Lucas took our critisms of TPM to heart

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by hawk, May 19, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Ah yes, that (pathetic excuse for an) article on Salon.com, the entirety of which you did not post. Nothing in that article shows Lucas is "taking the criticism to heart." In fact, it shows nothing more than the writer demonstrating that Lucas is absolutely right to think what he does about critics.
  2. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    Sorry Hawk & DrE but that doesn't prove anything of the sort. Lucas at that point must have been sick of critics misunderstanding and ignorantly critiquing his film based on the most absurd claims.

    From what I see he is angry at having his work being trodden on by nobodys with no knowledge of the world or film.
    He is more upset that people get the wrong end of the stick of his films than he made mistakes.

    I'm sorry but until, and i mean UNTIL, Lucas flat out says "I gave in to the fans" " Then I'm sticking to the only truth that has come out of Mr George Lucas' mouth that JJB and everything you see in AOTC and will see in EP3 are not down to a bunch of whiny adults who've outgrown the franchise.

    Sorry to have gotten a little heated there. Obviously you can believe you've had an effect, such is your right, but I personally think its totally off the mark and silly. I'll happily believe that GL did what he did in AOTC because of the story rather than to "make it up to" the dissenting fans.
    Remember the unhappy lot are the minority, why would Lucas upset the majority to please a minority? ?[face_plain]

    The answer is he wouldnt.
  3. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Actually Durwood, you forgot to put the "hate..." in inverted comas searching for the phrase not just key words "hate" and "luke skywalker". I did my own research.

    "Hate Jar Jar Binks" 177 hits

    "Hate Jar Jar" 510 hits

    "Hate Luke Skywalker" 18 hits

    "Love Luke Skywalker" 53 hits

    "Love Jar Jar Binks" 72

    I credit the more love hits to people having to defend Jar Jar. Since nobody has to defend 18 hits on Google for Luke, we probably would get fewer people writing pages defending him.

    On a side note, to specify how innacurate Durwood's searches were, when using his links, the second link has the name "Luke Skywalker" and then searched for the word "hate" in the phrase "anger leads to hate". So they are unrelated.

    Nice try.
  4. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Ah yes, that (pathetic excuse for an) article on Salon.com, the entirety of which you did not post. Nothing in that article shows Lucas is "taking the criticism to heart." In fact, it shows nothing more than the writer demonstrating that Lucas is absolutely right to think what he does about critics.

    Lucas has every right to bash the critics who bash his movie. However, in that article, he gets so carried away saying they have no talent and don't know about anything etc that it is obvious that he is having a go at them in retaliation to their criticisms. Hence, he takes their criticism's to heart. He obviously is affected by the nagativity.
  5. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Just one more point. It is funny when looking at a google search for the key words "hate" and "Jar Jar". They imediately take you to sites where the "hate" is associated with JJ. With "Luke Skywalker", it simply takes you to sites with the more common name (explaining why there was more hits) and then tries to find the word "hate" somehwere else on the page. This further emphasises how much JJ is actually hated.

    EDIT: And one more funny thing. Checking Durwood's links again for "Love" and "Jar Jar", one of the links went to a site saying "Kill Jar Jar Now" with the keyword "love" linking to "I love your site". LOL :D
  6. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    give me a break Durwood, i am not talking about word matches, im talking about jar jar binks hate site matches. Yahoo listed enough anti-jar jar sites to give them their own category.
  7. Glorian-Eversea Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2002
    star 2
    Greetings ladies and gentlemen, and a special salute to my basher comrades.

    On the TV gameshow Pyramid, one of the subjects last week was "The Jar-Jar Binks Fan Club."

    The names are generally sarcastic or clever turn phrases for what the category really is about. In this case: "Things most people hate."

    Host Donny Osmond then said, "like Jar Jar Binks."
    I am no fan of this show, but just happened to be off work and in flipping channels.

    Well, as you were.

    Glorian
  8. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    You guys will come up with such ludicrous ways to entertain the beleif that Lucas is secrety trying to please the negativists (while publically denying such claims) that it almost doesn't even need a rebuttal.

    I just can't wait until the saga is finished, and the people who don't like Lucas' style finally realize that they were just lucky to have enjoyed the classic trilogy in the first place.

    This stuff just isn't for everyone. No film can be.
  9. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "I just can't wait until the saga is finished, and the people who don't like Lucas' style finally realize that they were just lucky to have enjoyed the classic trilogy in the first place."

    as far as im concerned the saga is finished. i have no desire to see episode III as its pretty clear how it will be, based on the last two films. im glad i have the OT... too bad Lucas has made any "original" versions of it unavailable. as for the PT, its a shame it never came close to its potential.
  10. Ultimate Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2000
    star 3
    "However, in that article, he gets so carried away saying they have no talent and don't know about anything etc that it is obvious that he is having a go at them in retaliation to their criticisms. Hence, he takes their criticism's to heart. He obviously is affected by the nagativity."

    If Lucas is so affected by the negativity, specifically the racism, how come he didn't change any of the "racist" characters one iota in Episode 2? How come he brought them all back? I mean if Lucas was so taken aback by the Jar Jar hate, how come he brought him back in the film when he could have easily just left him in Otoh Gunga?

    Obi Wan: Where's Jar Jar?
    Senator Amidala: Oh he stayed on Naboo to help his people. He became a great hero to the Gungans.
    Obi Wan: Good for him! Now who tried to blow you up?

    How come he wrote a giant part for Jar Jar, that like alot of other things (namely lightsaber battles and Clone Wars battles) got cut for time in the end? If he was so wary of the anti-Jar Jar people, which didn't suddenly materialize when he began writing, filming or editing Clones, how come it took him until he had a three hour cut of the movie to "listen" to the backlash? How come he didn't bow to the alleged pressure when writing the film or during filming or during the first rough cuts? How come he gave Jar Jar the pivotal role of handing power to Palpatine? What, he bowed to the pressure so badly that he gave the character and even more important role in Clones?

    Lucas sure bows to pressure in funny ways.
  11. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    as far as im concerned the saga is finished. i have no desire to see episode III as its pretty clear how it will be, based on the last two films. im glad i have the OT... too bad Lucas has made any "original" versions of it unavailable. as for the PT, its a shame it never came close to its potential.


    If I were to write a parody of a DrEvazan post, it would be exactly like that. [face_laugh]



    Rick McCallum loves you!
  12. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Ultimate,

    If Lucas is so affected by the negativity, specifically the racism, how come he didn't change any of the "racist" characters one iota in Episode 2? How come he brought them all back? I mean if Lucas was so taken aback by the Jar Jar hate, how come he brought him back in the film when he could have easily just left him in Otoh Gunga?

    He did. He cut down JJ's role and cut out his antics almost entirely. Secondly, the only Nemodian besides Nute in AOTC does NOT speak in the broken english like ALL nemodians have at this point. Watto, Nute and JJ (the three big characters the racism was aimed at) were cut back considerably.

    Go-Mer-Tonic,

    You guys will come up with such ludicrous ways to entertain the beleif that Lucas is secrety trying to please the negativists (while publically denying such claims) that it almost doesn't even need a rebuttal.

    Once again I remind you we are NOT attacking other members. You have no right to accuse a member's view as "ludicrous" simply because you disagree. Otherwise this thread turns into a fight to see how many negative things we can say about the posters here. If you can't behave Go-Mer or offer your rebuttal to the points we make then I ask you to leave or I will contact a mod. Clear?

  13. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Lucas has every right to bash the critics who bash his movie. However, in that article, he gets so carried away saying they have no talent and don't know about anything etc that it is obvious that he is having a go at them in retaliation to their criticisms. Hence, he takes their criticism's to heart.

    Hence, no such thing. He is hurt by their criticism, as anyone would be if they were falsely accused, over and over, of racism, especially by people who are just trying to get their waste-of-time "crusades" in the headlines by using his movies. But he did not change the characters who sparked the criticism, and indeed, he received the same criticism for those same characters in AOTC, to say nothing of the nonsense over Jango Fett "looking Mexican," etc.

    Edited out some remarks to DrEvazan.
  14. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    He did. He cut down JJ's role and cut out his antics almost entirely.

    Because Jar Jar had been a Representative for 10 years. Nonetheless, he still spoke lines like "Mesa so happy to see you!" and acting goofy when he greets Obi Wan. He still says stuff like "Dellow fellagates."

    I notice you ignored Ultimate's point -- why was Jar Jar in the movie at ALL if Lucas was listening to the complaints of fanboys who have nothing better to do with their time than create "I Hate Jar Jar" websites?

    Secondly, the only Nemodian besides Nute in AOTC does NOT speak in the broken english like ALL nemodians

    He does? Nute Gunray does most of the talking, anyway. Why wouldn't the other Nemoidian who you claim doesn't speak the way Nute Gunray does do most of the talking, if, as you claim, Lucas was bowing to complaints about racism?

    have at this point. Watto, Nute and JJ (the three big characters the racism was aimed at) were cut back considerably.

    Unlike in TPM, he was no longer Anakin's master. Nobody needed to buy Anakin from him. Anakin merely needed to ask him where Shmi was. So Lucas did NOT "cut down Watto's screen time" in response to complaints about racism. He didn't "cut down his screen time" at all. He had him in one scene because it was necessary for Anakin to learn where Shmi was. What other scenes with Watto should Lucas have put in there, pray tell?

    Allow me to answer your points one by one:

    Story

    What about it?

    Less Jar Jar

    Even though he still spoke the same way, acted goofy, and was pivotal in the events of the movie?

    More action

    Uh...because the Clone Wars were beginning? And anyway, people whined that there was too much action in AOTC.

    Darker/adult tone

    Which Lucas has ALWAYS planned for Episode II, even before TPM was released. You can't have Anakin begin his descent to the Dark Side without having a darker, more adult tone.

    Clone Wars

    What about them? They were supposed to begin in Episode II before TPM was even released.

    More humour

    Not really.

    Better dialogue

    Even though the dialogue in AOTC was bashed even more viciously than the dialogue in TPM? And please don't say that him getting help with AOTC proves he was caving to fanboy complaints, because he tried to get help on TPM too.
  15. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    I am not going to go into another pathetic cut and paste job with you Shelley especially due to your tone.
  16. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    I am not going to go into another pathetic cut and paste job with you Shelley especially due to your tone.

    Pathetic, huh? Interesting word from a guy who just wrote:

    Once again I remind you we are NOT attacking other members. You have no right to accuse a member's view as "ludicrous" simply because you disagree. Otherwise this thread turns into a fight to see how many negative things we can say about the posters here. If you can't behave Go-Mer or offer your rebuttal to the points we make then I ask you to leave or I will contact a mod. Clear?
  17. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    I was calling the "cut and paste" sessions we get into pathetic. It had nothing to do with your comments or you in particular.


    EDIT: But in answer to a few points. JJ was limited. To cut him out all together would have been way too obvious. That's pretty clear.

    The Nemodian did not speak in broken english and we hardly got any Nute either. Once again, Lucas couldn't exactly cut out a handful of characters he invested in all together now could he?
  18. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    EDIT: But in answer to a few points. JJ was limited.

    And how do you know he wasn't supposed to have a smaller role to begin with? Why was his role so pivotal in AOTC? Why didn't he really have a token role?

    To cut him out all together would have been way too obvious. That's pretty clear.

    How is it pretty clear?

    The Nemodian did not speak in broken english

    Neither did Nute. He spoke in an accent that some people claimed was a mockery of Asian speech, but Lucas said was a Transylvanian vampire accent.

    and we hardly got any Nute either.

    Oh, I wouldn't say "hardly any". And there was no need for him to be in the movie at all. In fact, I thought it was contrived that he was still holding a grudge against Padme, 10 years later.

    Once again, Lucas couldn't exactly cut out a handful of characters he invested in all together now could he?

    Why not? He was prepared to cut out Han Solo if Harrison Ford didn't sign on to do Episodes V and VI. So how, exactly, "couldn't" he cut out a handful of characters he invested in?
  19. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    lay off the personal attacks for ONCE.
  20. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    And on second thoughts, I might reply to the above comments as I am bored.

    And how do you know he wasn't supposed to have a smaller role to begin with? Why was his role so pivotal in AOTC? Why didn't he really have a token role?

    Because of all the JJ hype and effort to create a new digital character who was to be a Chewbacca type alien side-kick. It doesn't make sense to knock down a character which they invested so much time into. It doesn't make sense to parallel him with another character whose screen time was never altered as drastically. It is just common sense to me. If you disagree then that is fine.

    Neither did Nute. He spoke in an accent that some people claimed was a mockery of Asian speech, but Lucas said was a Transylvanian vampire accent.

    I don't have a problem with this. I never said I supported the racism claims. Although, it has been proven in studies that everyone is racist on at least a unconscious level. I don't think this is moreso with Lucas though. Nevertheless, it doesn't matter what Lucas intended here as to what people claimed was racist. Lucas probably limited the roles of aliens that caused a stir to avoid more backlash. This is common sense to me but you can disagree.

    Oh, I wouldn't say "hardly any". And there was no need for him to be in the movie at all. In fact, I thought it was contrived that he was still holding a grudge against Padme, 10 years later.

    Yes there was Shelley. You have to link movie one with movie two to show that all the villains are linked. It would be bad storytelling to write out the main villains from the first chapter like that. But this is just common sense to me as well and...well you get the point.

    Why not? He was prepared to cut out Han Solo if Harrison Ford didn't sign on to do Episodes V and VI. So how, exactly, "couldn't" he cut out a handful of characters he invested in?

    He COULD do anything he wants. But he would rather take the common sense approach and keep characters he developed (or thought he did) and invested in to tell the continuing story. If Harrison didn't want to be in the films, he would be forced to cut the character out. So you proved my point really. The fact that he kept Solo as a character shows what he would prefer to do when he has the option.
  21. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    Oh yeah, on Watto.

    Its actually fact now that he was not going to be in AOTC at all, let alone the role he eventually had in the movie. So to say his role was reduced because of external pressure is far of the mark.
  22. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    The definitive answer from Lucas is that he did not cave in to negative pressure.

    The only rebuttal offered by his critics: "He's lying. I know because I would lie if I were in his shoes."

    This seriously undermines the credibility of Lucas' critics, and until you can provide more compelling evidence than a petty assault on Lucas' character in a desperate gamble to be "right" then I'm going to trust Lucas' words on the matter.

    And this is pretty much where the debate derails because the critics have no evidence with which to prove their point or to counter Lucas' direct comments, so they drag up out of context quotes and add a healthy amount of spin and conjecture to try and make it sound like Lucas is saying what they want him to say (mind you, this ploy rarely works, if ever, but it doesn't stop them from trying with zeal). And when all else inevitably fails, they viciously attack his character. Again. And round and round we go.
  23. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    VERY interesting quotes, Dr.Evazan. VERY interesting. Lucas sinks deeper into the mire for every day.
  24. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    Lucas said on the DVD he actually didn't plan to have Watto in at all, but the story dictated that he should, so Anakin could get that information.

    So there's Watto. But only for the one scene--remember that Lucas is concerned with keeping the story moving, with nothing to drag it down.

    I was surprised to hear he was coming back--I thought there'd be no reason for him to be there. Ah well.

    I'm not even sure whose argument this fuels, but I saw Watto mentioned. Food for thought.



    Rick McCallum loves you!
  25. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    posting quotes as i find them:

    Lucas Offers New Hope with "Clones"

    by Josh Grossberg
    Apr 22, 2002, 11:00 AM PT
    The big question before the highly anticipated release next month of Star Wars: Episode II--Attack of the Clones: Does George Lucas still have the Force to make a good a movie, or is he, like Anakin, slowly descending to the Dark Side, worrying more about Yoda dolls and Jar Jar cups than, say, characters, plot and dialogue?

    Well, if you believe the early buzz--and Lucas' own secret memos--than it looks like the Jedi master is back with Attack.

    Both Newsweek and Time have stories in this week's issues touting Clones as a return to form for Lucas and the Star Wars franchise after the creative disappointment of Stars Wars: Episode I--The Phantom Menace a d v e r t i s e m e n t


    "The last movie did not live up to expectations," writes Lucas in a pitch memo to toy maker Hasbro--one of the key Star Wars merchandisers--obtained by Newsweek.

    Indeed, while The Phantom Menace film grossed a whopping $431 million domestically (the fourth highest tally of all time) and nearly $1 billion worldwide, the film disappointed critics and fans alike, who singled out the plodding, far from menacing plot (about a--yawn--trade war), clunky dialogue, nails-on-chalkboard peformances by Jake Lloyd as the young Anakin Skywalker and the appearance of the most loathed character in the Star Wars universe: Jar Jar Binks.

    In terms of merchandising, Lucas concedes to Hasbro that Menace was "overlicensed," "over-shipped" and "oversaturated." The movie was a marketing catastrophe for many licensees--including Hasbro, Kentucky Fried Chicken and Pepsi (which made 8 billion cans featuring Star Wars motifs)--who lost money and wound up with warehouses full of lame Star Wars-related junk (Jar Jar ties, anyone?).

    To avoid a disastrous repeat, the 57-year-old filmmaker says he's cutting down the licensees by one-third for Clones (from more than 80 to less than 50). More importantly for fans, the head Jedi promises Attack of the Clones, which invades theaters May 16, will have a "darker feel, closer to the original saga," with "no silly characters or kids."

    Lucas, who wrote the first prequel by himself, hired writer Jonathan Hales, who worked on Lucas' Young Indiana Jones Chronicles, to tighten things up and make the dialogue more palatable. Jar Jar has been blessedly reduced to a bit part, appearing only briefly in Attack of the Clones. And 'N Sync, who supposedly shot a cameo for a Jedi battle scene, reportedly wound up on the cutting-room floor."
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.