.

    16) Battle of Yavin in general, I didn't really like, I think the original was just fine.

    17) Cloud City's new exterior. I just didn't like this one either.

    18) The Wampa in ESB looked rediculous. I really didn't like that one.

    19) And then the Biggs scene I think was better left out.

    And I know that there are some others, but I cannot think of them right now. So there you have it, my beefs with the SE's.
  22. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Everyone has listed some solid reasons as to how the PT enhances the OT and I agree with those reasons. But moreso than explaining a few questions that we may have had, when watching the OT, I feel that the PT provides us with a much more deliberate and well-paced story arc.

    I would say that while ANH blew audiences away in '77 and was a fantastic & exciting film, as the beginning of a multi-part saga; it doesn't serve all of the functions of a typical starting point. In this way, *gasp* TPM is actually a much more fitting beginning. Many have claimed that Episode I isn't as exciting, intriguing or epic as ANH and I agree with them. But, this is just how it should be.

    If you're looking at a 6-part story, you don't want to blow your audience's mind in the first chapter. You first set up the world, the characters, and the general theme. When I watch TPM, I always try to do so in a somewhat "Star Wars blind" way - I try to watch it, imagining that I know nothing of Star Wars and that this is my first experience with it. It's interesting: When I do this, 90% of the things that troubled me about TPM seem to melt away.

    Without prior expectations of "what a Star Wars movie SHOULD be," Menace is truly fascinating to me: I am dropped into this richly textured and strange world with a working fabric all its own. Without knowing all that was explained to me in the OT, these Jedi people seem mysterious, yet accessible; classically mythic, yet altogether new.

    The gorgeous worlds with their vistas and contrasting environments are lush and enravishing. This galaxy is a slightly dangerous, but also relatively light-hearted place. It's a nice little adventure that draws the viewer into this world, while only providing minor hints of what is to come.

    A "fresh" viewer may think something to the effect of "This is nice: We have a society of super-human warriors with a strict moral code, we have a democratic republic of planets, we have wonderfully stylized ships, we have a mysterious, lurking villain, we have a seemingly sweet and harmless kid, we even have silliness in Jar Jar Binks...

    Taken only in context of themselves, the galaxy into which we are drawn is a much less harsh place than that of, say, ANH and while many fans were disappointed in this, I feel that it works extremely well without bias. It helps to paint the Republic as a fairly nice place to live. This only makes what is to come all the more surprising and genuinely tense, as the story moves forward:

    What? That nice little kid is backtalking his master... He's slaughtering Tuskens!

    Geeze, that goofy Jar Jar alien is seeming a bit sad, now...

    What the hell is happening to the Republic? Man, that Palpatine guy was right - it's filled with "greedy, squabbilng delegates" and so was Amidala; it "no longer functions"... Speaking of Palpatine, he seems to be up to something. This doesn't bode well.

    Holy crap! A clone army? What the bloody hell is going on, here? This is alot more intense than I thought!

    We can only speculate on what Episode III will bring to the plate, but I can imagine that it will more or less bring the sky down on our metaphorical heads. Things will seem hopeless - our cute little kid will have turned to the Dark Side; that in itself being a concept that we are just beginning to understand, the Republic will have fallen and become the Empire, our trusted Palpatine will become a dictator, and almost all of our heroes will be dead.

    There's no hope! How can Obi Wan and Yoda (presumably, the only heroes to survive) set everything right? Boom - A New Hope! Along comes Luke, Ani's son who seems like a generally nice guy, but he's already showing signs of being like good old Dad... Maybe our hero, Obi-Wan can help him out... Holy FECK! Screw that idea - Obi, who we have come to know and love over these three films has been sliced in half by our once-hero Anakin, not to mention this space station that we've been hearing about; it's functional now. It can destroy planets.

    Poor Alderaan. *sniff*
  23. Jedi_Master_Anakin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    WOW, that was an amazing post. Even though I really dislike TPM, you made sense of it with your post. Even though it was llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllloooooooooooo
    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
    nggggggggggggggggggggg
    ggggggggggggggg!!


    God I hate scrolling.
  24. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Thanks, Jedi_Master_Anakin!

    I know it's long - I tend to be longwinded, when typing, but what do you expect? I'm a writer by profession. Typing is like talking to me. ;c)
  25. Daniel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 1999
    star 1
    C-Puppet,

    You got it exactly right. You're suppose to watch EP1 through EP6 with UN-Star Wars'd Eyes. EXCELLENT POST.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.