Lucas took our critisms of TPM to heart

You dismissive little snoogans.

Lucas (nor anyone but you negative types I might add) have ever claimed he had this all written out.

I have gone out of my way to clarify that he does change his story as he commits them to film. Action sequences come and go, characters take on different traits or are eliminated here and there. But the basic OUTLINE the backstory that he wrote so he could make ANH in the first place, is still in effect in these prequels.

He has changed things as he goes along to make it BETTER. Not to placate a bunch of ungrateful "fans" who could care less what the story is he is trying to tell.

These guys don't care what Lucas wants the films to be in the end, so why should he care about what they want?

It just makes no sense. Especially with a film series that consistently tops the box office charts.

The idea that Episode II is darker and more mature because of the negative backlash leveled at TPM is as ludicrous as me saying the sun came up today because I said it would the night before.

 

All those "early drafts of ANH" are just media creations. Lucas didn't have anything to do with them.

 

LOL Binary. Sadly Go-Mer would have us believe that the SW scripts have been locked in a vault since the 70s and Lucas is slowly releasing the saga.

"Menace was a kiddie movie. [Clones] is not ... I think fans are more excited this time, because everyone has heard that [director] George [Lucas] heard their critisms, took them to heart, and made something special."


Why would Jackson say this? How could he get it that wrong? Is he a secret Lucas basher? If that is just his opinion then where and how did he form it? Who would you believe, the man who says "I make these movies for me" or the man who says "he cares about what the public wants". Until AOTC, we didn't know. But Jar Jar's absence makes the truth glaringly obvious.

P.S. Gomer, where are all those explanations for the imporatance of JJ, Midis, Virginal conceptions, blood tests that you talked about? How does JJ's buffoonery in TPM make his character more important than if he were not in the TPM at all. You cling to your misbeliefs about Lucas and the saga Gomer. I guess, at this point, it is too late for you to take 3 years of "the explanation of Midis will come in the next chapters. Patience" back. LOL. What a waste of time Go-Mer. What is the address for the that lard biscuit site you kept referring to? What a waste of time. LOL

 

I'm still wondering why there isn't an annoying as all get out character in AOTC, since Gomer seems to think they are so important to SW. Come to think of it, there isn't one in ANH either. And 3PO in ESB in nowhere near jar jar's level. Wierd.

EDIT - The idea that Episode II is darker and more mature because of the negative backlash leveled at TPM is as ludicrous as me saying the sun came up today because I said it would the night before.

I don't recall anyone ever saying that that's the reason AOTC is darker. GL himself said it would be like this about 2 and a half years ago.

 

I said darker/adult. What I meant was that there would be no JJ, two head, Boss Nass spit type "light" tone.

 

My bad Hawk. But I consider the absence of those things to push more towards the "adult" end of the argument, rather than the "dark" end, if you get my meaning.

 

Was an annoying as hell character important to ANH, ESB, or ROTJ?

Do they have anyone talking about Midichlorians?

Does anyone mention Anakin's unusual birth?

No? Well why is that?

Could it be that once it is explained in TPM it doesn't need to be brought up for every film that follows?

Is this thing even on? [tap tap tap]

Only you negative types have been pushing the idea Lucas had all of the scripts written out in a vault since '77.

I guess when you can't debate an advesary's actual arguments, it is easier to make up your own ridiculous arguments and just argue with them.

The problem with that is the other people out there who actually do read my posts know I am not saying these were all planned out in their entirety back in '77.

 

You still didn't answer the question.

And umm, midis didn't exist when ANH was made. Nor did the virgin birth.

And now that we have seen AOTC, and are free to talk about it, can you explain to me just why jar jar needed to be so annoying in TPM? It didn't set up a damn thing in AOTC.

 

Why was it necessary for TPM if it was never going to be brought up again. You have Neeson give this lecture to Anakin about Midichlorians, talk of Anakin being conceived by the Midichlorians, blood tests to test Midi counts and then they drop the Midichlorians altogether.

Then the defenses came in. "The reason Midis aren't mention in the OT will be explained in the next two films."

"Midichlorians improve our outlook"

If they improve the saga, then why are they dumped after one film?

Was the force talk dumped after ANH? Were lightsabers? Force powers? Mind tricks?

Isn't it a coincidence that the main things bashers hated were not present in the next film?

And nobody has come up with a reason why Kackson would say such lies about Lucas! Shame on him!

 

Mark my words, we have not seen the last of Jar-Jar Binks.

 

'Go-Mer-Tonic, please read:

"Menace was a kiddie movie. [Clones] is not ... I think fans are more excited this time, because everyone has heard that [director] George [Lucas] heard their critisms, took them to heart, and made something special."

Jackson wrote this. Are you saying he is lying or mistaken?'

I'm guessing since Sam Jackson doesn't have either a writting, directing or producing credit in AOTC that he might be mistaken.

And hawk, where do you get "Go-Mer would have us believe that the SW scripts have been locked in a vault since the 70s and Lucas is slowly releasing the saga." out of "I have gone out of my way to clarify that he does change his story as he commits them to film. Action sequences come and go, characters take on different traits or are eliminated here and there. But the basic OUTLINE the backstory that he wrote so he could make ANH in the first place, is still in effect in these prequels."???

Is it so hard to believe that Lucas is still following a basic rough outline that he composed back in say '76 or '75? No, I'm sure that all the names, places and exact events haven't been in Lucas' plan from the begining, but is it so hard to believe that Lucas didn't have it in the plan for a clumbsy social misfit to be the comic relief for Ep. I? Or that a Sith Lord pose as a charsimatic seperatist that threatens the Republic in order that Palpy could get his emergency powers and create his clone army? I don't think so myself.

 

So now you've seen a script of Episode 3 Gomer? Care to send it to me over PM's?

 

"I think fans are more excited this time, because everyone has heard that [director] George [Lucas] heard their critisms, took them to heart, and made something special."

You notice he says the fans are more exited because THEY have heard that Lucas took their critisisms to heart. Just going on the forums here before the film came out, that was the buzz was it not?

Personally, when it comes to Lucas' personal motivations for what he does, I would take Lucas' own word over what Sammuel Jackson has heard the fanbase speculate about any day of the week.

 

So where's that copy of the script Gome?

 

I am still working on it.

 

Yeah, Lucas doesn't listen to fans reaction...

Then why did he hire Hales? Hmm? Was that planned from the start?

If Lucas knew exactly what he was doing all along, he wouldn't need Hales at all. But he does take to heart fan reactions -- he's human just like the next guy and just as capable of misguided judgements from time to time. And I think to spend $140 million dollars of your own money and three years of your life, and NOT listen to a single reaction of the fans is absurd. Of course you listen to the audience....every filmaker does it, and I'd frankly think them insane if they didn't listen and gauge outside reactions.

And remember how GL had plans for Jar Jar to be the "Chewbacca of the PT"? He seriously wanted JJB to be a comic relief in all three films. But due to the JJB backlash of TPM, he was scaled down to a smaller role.

You can bet if JJB wasn't hated so much in TPM he would continue doing more goofy comic antics in AOTC too.

 

What about those of us who didn't want less Jar Jar? Huh?! What about us?! Do we not matter?!

 

I had to post here because this was exactly what I thought as I walked out of the theater. The best thing he did here was focus. There was a focus on three characters instead of 7 or 8. There weren't four story lines to flip between; there were two. This isn't dumbing down the story, it's telling a complete story. It was hard to get into much depth about any given sequence because we only got glimpses of it, especially in the last 15 minutes. In TPM, we had to intuit a lot about characters from just a couple of lines. There were just so many "main characters" that we didn't get to know any of them. That didn't happen in AotC. We had real main characters and real secondary characters. Thank you George!

 

According to Johnathan Hales himself, he was asked to work on Episode II long before Lucas even sat down to write Episode I. He says it happened while they were working together on the Young Indiana Jones TV series.

George wanted Frank Darabont (the guy they just announced will probably be writing the new Indiana Jones film) to help polish up TPM's script, but he couldn't do it because SW is a non guild production, and Frank took an oath to the writer's guild that he would not work on a non-guild production.

Lucas then took his TPM script to none other than Lawrence Kasdan, the man who helped Lucas polish up ESB and ROTJ. He told Lucas not to change a thing. In a public statement, he went on to say that he felt these prequels should be Lucas' unfiltered vision.

There is a focus in Episode II on the characters, because that is how these trilogies work. The first episode simply shows you the characters, where they came from, and the state of the galaxy they are living in. It wasn't until ESB that Lucas really started exploring the deeper aspects of Luke Leia and Han. Now it is the same with Episode II.

Lucas used to take negative reactions to heart, back before he realized he could never avoid it if he tried. There will always be some people out there who don't like what he is doing. Lucas can't cater to those people without upsetting other people. Since everyone on the planet has their own unique idea of what the prequels should be, there is simply no way to please everyone.

Lucas is just glad that enough people like what he is doing that he can make the next film in the series. He might have taken more critism to heart if any single one of these films didn't do very very well at the box office.

 

I have one big question for TPM lovers: If TPM was such a "great set-up" for the other two prequels and the rest of the saga then where's the midichlorians? Where's the revelations of Qui-Gon's importance? Where are all the damn things you TPM lovers have said will "all be explained in the next one"? WHERE'S THE ANSWERS?

In TPM, of course.

If there's one flaw in AOTC, it's that it was dumbed down in a way that TPM wasn't. If you wanted to understand the living/unifying Force, midichlorians, etc. etc. you had to think about it. What questions does AOTC leave you to work out? Sadly, it seems after 2 viewings very few...


DarthTorgo

I take it you missed Qui Gon's "appearance" in Clones, then?

Finally, I was amazed by all the IMPORTANT stuff that happened around the time of Episode I that we didn't get to see, or weren't even hinted at. Things like a certain Jedi leaving the order.

I heard that happened as a result of Qui Gon getting sent to his death...

Things like some mysterious Jedi Master ordering a batch of clones.

I thought the point that no-one knew it was happening was important...

Things like said mysterious Jedi Master "dying" in battle. I'm willing to bet that that mysterious Jedi Master was actually Sidious in disguise, but even so, he should have hinted that he had "something else up his sleeve" to Maul.

If Obi Wan, Yoda and Mace Windu all knew "Sifo-Dyas" then why didn't they spot that he looked remarkably like Palpatine?

Why would Sidious tell Maul that he was going to get a new apprentice?

This reminds me of the "Gabbo" episode of the Simpsons, with all the fans looking at AOTC with their head to one side etc...

IF Episode I was truly the good introduction that you say it was, it would at least HINT that some of those important plot points were going on.

Such as the Trade Federation rebelling against the Republic as one of the central stories of the film?

>>>>I mean, for all this talk that Lucas is making these films "for himself" he still charges you money to see it, doesn't he?

He didn't charge me... Not the first time anyway.


As for Jar Jar- if Lucas was so bothered by the reaction, why is he in Clones at all?

What? You mean all those posts and web sites dedicated to explaining how the midichlorians were genius and improved the force and its mysticism were a waste of time?

Evidently so- despite TPM's lack of evidence to support it, everyone still thinks they're the Force/the sole connection to the Force/indicators of a Jedi's power/indicators of how much a Jedi uses the Force/cloning ingredients.*

* = Delete as appropriate.


And yes, Lucas constantly claims to have written every script in 1974. Even when he said he was writing the Episode 2 script throughout 1999-2000, he didn't really mean it...
#sigh#

Q:So much of the star wars story is 30 years old from your first drafts. How much room do you allow yourself to develop new material, and how much do you want to stick to your original ideas?
A: For the basic story, I pretty much stick to my original ideas. But the story was very thin. It was basically just the plot. How it happens, the scenes, and all of the ramifications go into the script after you come up with the outline. So there's a lot of room to think. Lots of changes, although the essence stays the same. And I've kept the style of all the movies the same so that it works as one piece.
- Extract from Star Wars insider #52

Back when I was writing Star Wars in 1974, I didn't really flesh the storyline of the first three episodes. I had a rough idea of what happened and who the major character were, but I didn't include a scene-by-scene scenario of what happened in my treatment. That is what made writing the script in 1995 and 1996 more difficult because I had to go back to my sparse treatment of the prequel and greatly flesh it out. Some old ideas that really didn't work anymore were thrown out. And I added

 

A quote from a man who worked with Lucas on TPM and AOTC. Do you want DNA?

A quote from a man who acted in TPM and AOTC. He did not write the script or story, nor was he involved with it.

Yeah, just like when in TESB they stopped talking about the force because it already got a mention in ANH. Wait a minute...

What? I don't get what you are saying. Alderaan was never mentioned again in ESB or ROTJ. Nor was the Death Star battle. Does that mean anything other than, they served their purpose as plot points, there's no need to expand further on them?

Cool, you agree that Lucas does take backlash to heart then and altered AOTC in response to it.

If you bothered to read one of my earlier posts you would see that I did say that he probably reduced Jar Jar's role as much as he did to avoid backlash, although he already planned to reduce Jar Jar's role anyway.

That is what you are saying here right? That you agree?

No, I am saying that I think he reduced Jar Jar's role as much as he did because of the hyper-exaggerated backlash, which overpowered the actual movie at times.

Or are you going to twist your point around now so that it no longer looks like you just gave in?

I didn't give in, and I made the point about Jar Jar earlier in this thread.

I'm ready for the twist. What will it be? "hawk, I'm just saying that Lucas doesn't take things to heart or change his plan but he would take a few tiny considerations into possibility"?

What does it matter? That's what you'll see, regardless of what I actually say.

Just admit it, Lucas changed AOTC to please the likes of me and my basher buddies here. I'm lucky to be on the side that Lucas takes into consideration.

If that makes you feel better and more important, go ahead and keep feeling that way.

What? You mean all those posts and web sites dedicated to explaining how the midichlorians were genius and improved the force and its mysticism were a waste of time?

What? I'm not following you. What do websites have to do with midichlorians being mentioned in the movies?

Weren't the Midis supposed to make sense after we saw the next two films? One more to go! Ha ha.

The midichlorians made sense in the first movie. Qui Gon used the midichlorians to identify Anakin and to deduce that he was the Chosen One. He then explained them to Anakin. Is there a need to refer to them in AOTC? It's already been established that Anakin is the chosen one and he has a high midichlorian count.

I do recall many defending them with the "oh, you'll see the importance of the Midichlorians in the next two episodes". Once again, one more to go! he ha ha!

Um...so what?

Discovering your place in the forum is no longer serves a purpose since Lucas decided to listen to the bashers, hey Shelly?

Shelley. And you have offered no proof that Lucas listened to the bashers, other than your own wishful thinking.

I think you and Go-Mer were seceretly hoping we had another TPM on our hands

I like TPM better than AOTC, so in some ways, I was hoping we did.

so that you could claim that you were right about the direction of the saga and look down on all those fans who didn't "get it".

Really? Or is that what you would like to think?

Face it, the gusher stance that "all will be explained" is totally blown out of the water. Lucas listened to the negativity and took it to heart and tried to make something "special" for us.

No he didn't. Reducing Jar Jar's role to avoid backlash is not the same thing as listening to a bunch of whiny crybabies with nothing better to do than sit around complaining about a movie three years after its release. When asked if he pays attention to the fans' reviews on the Internet, Lucas said, "No, I have a life." Lucas is smart enough to know that no matter what he does, he'll be ripped a new lower body orifice by some group or other.

But don't take it to heart Shelly, you can still watch AOTC. Just don't forget t

 

"Mark my words, we have not seen the last of Jar-Jar Binks."



And in the time of greatest despair, there shall arise a clumsy gungan, and he shall be know as the the idiot of idiots.

You know, Jar Jar actually had a larger role in the overall Star Wars story in his three scenes in Clones than his hour or more in TPM. And that's fine. The problem with alot of his stuff, especially at the end, is it didn't serve the plot, it WAS the plot.

Okay enough.

 

Reducing Jar Jar's role to avoid backlash is not the same thing as listening to a bunch of whiny crybabies with nothing better to do than sit around complaining about a movie three years after its release.

Resorting to name calling now, huh Shelly? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Still, what's worse, voicing your criticisms of a movie (you know, the right that since we payed money to see the flick, we are allowed to examine and critique as we see fit), or bitching and moaning about those people who voice their criticisms of a movie?

If we are sad to still be criticizing a movie 3 years later, how sad are you to still be criticizing us, when you could just as easily move on and "get a life"?

 

The only criticisms I think Lucas took to heart was that there wasn't enough clever humour or pulse pounding action in TPM (aside from the final duel). That was more than rectified in AOTC. Jar Jar's role was as large as it needed to be, yet still some critics are saying Lucas is sticking his middle finger up by bringing the Gungan back at all, so he doesn't care about trying to please everyone.
As much as AOTC is an improved film, I still agree with Go-Mer. The ultimate story arc remains the same. Only the little details are changed.

 

Still, what's worse, voicing your criticisms of a movie (you know, the right that since we payed money to see the flick, we are allowed to examine and critique as we see fit),

For three years?

If we are sad to still be criticizing a movie 3 years later, how sad are you to still be criticizing us,

Still be criticizing you? I haven't been on these boards anywhere near three years. More like 9 months.