Lucas took our critisms of TPM to heart

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by hawk, May 19, 2002.

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  1. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    The fact that he fleshes these out as he goes along is not in dipute. The point is that he says he didn't alter Jar-Jar's role in Episode II in response to the backlash he recieved.
  2. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "I wasn't saying that Jar Jar was popular like Han and Luke. I was using Han and Luke's popularity to show that even though they were popular, Lucas still changed their characters -- because it was the natural progression of things."

    agreed. the difference with Jar Jar, however is yes, his character changed, but he was also given far less screen time, which IMO is a strange thing to do with a "popular" character.

    Lucas gave the Fetts more to do in AOTC... whether he did this because Boba is a fan favorite or not is still up for debate. i know Boba had some backstory (mandalorians etc.) but im not sure that he and his "father" were meant to have such a pivotal role in the saga as originally conceived, and my guess would be their roles were increased because of their popularity with fans (Boba anyway).
  3. -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 6
    It is my belief that Lucas had a role for Boba Fett in the PT, but expanded it more than originally intended out of the character's blatant popularity amongst the fans.
  4. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "The fact that he fleshes these out as he goes along is not in dipute. The point is that he says he didn't alter Jar-Jar's role in Episode II in response to the backlash he recieved."

    i was looking back through this thread trying to find the quote where Lucas says he didn't alter Jar-Jar's role in Episode II in response to the backlash he recieved.

    could you repost it please Gomer? Durwood?

    thanks in advance.
  5. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    I think this issue lies in the middle. I don't think George has been wading through nasty comments from fans thinking "I've got to make them happy". I DO think that after the excessive hatred of Binks and other chacaters, Lucas had to "rethink" their roles and gave JJ a more serious role and minismised characters like Nute. It was damage control. And like the member called ----, I agree he always intended Boba to have a backstory but he never intended to have such an expanded role for him.

    So, in conclusion, I would say that Lucas is influenced by fans and negative reactions. To me it is common sense. Honestly, is what I am saying that far fetched?
  6. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    Well no its not Hawk :) But as you say to you what you believe is common sense.

    But to me common sense is to believe that Lucas did what he did with regards to characters and the whole film because his story required it etc. Not because of a minority.

    Now my belief isn't so far fetched is it?

  7. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
  8. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    I have to say that that I agree, hawk.
  9. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    There is evidence that goes both ways, whether you choose to believe it or not; for example, there is the "perhaps I went to far" line from the TPM DVD.

    That's a great line, isn't it? It's from The Beginning documentary on the TPM DVD. But when you look at the context, Lucas was talking about the pacing of the film (remember, he said these infamous words immediately after viewing the first complete rough cut of TPM). What followed was a discussion between Lucas, Rick McCallun, and Ben Burtt where he--meaning Lucas--said that he likes making films that are difficult to keep up with because of their complexity, but in the case of the first cut of TPM he admits that he "may have gone too far," especially in the climax where, as Ben Burtt said, they tried to wrap up several plot threads in a couple of minutes and that it was just too hard to follow. That's where Lucas "went too far." It had nothing to do with Jar Jar, marketing, or bitter fanboys on the internet.

    More to the point, if you're so willing to cling to his "may have gone too far" comment then why are you so eager to simply discard his other statements where he flat says he didn't make a single change because of negative pressure?
  10. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    there is the "perhaps I went to far" line from the TPM DVD. It can be seen either as a comment on the marketing or it can be seen as a comment on the inclusion of Jar Jar Binks to such a high degree.

    But how can it be seen as a comment on the marketing when it was made after Lucas, et al watched a rough cut of the movie? The marketing had yet to begin, let alone become excessive. As for the inclusion of Jar Jar to such a high degree, Lucas didn't even mention Jar Jar. IIRC, he was referring to how the story threads don't tie too well together at that point.

    People keep quoting that "I may have gone too far" line to prove that Lucas realized he'd made a turkey, that Jar Jar was too much, etc. Just like with Harrison Ford's infamous "you can type this ****, George, but you sure can't say it." People keep using that quote as proof that Lucas's dialogue sucks, when in fact Ford was not saying it sucked, he was saying it was difficult to utter. He made the remark after a day spent trying to get the line "It'll take a few moments to get the coordinates from the nava computer" right. He, Carrie Fisher, and Mark Hamill all had problems saying their dialogue, but nonetheless Fisher said she thought ANH had a brilliant script.
  11. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    "Lucas took our critisms of TPM to heart"

    I've been thinking about your title and even when you claim Lucas has listened to you all regarding Episode I, you still hate Episode II even with changes you claim are for the better. How strange.
  12. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    im still looking for that quote from Lucas... i thought it was posted in this thread.

    anyone?
  13. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
  14. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    yes i thought so... i was just having trouble finding it.... could someone please repost it? ill keep looking.
  15. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
  16. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    the one where Lucas says he didn't alter Jar-Jar's role in Episode II in response to the backlash he recieved, and where his other statements where he flat says he didn't make a single change because of negative pressure.

    i'm still looking. i missed them somehow.

  17. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    "The first one had lot of setup to do and had to be the foundation for the six movies," says Ewan McGregor (Obi-Wan Kenobi) of the much-maligned Episode I ? The Phantom Menace.

    (Note they offer no proof that it was "much maligned.")

    Here's the famous Samuel L. Jackson quote:

    "Episode II returns to the original swashbuckling fairy-tale form of the first Star Wars films." Samuel L. Jackson (Jedi Master Mace Windu) adds up the difference: "Menace was a kiddie movie. This one?s not. I think the fans are more excited this time around, because everyone has heard that George heard their criticisms, took them to heart, and made something special."

    Here's Lucas's reply:

    An encouraging analysis for jilted Star Wars lovers, but if audiences think George Lucas calibrated Attack of the Clones to fix a suddenly sputtering franchise..."That's ridiculous," says Lucas, whose rebuttal starts with a check-the-scoreboard nod toward Episode I?s $431 million domestic box office gross. "I made More American Graffiti," cracks Lucas, citing the flop 1979 sequel to his Oscar-nominated 1973 smash. "I know what happens when you have a big hit and you bring out a sequel and people don't like it: They don't go! It's just the nature of the beast." Question his assumption that quantity equals quality and Lucas cites research, conducted during The Phantom Menace?s release, that found 70 to 80 percent of the audience either "liked it" or "loved it." "It was basically the media and the Internet fan base ? all late 20s, early 30s, 40s ? who didn?t like it," Lucas concludes.
  18. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Here's another article:

    Anyone who's made plans to attend "Star Wars: Episode II -- Attack of the Clones" for the sole purpose of gloating over George Lucas' cinematic supplication before fans still angry about "Episode I" might want to reserve tickets for the opera instead.

    Meeting with reporters last week on the Elysian Fields of Skywalker Ranch --

    his 2,600-acre slice of heaven just 45 minutes north of San Francisco -- Lucas was neither repentant nor particularly eager to defend "The Phantom Menace." After all, not only did the estate's Jedi-in-residence refuse to grind Jar Jar Binks into fish food, as some of his more vocal detractors have demanded, he gave the much-maligned Gungan exile a promotion.

    "The characters are only there to make the story move forward . . . their personalities revolve around the plot," the soft-spoken mogul explained. "In 'Episode I,' Jar Jar uses his ties to the Jedi to bring together two disparate societies, the Gungans and Naboo. Therefore, he served the plot."

    Although Jar Jar was mostly absent in the rush of publicity leading up to the release of "Episode II," he returns as part of the inner circle of Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. It also appears as if the bumbling bozo invested in a makeover and speech therapy.

    "At first, the fans thought C-3PO was loathsome, and when they saw the Ewoks, they said, 'How can he do this?' " Lucas continued. "The fans didn't like Jar Jar, even before the first screening of 'Phantom Menace.' They considered him to be a kids' character, and started complaining.

    "The media picked comments up from the Internet, and blew it up into a controversy."

    The remoteness of Skywalker Ranch shelters Lucas from much of the sniping and gossip that's served alongside the chopped salads at the Ivy and Spago in Los Angeles. Although the Modesto native, who turns 58 on Tuesday, admits to some monitoring of the fan sites while filming "Episode I," he says he's pretty much stopped going online and reading reviews.

    Moreover, Lucas refuses to believe that "Phantom Menace" was as widely reviled as these reporters, gathered inside the Lucasfilm soundstage here, desperately want him to admit.

    "Eighty percent of the people surveyed in the exit polls I was shown said they loved 'Episode I' and would recommend it to their friends," said Lucas. "I was also told that 60 percent of the reviews were positive. It's been the most financially successful of the films in the series, and that means people didn't stop going to see it after the opening weekend.
  19. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    thanks for those quotes Shelley. they add much light to the discussion. Lucas seems to not think much of criticism he has received. perhaps he listens more to the positive than the negative

    still looking for the ones where he flat says he didn't make a single change because of negative pressure.
  20. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    LOL DrE. I think what shelley has produced does flat out say he didnt bow to negative and minority pressure.

    And thank you Shelley for bringing those up :)
  21. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    how so? i dont see any direct flat out statement there, other than he disagrees with critics.
  22. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    There was the bit where he said he did not alter Jar-Jar's role in Episode II in response to the negative backlash.
  23. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Oh, but he did change Jar Jar's role. He gave him a promotion, gave him a position of respect. And he refused to kill Jar Jar off, as some people were demanding that he do.

    DrE, you are right, he doesn't directly say that he didn't bow to fan pressure. But I think that it's clear enough in the articles. He is described as "unrepentant" (although I don't think he has anything to be repentant about), and he says he doesn't even read the online comments, so how could he alter his movie because of them? He argues that TPM was a success, and the idea of it being a failure is something the media seized on and trumpeted. So why would he alter Episode II in order to make up for the failure of a movie that wasn't a failure? And in response to the question that he calibrated AOTC to fix "a suddenly sputtering franchise," he says, flat-out, "That's ridiculous."

    It's clear enough to me that he did not alter his plans for AOTC in response to complaints from fans. If Jar Jar's role was reduced, it was to keep the movie at a two-hour running time, not because fans hated him. The movie was supposed to have a darker tone, before TPM even came out; likewise for the Clone Wars beginning. And if Lucas really was caving to fan demands for the Clone Wars, why would he show us only one battle and have the Clone Wars barely beginning by the time the movie ends?
  24. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    I've been thinking about your title and even when you claim Lucas has listened to you all regarding Episode I, you still hate Episode II even with changes you claim are for the better. How strange.

    Actually I enjoyed AOTC much more than TPM JL.
  25. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "There was the bit where he said he did not alter Jar-Jar's role in Episode II in response to the negative backlash."

    oh i see it now, its right above the quote where he said he decided to put less Jar Jar in episode II because he realized many fans did not like Jar Jar in TPM.
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