PT Lucas's PT Notes

mikeximus, yeah James Luceno and other EU writers helped cement the idea that Sifo-Dyas actually ordered the clones and then Dooku killed him.

In AOTC, as you point out, you can draw a direct line of Dooku=Tyranus=Jango as clone template=Dooku posed as Sifo and ordered clones, etc.

Unfortunately, the TCW episode was much ado about nothing. It went around and around but in the end really didn't answer anything explicitly beyond what was already implied in AOTC.

 

However, don't forget that prior to Disney's "New" Canon, TCW was not at the same level of canon as the movies. This was because that even though Lucas was still involved in TCW, there was a lot of leeway given to Filoni and the writers of TCW in how they created the stories. Whether or not Lucas accepted anything that contradicted his original thoughts (onscreen or not), or stories that he held in his head while making the PT's seems to be directly tied to how passionate he was about that specific story or thought.

So what we have is a TCW that has some elements of Lucas's stories that came directly from Lucas, but, injected with the interpretations of Filoni and other writers, that were given freedom to flesh out the stories, and when they had questions they needed to turn to the likes of Pablo Hidalgo and others to make sure there weren't direct contradictions with what is seen on-screen. From various quotes by Filoni, it seems Lucas wasn't available to answer every single question they had about the story. As long as there weren't any direct contradictions, they were good to go with their own interpretations.

 

To Licensing. Not George.

I don't think that was the reason. Unfortunately, the EU had some sort of weight or relevancy and there was a constant effort by Licensing on trying to make everything mesh even when George was giving his canonical version of the story (which, in my opinion, should discard everything else). Take Grievous' origins, where it was established that he chose to modify himself instead of becoming a cyborg by accident. Or the Mandalorians, where it was established that they were an organized militia instead of Boba Fett copy-cats. And there were many more.

 

I think Ultimate Star Wars might have said it - I know that the Databank does:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/sifo-dyas


SIFO-DYAS

A member of the Jedi Council before the blockade of Naboo, Sifo-Dyas believed the galaxy would soon be plunged into war, and agitated for the Republic to create an army for its defense. After the other Jedi rejected his ideas and removed him from the council, he secretly contacted the Kaminoans and commissioned them to create a clone army, which he led the Kaminoans to believe was for the Republic. In doing so, Sifo-Dyas became an unwitting pawn of the Sith, who took over the project and hired the Pyke Syndicate to murder Sifo-Dyas on Oba Diah’s moon. A decade after Sifo-Dyas’ death, Obi-Wan Kenobi discovered the army he had commissioned, now ready for duty. The Jedi took control of this army on Supreme Chancellor Palpatine’s orders, setting the Clone Wars in motion.

 

IIRC, in the last episode, Dooku claims to have actually collaborated with Sifo-Dyas. Of course, Obi-Wan immediately accuses him of lying.

I honestly think George was being a bit mischievous with that Sifo-Dyas arc. It feels like it's answering a bunch of questions while you're watching it, but then when it's all over, you realize you're left with just as many questions as when you started. Just like the Jedi are at the end of the episode.

 

However, that makes no sense. Why would LFL hamstring itself by knocking the TCW down a level in the Star Wars Canon if Lucas himself didn't feel that way? LFL (and all it's branches) was about making money, so to not take advantage of a key and obvious marketing strategy, one that they could say that Lucas himself holds TCW up to the same level of canon as his movies makes no sense from a money making standpoint.

Unless you have a quote from Lucas himself saying otherwise, I have to believe that the reason that LFL, on it's own, knocked the TCW down the canon chain was because the stories were influenced not just by Lucas himself, but, by the many other an numerous writers and producers of the show.

Just think about it, if (hypothetically, and before the Disney sale) Lucas wanted to make a movie about the Clone Wars called Episode 2.5, do you really think he would restrain himself from doing what he wanted because Filoni decided to so something in TCW and Lucas gave him the creative freedom to do it? I think not.

Thus why I believe LFL itself put TCW under a different level of Canon than the movies. There is no denying Lucas's influences, but, at the same time there is no denying others influences in the story as well.

It's exactly why... TCW had it's own level of Canon, which was just below the Movies, but, higher than the EU. Lucas gave Filoni and the writers creative freedom to do some things the way they wanted. I have said it before, it seems Lucas was not as involved with TCW as some want to think he was. I am not trying to trivialize his influence to the show, however, there is more than enough quotes and evidence out there that shows Lucas was not sitting in on every story meeting. Here's a video where we have Filoni say that Lucas wanted to lock down the story surrounding Sifo-Dyas (which they don't do), however, Filoni says that when they sit down to figure out the story (on a white board) they have a serious problem with the timeline and he has to call in Hidalgo and others to figure it out:

http://www.starwars.com/video/the-lost-missions-q-and-a-sifo-dyas-and-the-sith

If Lucas was there in those meetings, or if the story came directly from Lucas there is no need to call in others to figure out the timeline and how the story will progress. They either ask Lucas, or he tells them outright!

Another quote from Filoni:

The foundation of it all definitely was George Lucas and his belief in us as a group, and his willingness to teach us and guide us and let us make Star Wars,with him and then for him in the later years of Clone Wars.


Again, there is no denying Lucas's influence in the stories, but, I just don't believe the stories are completely reflective of the stories he played out in his head when he was writing or making the movies. He allowed the people who made TCW to have a certain degree of artistic license, he had too, because he wasn't writing them himself, and he certainly wasn't sitting over them at every turn correcting them. They had to figure out some things for themselves.

 

Because everything had levels. And in case of a contradiction, if it ever happened, the movies trumped all.

But he did say something along those lines. I'll have to search the interview, but he said it. And marketing did use Lucas' name to promote the series, the canon hierarchy was internal though, so it had no relevance on the outside world.

I think you're taking things too literal. If Lucas had said what happened with Sifo-Dyas, a timeline would have to be established in order to prevent a contradiction of events, but that has nothing to do with the story itself. Besides, as seen in BTS featurettes (specially the one from Season 6), Lucas is involved in almost every step of the way. Story development, story process, script, dialogue, pre-viz, final animation.

Of course there is. Some things are not defined in those mettings. Imagine George said to you: Sifo-Dyas had a vision of the war and told the Jedi Council that the Republic would need an army. He was then kicked out of the Council. During a mission for the Chancellor, his ship was shot down under Tyranus orders. Tyranus took his identity and requested the creation of an army in secret. Tyranus deleted Kamino from the archives and left the Jedi.

Wouldn't you, later on, have to figure out the timeline and prevent any possible contradictions of events? It's obvious that George wasn't there everyday to be asked such "small" questions, and if what they ended up establishing was not fine with George, he would say it in the next meeting or whenever they got his approval. But it was their job to do so.

Of course not, he developed them for the show. But 95% of what the show did came and was approved by George. This never happened (and now never will) with any other project.

 

About the Sifo-Dyas thing.

Yes someone watching just AotC could make the logical deduction that Sifo-Dyas had nothing to do with this and Dooku posed as him, hired Jango and deleted the Kamino file. This is the most reasonable conclusion from the available info in the film.

But my problem, one that I immediately react to the first time I saw the film, the Jedi know enough to come to this conclusion themselves.
Based on the film, at the end the Jedi knows the following.
A clone army was ordered about ten years ago, around the time when the Sith made their presence known, the Naboo crisis and the election of a new chancellor.
This army is for the republic and apparently ordered at the request of the senate and by a Jedi master named Sifo-Dyas.
The first is not true and if Obi-Wan is correct, Sifo.Dyas didn't place the order.
So an illegal army ordered under a false name.
Plus they know that the template for this army has never heard of Sifo-Dyas, he was hired by someone else. Plus he works for Dooku and is involved in a plot to assassinate one of the most outspoken opponents to the army bill. Which has direct effects on the clone army as that can never be used as long as the army bill or something like it is not passed.
And said Dooku is an ex Jedi, so he could have deleted the Kamino file, he would know Sifo-Dyas name so he could have posed as him. Plus he has now turned to the dark side.

So the Jedi should at the very least be aware that Dooku could have posed as Sifo-Dyas and ordered this army.
If so, what does this mean? The same Dooku is behind the spes and their big army and now two armies that he had a hand in, now fight each other. So the war is a sham, staged by someone.
But this is something the Jedi never discuss. They never even mention the Jango/Dooku connection. As if they either didn't notice or don't care.

Looking at the shooting script, things were a bit different. We had Sido-Dyas, a fake Jedi and the Jedi knew it. You also had Darth Tyrannus hiring Jango and the Jedi knew this someone was a Sith. The Jedi speculate who might be behind this army, possibly someone in the senate and this someone is looking to start a war.

Lucas then felt that this was perhaps too simple so he changed some things. Instead of Sido-Dyas, we have Sifo-Dyas, a real if dead Jedi. And just Tyrannus hired Jango. But if Lucas wanted the audience to think that Sifo-Dyas might have ordered the army or that the Jedi think this, he didn't do a very good job of that. He had a specific line from Obi-Wan saying that Sifo-Dyas was apparently dead when the order was placed, meaning he didn't do it. And he have Jango not recognizing the name Sifo-Dyas. So the basic gist of the clone army plot is unchanged. It was still ordered under a false name and the Jedi know it.

So if Lucas wanted the Jedi to at least consider that one of their own did this, why have these lines in the movie?
Obi-Wan could just report that Sifo-Dyas placed the order almost ten years ago and ask if the council agreed to this.
Mace says no and adds that unfortunately, Sifo-Dyas was killed about seven years ago so they can't ask him.
Jango could say he knows of Sifo-Dyas but didn't actually meet him, he only met a guy named Tyrannus.
Now the Jedi has reason enough to at least consider the possibility that one of their own did this.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

The Jedi know that someone called Tyranus hired Jango Fett to be the clone template, that a Jedi deleted Kamino from the Archives and that someone posed as Sifo-Dyas to order the clone army. There's no connection with Dooku whatsoever. Jango going to him means nothing since he's a gun for hire. They could've speculated that Dooku could have deleted Kamino, but why? And even if they had a reason, it would be mere speculation. There's still the Tyranus persona that they don't know. In essence, they don't have enough information nor proof to connect the dots. They only do the math when it was revealed to them that Tyranus and Dooku are one and the same.

 

Just as the movie audience did!

 

No connection? Really?

In our world of today, if the same mercenary was hired for two seemingly unrelated jobs. That is something that most investigators would not be quick to dismiss. If the same gun was used in two unrelated killings, that is something the cops would look into. If the same car was used at two different robberies, again the cops would pursue that as a lead.

In a galaxy's worth of mercenaries, for the same guy to be hired for these two jobs by mere chance is microscopic and is something only an idiot would immediately dismiss. Esp since the clone army Jango worked with is now directly opposing the droid army that Dooku made. And Jango and Dooku are working together. You don't need too many brain cells to see that something is fishy here.

If the Jedi know that Sifo-Dyas did not order the army by account of being dead, a Jedi MUST still be involved as ONLY a Jedi could have deleted the Kamino file. And a Jedi would know Sifo-Dyas name, know that he was dead and would be ideal to pose as this Sifo-Dyas.
Deleting the file and ordering an army illegally is not something that a jedi should really do.
So this Jedi is seriously bending the rules if not outright violating them.
Dooku fits all of this plus he is connected to Jango and he has turned to the dark side so following Jedi rules is not a concern.

In short, the Jedi have more than enough evidence to suspect that Dooku is involved and unless they are idiots, it would be something they should look into. And if they know Sifo-Dyas wasn't involved, then the army was ordered under a false name. That, combined with the Dooku thing, is more than enough for the Jedi to view the clone army with great distrust.
And if the learn that Dooku is Tyrannus then they would know that the war is a sham, fake and the sith were directly involved with both armies and a sith ordered a totally obedient clone army that follow any order without question. So the Jedi now have even more reason to be vary of the clones.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Of course they know that something's not right with the clones, but they still need the army to protect the Republic against the droid army - and they need it straight away, before the Separatists attack.
Further investigation will just have to wait. Once they realize that Tyranus is Dooku, though, there's no turning back. War is everywhere by then. A war that they actually started in order to stop the Separatists. Calling the soldiers home and waving the white flag is out of the question.

 

Obi-Wan overheard a secret conference where Dooku planned to attack an unprotected Republic. Why would he suspect of Dooku creating an army to fight against? And on such a huge galaxy, all the more reason to not associate Jango's job as a template and him going to Dooku/Gunray. Besides, Jango going to Gunray merely proves once again that Jango was hired to kill Padmé.

Also, you're judging them based not on the evidence the Jedi have but based on the audience's POV.

 

Obi-Wan tells the Kaminoans "Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago." Why wouldn't they believe he was involved? Even if he died around the time the order was placed, there might still be Kaminoan records of first contact, negotiations, etc.

 

It's weird, though, that he later says to Mace and Yoda: "They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order for a clone army at the request of the Senate almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that".

 

In the junior novelization of AOTC, while he's saying that to the Kaminoans, he's thinking:


More like eleven or twelve years, I think - but I could have the times mixed up. I'll have to check with Master Yoda later.


"I'm afraid Master Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago," Obi-Wan said slowly. More like eleven or twelve years, I think - but I could have the times mixed up. I'll have to check with Master Yoda later.

"I'm sorry to hear that." Lama Su sounded sincere, and Obi-Wan sensed no falsehood in his statement. "But I'm sure he would have been proud of the army we've built for him."

An army? Dexter had said the Kaminoans were cloners. A million units, Obi-Wan thought numbly. An army of a million troops. That's enough to conquer the Republic. He swallowed hard, then hesitated, trying to think how best to phrase his next question, "Tell me, Prime Minister," he said at last, "when my Master first contacted you about the army, did he say who it was for?"

"Of course he did," Lama Su said in a reassuring tone. "This army is for the Republic."

For the Republic? Obi-Wan struggled to make sense of what he was being told. Sifo-Dyas had ordered this army ten years ago - that must have been just after the Naboo war. He had been a powerful Jedi. Had he foreseen the need, even then?

Not sure why he'd try to mislead the Kaminoans - although later in the conversation he does pretend to be Sifo-Dyas's student "Did my Master say whom it was for" - and he does seem to be thinking it's plausible.

 

He's not pretending to be his student, it's just semantics and a way of saying that he came representing the Jedi. Since Sifo-Dyas is a Master while Kenobi is just a Knight, he's technically a Master to him.

 

It's hard to imagine Obi-Wan referring to, for example, Mace, as "my Master" to a third person though.

 

I don't. It's precisely because he's talking to a third person that he can say that. If it was to a fellow Jedi, no.

 

I am very much judging them based on the evidence they have, they know everything the audience knows except that Dooku is Tyrannus and they know enough to at least suspect that.

First, about Jango, the huge galaxy is EXACTLY the reason why only an idiot would assume that the same mercenary was hired for these two jobs by mere chance. Say that there are 1000 mercenaries/bounty hunters in the whole SW galaxy, which is a VERY small number.
For the same person to be picked twice by total random chance, the odds are 0,0001%.
If the number is higher, which is reasonable, the odds go down quickly.

Nute wanted Padme dead and told Dooku this so now Dooku would have to go look for a assassin to do the job. That he would just happen to pick Jango by random chance is so very remote that it becomes highly unlikely. Plus Jango had spent most of his time on Kamino and raising his son, so he is less active than before. This lowers the odds even more.

Instead the more likely alternative is that Dooku used a mercenary he already had working for him.
Dooku was the one who ordered Jango to kill Padme as a favor to Nute. If Dooku was also the one who hired Jango to be the template then Dooku doesn't need to go looking for an assassin, he already has one at hand.

As for what Obi-Wan overheard. You are going about it backwards. If the Jedi conclude that Sifo-Dyas was dead when the order was placed, he could not have been involved. BUT a Jedi MUST be involved since only a Jedi could tamper with their files.
Dooku is a possible and even likely suspect, he was a Jedi so deleting the file is something he could have done. He knew of Sifo-Dyas and that he was dead so he could pose as him. And he has turned to the dark side and joined the Sith. Plus and most importantly, he is connected to Jango.
This is isn't rock solid, 100% evidence but more than enough for the Jedi to suspect that Dooku was this Tyrannus.

Then you get into things like motive. Why would Dooku build an army for the republic when he was also making a droid army to attack it with? Fair play? This is a reasonable question, yes. To answer that they can look at what happened. A clone army, ordered in secret by persons unknown, just happens to be ready within days of it being needed. Oddly convenient.
You might say "A Jedi foresaw the attack and acted accordingly." But as AotC establishes, the Jedi's ability to see through the Force is weakened but a Sith would not be impaired. And why would a Jedi see this and not warn his fellow Jedi? Makes no sense. Plus as I've said, the whole army thing is at best illegal and at worst treason, not something a Jedi should normally do. A Jedi that has turned though, no problem.
So what would Dooku gain from this? Well without the clone army, there wouldn't be much of a war. The seps would quickly win and enforce their demands on the senate. The republic would be split in two, the seps and what was left of the republic. But instead we now have a big war which will be much longer, engulf the galaxy and would kill many more people and cause much more chaos and destruction. Doesn't sound like something the Sith would be opposed to. Plus, since the sith at one point ruled the galaxy, what would they want most, all of it or just a part?

To sum up, I am not saying that the Jedi would immediately figure everything out but they know enough to suspect that they are being played and they should dig deeper and take some precautions. But the Jeid seemed oblivious to most of this and got taken totally by surprise when the clones turned on them. This greatly weakened the drama for me.

@Iron_lord

As Lulu_Mars said, he later says that Sifo-Dyas was apparently killed BEFORE the ordering of the army.
And forget novelizations etc and answer this, why is this line IN the movie?
Is it;
a) To convince the Jedi and the audience that Sifo-Dyas really did order the army.
or
b) To inform the Jedi and the audience that there is something very fishy with this army and it was most likely ordered under a false name.

Plus you have Jango not knowing Sifo-Dyas name and the audience/Jedi have even more reason to suspect he wasn't involved.
As I said before, if Lucas intent was to show that the Jedi think that Sifo-Dyas really did place the order, he didn't do a very good job of that. In fact he deliberately put lines IN the film that directly speaks against it. Again why have those things in the film when the intent is to show how the Jedi came to accept the clone army and why they trust it implicitly?
The shooting script made it clear to both Jedi/audience that the army was ordered under a false name. But even with these changes, this still seem to be the case. The audience/Jedi have every reason to think that the army was not ordered by Sifo-Dyas, thus it was ordered under a false name.

In closing, I am not arguing the Jedi should refuse to fight but that they should be aware of the possibility that they are being played and they should be more careful with the clone army. And in RotS, when they discuss removing Palpatine from office and disbanding the senate, the totally obedient clone army should not be overlooked. But the Jedi seem not to care or notice all the question marks and just use the clones and are taken totally by surprise in the end. This makes them look clueless in my eyes and weakened the drama.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I disagree. You can be suspicious all you want, but the clones are the only chance the Republic has. As such, the Jedi can't just wait things out to look whether the clones are maybe not as perfect as they appear to be, as that would lead to the even worse point of the Republic being destroyed. You do not ignore something out of fear that it may hurt the Republic, if the other option is that the Republic gets destroyed anyway. Beyond that, further material does suggest that they tried to look into things but never found anything that could have put the clones loyalty to the Republic in doubt.

You also ignore that the "totally obedient clone army" was also totally obedient to them. If you are fighting a war over years and your army proves its loyalty to you again and again, with no hint of a problem, why wouldn't they be surprised if the clones suddenly turn against them?
There is no weakened drama. The Jedi are put in a bad spot, but the clones show utmost loyalty to them. Having the army that hadn't shown a hint of illoyalty suddenly stab its leaders in the back is the height of drama, not the opposite.

 

Samuel Vimes: I understand that, absolutely. Some things in these movies could have been made a bit clearer, no doubt about it. The Council members could've expressed doubts about the army in AOTC and then concluded that at the present time, they see no alternative but to make use of it, for the Republic's sake (which of course could've been used against them by Palpatine later. "Why were they so quick to start a war" etc). In ROTS, they could've brought it up again and mentioned that the clones had proven trustworthy, that they themselves aren't the problem, that whoever wanted this war started is the one to watch out for etc. That could've helped bring home the point that they really trust and rely on their soldiers, to give Order 66 greater impact.

I can't really argue with that, because I see your point and it has merit.
I personally don't have a need for that, though.

 

Perhaps you didn't notice that I wrote "I am not arguing the Jedi should refuse to fight".
My argument isn't that the Jedi should flat out refuse to fight as that would get them labeled as traitors and would make things even worse. But going along with things doesn't mean they can't look into things and make preparations in case things turn out bad. Like limiting the number of Jedi out in the field, moving some of their people away from Coruscant as having all your people in one spot is dangerous. They could also reach out to senators they feel they can trust and let them in on what they know.
Also, the clone army is just 200 000 soldiers with a million under way. They have to use them right now but they along with some senators could build an army based on recruits and what ever local forces the various worlds have. So that the republic army isn't just clones.
The Jedi have ample reason to suspect foul play but in the films they seem to ignore all of it and this makes them seem clueless.

"Further material" from what I know, have the Jedi find out that Dooku IS Tyrannus so they KNOW that the clone army they are now using was ordered by the Sith. The Sith, who are the Jedi's worst enemy, is behind an army of clones that will follow ANY order without question. And the Jedi have no reason to be concerned?

[/QUOTE]

Wrong, the "total obedience" is very much relevant in what I am saying. The clones can not choose to be loyal, they can only follow orders, any order. They obey the Jedi yes but for such an army to function, there must be a chain of command, that in the case of conflicting orders, those given by a person with a higher authority would take precedent. Since the Jedi serve the senate, the leader of the senate, outranks them. So Palpatine can give an order to the clones and they will obey it and the Jedi will not be able to countermand it. So the Jedi are aware that they army they work with, if given an order to kill them, will not hesitate or refuse to carry out such an order.

This combined with all the question marks the jedi are aware of, should make the Jedi be more careful with the clones and it should not be something they ignore.
But they do and the clones turn on them. Sorry it was not dramatic at all. I knew from the mid point in AotC that the clones would betray them so it was just a matter of waiting for the other shoe to drop. And the jedi seemed totally oblivious to the danger which made them seem clueless and so they get wiped out, not because Palpatine is smart, but because they are dumb.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I suppose one can suspect as much after hearing that they'll take any order without question, but more than that, it was screamingly obvious that these guys were the precursors of Imperial stormtroopers - to those of us who had seen Star Wars before, that is.
From the perspective of someone who wasn't a Star Wars noob, most of the big turning points in this trilogy lacked some of the impact that they had on newcomers. That's a given.

 

It is more than that. They are clones of a assassin who has been involved in a plot to kill Padme. Doesn't make him seem very friendly. Kamino was removed from the Jedi archives, both suggesting that someone wanted to keep it and the army a secret. Again this doesn't sound very nice.
The person who ordered it was apparently killed before the army was ordered and Jango has never heard of Sifo-Dyas. So on top of all the above, the army was ordered under a false name.
And Jango works for Dooku, a Sith.

It practically screams "It's a Trap!"

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor