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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lucas took our critisms of TPM to heart

Discussion in 'Archive: The Phantom Menace' started by hawk, May 19, 2002.

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  1. baggles

    baggles Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 1999
    Umm...You have to be kidding about the Obi Wan bit...right???

    And in case you missed it the last 1,000 times :
    Jonathan Hales was being mentioned as a prequel writer since 1995 (Spring 1995 issue of SW insider was the first). Hales was later confirmed in spy reports in Fall 1998.

     
  2. DarthTorgo

    DarthTorgo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2002
    In the latest issue of the Insider, Lucas pretty much admits that he would not have put Boba Fett in there were he not so popular.

    (Runs as fast as Torgo can run to get his copy of the insider.)

    (Torgo's Theme music plays.)

    Here's the quote:

    If Boba fett hadn't become so popular following Empire and Jedi, would we still be finding out in Episode II that he plays such a key role in the creation of the Empire?

    "Probably not," Lucas said. "He is a background character, but I needed a device, a bounty hunter to do things. That particular bounty hunter had become a rather oioular character, and even though people were writing all kinds of things about where he came from, in my mind he was always connected to the stromtroopers. I realizsed I could use Jango Fett as the bounty hunter, and he would be Boba's father, and then it all fell into place. But even if he wasn't a popular character, it probably would have fallen intro place. .... Some of it was written back then, mainly the main characters. But all the secondary characters, like Boba fett, were added later."


    So all this stuff about Lucas never basing ANYTHING on the opinions of the fans is completley bull, because sometimes he does, like with Jango and Boba.
     
  3. Shelley

    Shelley Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2001
    I didn't get the quote from "Entertainment Weekly". I don't even know what that is - a magazine, show? I got it in "Who Weekly" down in Australia baggles and there was no such quote.

    That quote appeared in a U.S. magazine called "Entertainment Weekly."

    It is good to see at least one gusher seeing the truth. But we all knew GMT and Shelley would viciously defend Lucas to the grave. I wonder if they think he is capable of anything not to their liking??

    When all else fails, accuse people of mindless devotion to Lucas. hawk, get some new material, please. It is obvious to anyone who's "bothered to read" either my or GMT's posts that we are not mindlessly devoted to Lucas.
     
  4. Shelley

    Shelley Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2001
    Lucas said that even if Boba Fett hadn't been popular, it still may have fallen into place.

    But because Boba Fett was popular, it made him more recognizable. Lucas likes to tie everything in together. He could've invented an entirely new character, but it wouldn't have had the same resonance.
     
  5. Padme Bra

    Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 1999
    "Bad dialogue critisisms? He responded by getting Hales. "

    It's a more serious film with a romance. The dialogue had to be better. Didn't have anything to do with the fans.

    "Hatred of Jar Jar? Reduced JJ role. "

    These stories are all already outlined. Where would you put Jar Jar outside of Coruscant?

    "Not enough Obi-Wan? Plenty of Obi-Wan. "

    Lucas said when TPM came out that Obi Wan would be an emerging character.

    AOTC just happens to be the movie that fans wanted more than TPM was, as Lucas predicted when TPM came out. That does not mean that fans had any input in the creative process.

    But believe what you will. It can't be proven either way.
     
  6. DarthTorgo

    DarthTorgo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2002
    <<"Hatred of Jar Jar? Reduced JJ role. "

    These stories are all already outlined. Where would you put Jar Jar outside of Coruscant?

    >>

    I don't know. It would make just as much sense for him to accompany the Jedi into Tattooine on their dangerous and highly important mission. If that's OK, I'm sure there would be nothing wrong with having him follow everyone around throughout all of AOTC, just the way he did for TPM.


    And no, these stories are not "all outlined".

    I mean, come on. When writing TPM, Lucas was like "All I need is an idea!" That doesn't sound like the words of someone who has everything all planned out. And you know who was originally supposed to have gone into Tattooine and discovered Anakin? That's right, Obi-Wan. I mean, if he can change stuff that he had outlined for an important character like Obi-Wan (though he should not have, and after seeing AOTC, I am more convinced of this then ever.), he could do something similar with Jar-Jar .
     
  7. hawk

    hawk Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 3, 2000
    "That quote appeared in a U.S. magazine called "Entertainment Weekly."


    Give me a break!!!

    I READ IT IN WHO WEEKLY. I have the magazine right in front of me NOW! Isn't it possible that the quote appeared in more than one magazine? What is wrong with you people?

    And baggles, how about an apology for accusing me of "conveniently" leaving out a quote that I never saw? Just another example of how, even when you prove your point, someone just ignores what you have written.

    Yes, I do believe Obi-Wan's role would not have been as large if Ewan was caned as much as JJ.

    Why do you people ignore the evidence? You state that Lucas doesn't change things for fans but DarthTorgo JUST posted evidence that is the contrary! DIDN'T you read that post? Lucas only put Jango Fett and Boba in the film because they were popular. They were popular because of the fans, hence LUCAS CHANGED his vision for the fans. Yes, he said a bounty hunter would have appeared in the film anyway but JANGO AND BOBA WOULD NOT have appeared in the film if it wasn't for FANS! Why do people avoid the facts?

    And convince me otherwise that JJ's dimished role had nothing to do with backlash. Shelley has stated the role was dimisished because of backlas (although I still can't figure out why he/she denies it considering she actually wrote it a few times??), why can't others?

    No offence, but you guys are hanging on to the weirdest misbeliefs about George Lucas and the saga. It is illogical, totally ILLOGICAL to think he doesn't change his films due to backlash.
     
  8. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    "Where would you put Jar Jar outside of Coruscant?"

    Hmm...

    MACE
    Travel as refugees. And take Jar Jar with you. He'll help you blend in.

    (For the remainder of the love story, Jar Jar constantly flails and screams in the background, knocking things over, lashing out with his tongue, and consoling a dejected Anakin with such pearls of wisdom as "Yousa baka da bombad farfegnugen, Ani!" All ends well when the Gungan is trampled by a shaak.)

    :p
     
  9. EnforcerSG

    EnforcerSG Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2001
    Go mer, you seem to believe that GL is so honest and nobel. It would be nice if you are right, but i dont know one way or another.

    Look, one way or another, many bashers got what they wanted. Less Jar JAr, or any compleat #$% of a character who could have taken his place (are all you gushers saying that Lucas cant write in something for JJ or JJ-subsitute if he wanted to? Is he that poor of a writter?). The mids could have been written in or mentioned easly enough. Maybe OB1 could have said that since Ani knowing his high mid count is helping make him aarogant. It would not have been hard to put it in if Lucas wanted to. So, why didnt he put them in?

    He may simply have never thought of it, just let them go to the wayside. Or he thought they would be a distraction or wasted efort. Or it could be that he knew fans would flay him again if he mentioned it. I tend to think the first two options more than the third, or some other, but hey, we dont know for sure.

    I agree that thing like Ani being older and the film being darker were planed from near the begining. But things like Jar Jar may not have been, and given how he very well could play a bigger roll, or could have if Lucas rewrote the story, probably were not planed out as such.

    I tend to think that Lucas maybe heard some of the louder complantes, like JJ and mids, and maybe saw that we were right. And a darker story probable helped him deside.

    HAHA, yeah, it was the bad dialoge that got Hales. So if we didnt complain, we would still ahve Loyd hitting on the queen/senator. Yeah, that would have gone well...
     
  10. hawk

    hawk Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 3, 2000
    Exactly, Jar Jar's pressence in AOTC would be no less out of place than he was in TPM.

    Once again, thanks all the bashers for securing Jar Jar place in diminished role.
     
  11. EnforcerSG

    EnforcerSG Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2001
    Go mer, you seem to believe that GL is so honest and nobel. It would be nice if you are right, but i dont know one way or another.

    Look, one way or another, many bashers got what they wanted. Less Jar JAr, or any compleat #$% of a character who could have taken his place (are all you gushers saying that Lucas cant write in something for JJ or JJ-subsitute if he wanted to? Is he that poor of a writter?). The mids could have been written in or mentioned easly enough. Maybe OB1 could have said that since Ani knowing his high mid count is helping make him aarogant. It would not have been hard to put it in if Lucas wanted to. So, why didnt he put them in?

    He may simply have never thought of it, just let them go to the wayside. Or he thought they would be a distraction or wasted efort. Or it could be that he knew fans would flay him again if he mentioned it. I tend to think the first two options more than the third, or some other, but hey, we dont know for sure.

    I agree that thing like Ani being older and the film being darker were planed from near the begining. But things like Jar Jar may not have been, and given how he very well could play a bigger roll, or could have if Lucas rewrote the story, probably were not planed out as such.

    I tend to think that Lucas maybe heard some of the louder complantes, like JJ and mids, and maybe saw that we were right. And a darker story probable helped him deside.

    HAHA, yeah, it was the bad dialoge that got Hales. So if we didnt complain, we would still ahve Loyd hitting on the queen/senator. Yeah, that would have gone well...
     
  12. Shelley

    Shelley Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2001
    Give me a break!!!

    I READ IT IN WHO WEEKLY. I have the magazine right in front of me NOW! Isn't it possible that the quote appeared in more than one magazine? What is wrong with you people?


    Calm down, hawk. No one is denying where you read it. They're just saying that they saw it in a different magazine.

    What is at issue here is your interpretation of the comment.

    I do believe Obi-Wan's role would not have been as large if Ewan was caned as much as JJ.

    You're joking, right? Obi Wan plays a central--indeed, crucial--role in the saga.

    do you people ignore the evidence? You state that Lucas doesn't change things for fans but DarthTorgo JUST posted evidence that is the contrary! DIDN'T you read that post? Lucas only put Jango Fett and Boba in the film because they were popular.

    Yes, I did read that post. You're misquoting him, as you misquoted Samuel L. Jackson.

    were popular because of the fans, hence LUCAS CHANGED his vision for the fans. Yes, he said a bounty hunter would have appeared in the film anyway but JANGO AND BOBA WOULD NOT have appeared in the film if it wasn't for FANS! Why do people avoid the facts?

    He said he always imagined Boba Fett having a connection to the stormtroopers.

    And convince me otherwise that JJ's dimished role had nothing to do with backlash. Shelley has stated the role was dimisished because of backlas (although I still can't figure out why he/she denies it considering she actually wrote it a few times??), why can't others?

    hawk, I never denied saying that. (I'm a she.) You took what I said and ran with it as "proof" that I was agreeing with you. I wasn't.
     
  13. DarthTorgo

    DarthTorgo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2002
    <<Where would you put Jar Jar outside of Coruscant?"

    Hmm...

    MACE
    Travel as refugees. And take Jar Jar with you. He'll help you blend in.

    (For the remainder of the love story, Jar Jar constantly flails and screams in the background, knocking things over, lashing out with his tongue, and consoling a dejected Anakin with such pearls of wisdom as "Yousa baka da bombad farfegnugen, Ani!" All ends well when the Gungan is trampled by a shaak.)
    >>

    Oh god. That could very easily have happened. After all, the same thing "worked" for JAr-Jar going into Tattooine, didn't it? I'm now going to wake up in a cold sweat now everynight thinking how EASILY the could have happened. How EASY it would be for GL to just write that one line of dialogue, and PRESTO, Jar-JAr would be in the movie and most of the people who didn't mind him the first time still would insist that he wouldn't be out of place just because George Lucas gave that one line, even though it doesn't make sense. How on earth could Jar-Jar help ANYONE blend in? Please. Traveling with Jar-Jar makes you stick out like a sore thumb. Not a good move for someone who wants to be inconspicuous.

     
  14. hawk

    hawk Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 3, 2000
    "When all else fails, accuse people of mindless devotion to Lucas. hawk, get some new material, please. It is obvious to anyone who's "bothered to read" either my or GMT's posts that we are not mindlessly devoted to Lucas."

    Ok, but I have yet to see any evidence towards the contrary. GMT's pet peeve with TPM was that the underwater scene was pointless and that Jar Jar's role was annoying and that the acting was sub-par. Wait a minute, they are mine...Oh, that's right, GMT thought that Maul's glued horns looked fake. Can't he see that Lucas was using glued horns to demonstrate Maul's frailty as a Jedi? I mean it's obvious. Duh! I guess SW isn't for GMT because he didn't like something.

    As for you Shelley, I am not sure of your critisisms, if you have any. I don't think we have conversed very often and that you are accusing me of what other have done to you in the past, generalising about myself. But from talking with you, you have yet to agree with me on anything, even the posistive stuff I write. Same goes for a lot of you. Where are you guys when I praise AOTC? Where were you when I praised TPM's opening? I get the feeling you guys follow me around, waiting for me to say something negative, then you pounce. In fact, I have yet to see you write anything without a chip on your shoulder Shelley or in cut and paste "let's forget the whole meaning of the WHLE post" form. But I still love you guys :)
     
  15. Shelley

    Shelley Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2001
    Jeez, does it really matter one way or another? People are whining and moaning about AOTC. Much like they're still whining and moaning about TPM three years later.

    People said that AOTC better be good or they were leaving for LOTR or The Matrix...and now they're saying they think AOTC sucks, Episode III better be good or they'll leave for LOTR or The Matrix.

    The same people who whined about there being too much talk and not enough action in TPM are now whining about there being too much action and not enough talk in AOTC.

    In other words, Lucas could never do anything that satisfied the "fans" and shut them the hell up.
     
  16. hawk

    hawk Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 3, 2000
    "If Boba fett hadn't become so popular following Empire and Jedi, would we still be finding out in Episode II that he plays such a key role in the creation of the Empire?

    "Probably not," Lucas said."

    Shelley, why don't you clarify for me then. How is this comment NOT saying Lucas is changing an aspect of SW for the fans? Instead of saying I am jumping to conclusions, please specify clearly what this argument and yours DON'T have to do with mind. Please avoid all your long, fancy sentences and write an argument: premise, premise...conclusion. You seem to find that impossible.
     
  17. Shelley

    Shelley Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2001
    As for you Shelley, I am not sure of your critisisms, if you have any.

    I do. And I've stated them, many times.

    I don't think we have conversed very often and that you are accusing me of what other have done to you in the past, generalising about myself. But from talking with you, you have yet to agree with me on anything, even the posistive stuff I write.

    hawk, what you seem to fail to grasp is that there's a world of difference between defending something against attacks and thinking that it is perfect.

    Same goes for a lot of you. Where are you guys when I praise AOTC?

    The subject at hand here is not AOTC, it is TPM.

    You liked AOTC. That's great. I liked it too. I haven't seen any of your posts on the AOTC forum, though.

    Where were you when I praised TPM's opening? I get the feeling you guys follow me around, waiting for me to say something negative, then you pounce.

    Don't flatter yourself, hawk. I don't follow you around. It's just that you present so many opportunities for rebuttal that I happen to see.

    In fact, I have yet to see you write anything without a chip on your shoulder Shelley

    Hmm. Who's following who around?

    or in cut and paste "let's forget the whole meaning of the WHLE post

    What?
     
  18. DarthTorgo

    DarthTorgo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2002
    Uhh, I don't know where you've been, but many of the frequent Episode I Bashers on THIS board loved AOTC: CeeJay, Hawk, Agent Coop, myself (although it could have been better, and it's still not quite as good as the OT.), I'm sure there are others. Maybe you should try and stop looking at Bashers as a group and start looking at them as individuals.


    Or does it not matter that they liked AOTC? As long as you don't love ALL of the Star Wars films then you aren't a true fan? Is that it?
     
  19. Shelley

    Shelley Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2001
    How about I read the rest of the quote, hawk? For someone who claims to be such a stickler for "reading the whole quote," you overlooked this part:

    "But even if he wasn't a popular character, it probably would have fallen into place."
     
  20. hawk

    hawk Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 3, 2000
    People are not whining and moaning about anything Shelley. You are confusing decent discussions with people who exclaim in a thread "Jar Jar Sucks. I wish he was dead". You and Go-Mer spend so much time accusing us of being whiney, petty, malcontents, you avoid anything positive we have to say. True Jedi and I were bashers of TPM, but we both loved AOTC. Doesn't that blow the theory that bashers would never be satisfied?

    I think, over time, I have proven myself to be objective. Yes, I loved AOTC but I am also not blind as to the bad editing of scenes or its overlength. At least I can show I am objective.
     
  21. Shelley

    Shelley Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2001
    I tend to think that Lucas maybe heard some of the louder complantes, like JJ and mids, and maybe saw that we were right. And a darker story probable helped him deside.

    I tend to think that Lucas heard the louder complaints, didn't think they were right, but figured it wouldn't do any good to give the whining crybabies more stuff to complain about.

    No matter. They found stuff to complain about anyway, and the press is bashing AOTC even more viciously than it bashed TPM. Only this time they don't have Jar Jar to kick around, so they had to focus on other stuff, like the "racism" crap that was taken so seriously when it was directed at TPM.

    HAHA, yeah, it was the bad dialoge that got Hales.

    OK, where's hawk's comments about not reading posts thoroughly?

    It has been posted countless times, including several times on this very thread, that Hales was intended to help Lucas with the prequels as far back as 1995.

    So if we didnt complain, we would still ahve Loyd hitting on the queen/senator. Yeah, that would have gone well...

    What? You aren't making any sense.
     
  22. hawk

    hawk Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 3, 2000
    "But even if he wasn't a popular character, it probably would have fallen into place."

    Oh good GOd! Of course it would have fallen into place. The films were going to be made regardless of cause and effect. I ALREADY SAID THAT LUCAS DID PLAN FOR A BOUNTY HUNTER. But he changed that bounty hunter to Jango Fett for the fans. That is a fact. He said it.

    You are confusing particular points that Lucas has made with his GENERAL approach to the films. Again, you have failed to see the logic.

    "If Boba fett hadn't become so popular following Empire and Jedi, would we still be finding out in Episode II that he plays such a key role in the creation of the Empire?

    "Probably not," Lucas said."

    Look at that quote again. "Probably not". He changed for the fans on that one point right there. You see it? I don't think you can. He changed who that character would be due to popularity. Now if he changes a character due to popularity, he would also change characters due to unpopulalrity.
     
  23. Shelley

    Shelley Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2001
    People are not whining and moaning about anything Shelley.

    Oh no? Then what's with all the whining and moaning in the AOTC forum?
     
  24. hawk

    hawk Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 3, 2000
    Forget it. I'm sick of this nonsense. Please reply when you can learn to be objective.
     
  25. Shelley

    Shelley Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2001
    All right, fine, hawk, you win. Lucas did everything because he listened to bashers. He made Anakin older and the movie darker because of the nonstop bitching, whining, and moaning of people such as yourself for three years. He limited Jar Jar's role because everyone hated him, or at least, the people that hated him were the noisiest.

    Happy now?

    And would it kill you to spend your time on a movie you like rather than a movie you hated?
     
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