Lucas took our critisms of TPM to heart

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by hawk, May 19, 2002.

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  1. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    How many times have we bashers of TPM been told that Lucas doesn't care what we want from the movies, he is making SW for himself and will not change anything to suit the dissapointed fans?

    Check out this quote from Who Weekly magazine:

    Samuel L Jackson

    "Menace was a kiddie movie. [Clones] is not ... I think fans are more excited this time, because everyone has heard that [director] George [Lucas] heard their critisms, took them to heart, and made something special."

    So for once and for all, admit that Lucas DOES care what we think and tried to improve on his last effort. How else can you explain why this film is receiving better fan reviews? What did Lucas improve upon?

    Story
    Less Jar Jar
    More action
    Darker/adult tone
    Clone Wars
    More humour
    Better dialogue

    All the things we bashers claimed were missing in TPM are present in AOTC. So, according to the above quote, Lucas did it for the dissapointed fans. So thank the bashers for AOTC my friends. We helped Lucas out.
  2. AgentCoop Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    I think you're absolutely right. I remember sitting in the theatre and thinking at numerous points during the movie that I was seeing exactly what had been missing from TPM. No one can convince me that it's all a big coincidence and that Lucas hasn't deviated from his master plan. Lucas is a businessman, and a damn good one. He thought his fans would dig TPM, and when a lot of them didn't he went back to the drawing board.
  3. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Well, a few of the things i think he sort of had no choice, like the clone wars, and some of the adult tones. I mean, how are you going to make a love story semi realistic, yet kiddied down the way TPM was?

    But some of the other things, like Jar Jar maybe (I am sure his roll could be expanded, a good film maker should be able to do anything...) may have been toned down due to fan reaction.

    Also, the Mids. They way they were handeled in AOTC may have been due to fan reaction.
  4. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    I agree with you, hawk. It's nice to know that maybe Lucas actually does care about his fans, and put them first when making this film. He certainly impressed me this time around.

    One of the things I thought about while watching Jar Jar this time was: "Why the hell wasn't he like this in TPM?" He was at least dignified, even if he was still a bit goofy. I'm curious to see if his role is expanded more in Episode III (maybe he'll actually use the Force or something!)

    As to the midis, I think they'll crop up again in Episode III, if only to show how far off the Jedi were (with regards to their overall purpose in the grander scheme of the Force). ;)

  5. ElfStar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 4
    While AotC is certainly a superior film to TPM, I still don't think it's anything that special. To me, it felt like Lucas paid attention to our complaints, but in the process, he forgot to have fun. I never got the feeling George really enjoyed making this movie. If his crime with TPM was having too much "fun", his crime with AotC was too little fun.
  6. MrCrowley Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    Actually, the thing that shocked me in the beginning of the movie, was that Jar-Jar didn't irritate me in the least.
    The "Binkster" almost totally ruined TPM (IMO), but in AOTC I felt he had a purpose.
    "Well, SHUT ME DOWN", to use the immortal words of our beloved Goldenrod.

    Wonderful movie!
  7. MrCrowley Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    Elfstar said:
    "While AotC is certainly a superior film to TPM, I still don't think it's anything that special. To me, it felt like Lucas paid attention to our complaints, but in the process, he forgot to have fun. I never got the feeling George really enjoyed making this movie. If his crime with TPM was having too much "fun", his crime with AotC was too little fun."

    This is where a lot of us differ wildly in our opinion.
    My first thought coming out of the theater was; "Thank God, George is having fun in the "Star Wars" universe again.
    In fact if anyone asked me to shortly summarise AOTC, the word "fun" would come up all too often :).
  8. a2dmusic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2001
    star 3
    I agree. "Fun" was the operative term for me with AotC. It was the most fun I'd had at a movie in years.
  9. Oakessteve Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 9, 1999
    star 6
    I think anyone who denies that George didn't listen to some of the fans complaints on this one is ignoring a rather important character in Attack of the Clones, that being Jango Fett. Now, if back in 1980, nobody had got as excited about Boba Fett as they did have, I don't think they'd be much of a chance of such a minor character appearing in Episode II, and playing such a central role. Just imagine if instead of everybody loving Boba Fett, they had all gone for Dengar, instead? Or IG-88? Or Zuckuss? If that bounty hunter with the long nose in Star Wars had a huge cult following, would he be appearing in Attack of the Clones? I think anybody who claims that George doesn't listen to fan criticism to some degree is clearly delluding themselves. Anyhow, that was rather off topic, but I just felt like being controversial!
  10. Padmewan McGregor Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1999
    star 3
    I mean, how are you going to make a love story semi realistic, yet kiddied down the way TPM was?

    You could make it the way it came out in AOTC.
  11. Gahiggidy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 1999
    star 1
    NEWSFLASH; people DID like TPM!!

    The Gallup organization did a research survey in the Summer of '99. The results were that the public pretty much game Episode I positive reviews. I'm qouting from Memory, but around 60% rated it as "Good", 15% as "One of the Greatest", 20% as "Fair", and 5% as "Poor". Give or take a few percentage points, that's what the general public thought of the movie. Also, Qui Gonn was the favorite character of the film, the younger you were the more highly you rated the film, and the ones who saw it soon after the release rated it better than the ones who saw it later in the Summer.
  12. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    News Flash: The most common compliment from critics is "better than TPM" used in a neagive way towards TPM.

    News Flash: Read the opening post. If people loved TPM that much, there would have been all those things I listed in the first post not being present in AOTC.

  13. Raz Zaphon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2000
    star 4
    You guys have such large inferiority complexes that I just won't bother.......
  14. Oakessteve Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 9, 1999
    star 6
    Why'd you post in here then? And it seems to me that the people you refer to aren't the only ones with large inferiority complexes, Raz.
  15. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    George couldn't care less about the people who didn't like this or that about TPM. AOTC is the way it is because that was ALWAYS the plan. Sometimes I wonder why all of you have these delusions of grandure.

    This is what I have been saying all along. George knows better than any of you how to make these films. Just because you don't understand why the first film had to be the way it was doesn't mean it was done wrong.
  16. Luca_Brasi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2001
    If you want to take credit for these 'improvements' then I blame all of you for GL's abbandoning his tried and true method of shooting star wars films for something that looks like Gladiator or The Fellowship of the Ring.

    It makes sense the TPM is a much light hearted film than AOTC. It's a wonderful way of contrasting the happier times of the old republic against what will happen in ep. III.

    And there is no evidence that supports your theory hawk. Sam Jackson isn't apart of the creative proccess. He can't possibly know exactly why GL did the things he did with AOTC.

    Oakessteve:

    'I think anyone who denies that George didn't listen to some of the fans complaints on this one is ignoring a rather important character in Attack of the Clones, that being Jango Fett.'

    So why did Boba Fett only get about 1.5 minutes of screen time in ROTJ? Why did he die a punks death?
  17. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    If Lucas too the Basher criticims to heart, he did so in 1999 when he announced that he next one would be darker, and the third would be very dark. But considerign where the tale is heading - as indicated by TPM's teaser poster, this shouldn't be asurprie to anyone.


    I'm sure the Bashers are complaining about Threepio's comedic antics in the middle of the battle in AOTC. At least they'd be complaining if they were consistent.

    Still that scene shows that the Gusher claims that comedy in the middle of a lot of action is a Star Wars tradition and NOT something new in TPM.

  18. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    People said they wanted more action and more humor. AOTC has both. Now they complain about the humor being "inappropriate" and "silly" and say that the action takes away from character development.

    Whatever.
  19. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Well Shelly, i tend to think that bashers wanted more meaningful action that has something to do with the story rather than a side adventure. And that they wanted humor that is good rather than poop and farts. Atleast, if I said that, that is what i meant.

    I think that maybe Lucas listened to some of the louder complaintes, Mids and Jar Jar maybe, but weather or not he did anything about them in another matter. The fact still remains that fans got (mostly) what they want in those two area. We will never realy know for sure if mids were going to be used in AOTC, maybe make the clones powerful or some 50'ish sci fi B movie type thing like that. And i think that if Lucas really wanted to, Jar Jar could have had a larger roll in AOTC. But the fact remains that he did not.

    So, does that mean that Lucas did what he wanted and by chance gave the fan what they wanted, or did he listen to the fans and try to give them what they wanted. Either way, the fans got what they wanted.

    (BTW, I was using the term 'fans' lightly)
  20. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    "Also, the Mids. They way they were handeled in AOTC may have been due to fan reaction."

    Are you sure you don't mean "not handled"? ;)

    Go-Mer, tell me and everyone else that George always planned on Qui-Gon discovering Anakin. That it was "always" a part of his super-duper Star Wars yellow college ruled Journal.

    C'mon! :p

    Look at what Clones has that Menace lacks: Battles that actually mean something to the outcome of the story! A chase after an assasination attempt! A fight on a landing platform in the rain after OB1 discovers Jango is behind the assasination(or the instigator).

    What Menace lacks, Clones has loads of. The space battle, and the end ground battle only needed to show the main story points leading up to the final duel.

    EDIT: "It makes sense the TPM is a much light hearted film than AOTC. It's a wonderful way of contrasting the happier times of the old republic against what will happen in ep. III"

    It only makes sense that Clones is a BETTER, FAR BETTER film than Menace.

    Clones also takes chances, while Menace just seems tired.

    Menace didn't need to be "dark", whatever that means. It just had to be full of high-spirited fun, and full of adventure and not drag.

    I have one big question for TPM lovers: If TPM was such a "great set-up" for the other two prequels and the rest of the saga then where's the midichlorians? Where's the revelations of Qui-Gon's importance? Where are all the damn things you TPM lovers have said will "all be explained in the next one"? WHERE'S THE ANSWERS? ;)
  21. Oakessteve Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 9, 1999
    star 6
    Luca_Brasi: I have no idea. But he did edited him into Star Wars and gave him a bit more to do in Return of the Jeid, so that must have been because of something.
  22. Ardens_Furore Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2001
    star 4
    I'm glad that the bashers weren't around when TPM was being written. Or else it would have ended up being a very, very bad addition to the saga and the overall arc of the Star Wars story would have been destroyed. In order for AOTC and Episode III to be effective, TPM had to have been the way it was. This leads us back to the OT, where we get a restoration of innocence at the end. Had the bashers gotten their movie in TPM, the saga would never reach a complete circle. That would have been truly sad.

    where's the midichlorians? Where's the revelations of Qui-Gon's importance?

    Midichlorians were adequately covered in TPM and don't need more coverage. Even we have to explain life itself in terms of chemical reactions and scientific methods. Really, does it take away from how special life actually is? I'd say no. The Force is no different.

    And Qui-Gon... Let's just say we need a dead Jedi who we are familiar with for Episode III.
  23. Luca_Brasi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2001
    Oakessteve:

    I think that George listens to his fans, and does try to please them. Hence Boba Fett's appearence in the SE of ANH, and maybe one or two of the cuts to Boba in Jabba's palace. But I don't think that he'd change a major charactor just because that's what a few fans on the internet want. Boba Fett's involvement in ROTJ isn't much more than a quick cameo, while Jango Fett was the one of the major villians of AOTC. While I'm sure that Jango hasn't been in the original plan since 1977, I do however believe that he probably has been since 1994.

    And if George really was giving in to all those who have been complaining about TPM since 1999 why didn't he write out Jar Jar completely?
  24. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Look at what Clones has that Menace lacks: Battles that actually mean something to the outcome of the story!

    But the battle of Naboo DOES mean something to the story. HOW Palpatine got elected to the position of Supreme Chancellor is critically important to the saga. We NEED to see that to the galaxy, he appeared to merely be lucky or in the right place at the right time. Yet the reality is that he manipulated the TF, pushed for taxation of trade routes, created the conflict at Naboo and then used the small war for Naboo to get elected as Supreme Chancellor.

    If none of this had been explained in a plausible way, or at all, then people would be asking "Hey how did Palpatine become Chancellor anyway? We don't get the whole story."

  25. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    "But the battle of Naboo DOES mean something to the story."

    No, I don't mean the TF blockade and invasion I mean the actual ground battle between the gungans and droid army. The battle was a diversion to draw the army out of Theed. Okay, fine it worked. But, we get lingering shots of Jar Jar bumbling, smacking himself, and being an overall idiot.

    Why have such an important character in TPM, with such a prominent role, reduced to a cameo in the next film?

    If he's so loved and adored, why not have him in more of Clones? Hell, why not have him train as a Jedi and fight in the Clone Wars?

    Face it, TPM was an abberation. A lackluster Star Wars film. I remember too many here saying "Well, if you didn't like TPM, you won't like AOTC". Oh, really? LOL!

    Lucas directed Clones like it was the first film in the most popular saga in modern times.

    Actually, Lucas himself wrote a great version of TPM; unfortunately, he shot the wrong draft. ;)
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