PT Lucas's PT Notes

Great. This again.

Not going to rehash the same tired arguments, but what's important is the Jedi at the end of the day had no choice but to use the army, and the fact that the Clones didn't kill them during battle validated them to a great extent.

 

As far as the Jedi knew, there was no clear connection between Tyranus and Dooku at least in the films. Jango was a thug for hire with no loyality to either side. They didn't even know if Tyranus was a force user at all let alone a darksider. Even in ROTS they still didn't know Dooku was the one who ordered the clones. However in AOTC and ROTS they knew something was wrong and why they did come to suspect Palps, even if it was too late to do any good. Sorry Vimes but you are just creating a non-problem here.

 

Or so he says. Obi-Wan doesn't have to take his word for it.

 

When I created the thread I seriously wasn't hoping it'd be all this.

-----------------------

One time this topic got brought up I was arguing that the Jedi had to take control of the army even if they do know Dooku is really behind it, lest they be deemed traitors to the Republic by Palpatine. I got shot down.

 

And why would Jango lie about that? If he says that he met/was hired by Sifo-Dyas, that makes the clone army seem more legit, not less, and would make it easier for the Jedi to accept it and ask less questions.
That would be a GOOD thing for Dooku/Palpatine. It would be in their interest for the Jedi to NOT ask too many questions or have too many suspicions about the clone army. Same thing for the senate.
If all available evidence points to Sifo-Dyas ordering the army then a) it would make it easy for the Jedi/senate to accept it and b) it implicates the Jedi.
However if there is solid evidence that Sifo-Dyas was dead when the army was ordered, and Jango never knowing his name etc. That makes the army seem very fishy and it could lead to questions from the Jedi and/or the senate.

Why was Jango never told Sifo-Dyas name? When Dooku hired him, he must have known that the Kamino people knew that name so why not tell Jango about it? If he was asked any questions it would help that he knew the name. But for some reason he wasn't told even though it would have been useful.

@Slicer87

As I've said many times now, Jango IS a connection. In a whole galaxy's worth of mercenaries and assassins, the odds that the same guy just happens to get hired for these two jobs by mere chance is minute. And ANY investigator with half a brain would not immediately dismiss it as nothing.

They KNOW a Jedi was involved as ONLY a Jedi could have tampered with their files. IF the Jedi know that Sifo-Dyas was already dead when the order was placed then he could not have tampered with their files. So someone else did. They know that this Tyrannus hired Jango so obviously he was involved with the placing of the order. If he is a Jedi in disguise he could also have deleted the file.
Dooku fits like a glove here, he was a Jedi so he could have deleted the file and he is connected with Jango. Plus EU says that Dooku was very wealthy so he had the money to pull this off. Regular Jedi were not rich.
And according to TCW, the Jedi find out that Dooku = Tyrannus between AotC and RotS. So they KNOW that Dooku hired Jango. Combine this with Sifo-Dyas already beign dead before the order and the picture becomes very clear. Dooku posed as Sifo-Dyas, hired Jango and deleted the Kamino file.
This is not hard to puzzle out.

Did the Jedi suspect Palpatine because of the clone army? Where is that said IN the films.
They suspect him because he has been in office longer than what the law says and he has been amassing more and more power. In fact since they talk about removing him and suspending the senate, the totally obedient clone army would be a factor since Palpatine has the highest rank and thus can order them to do anything. But no, the Jedi never mention them.

A few lines of dialogue in AotC about the Jango/Dooku connection and them saying they would look into this. Then in RotS the Jedi have traced the money that paid for the clones to someone in Palpatine's office. And the set Anakin to spy on Palpatine and those around him because of this, to try and find out who did this. This would have been enough to show that the Jedi are at least aware of the problem.

And this is very much a problem because the Jedi comes across as clueless and incompetent, which I doubt was the intention.
And speaking about intentions, what was Lucas goal here?
Was the aim to give the Jedi enough evidence to think that Sifo-Dyas really did this but the audience would know better? If so, he did a very poor job of that. Why have Obi-Wan deliberately say that Sifo-Dyas was killed BEFORE the army was ordered? Why is this line IN the film unless to show that the army was most likely ordered under a false name and the Jedi know it?
Remove this line and have Obi-Wan ask if Sifo-Dyas got an ok from the council and have Mace deny it. Mace does add that Sifo-Dyas might have done this but he died eight years ago so they can't ask him. And have Jango know Sifo-Dyas name. This gives the Jedi enough reason to at least consider the possibility that one of their own was behind the army.

But we know that the shooting script had Sido-Dyas, a fake Jedi and the Jedi knew it. So there it was no question that the order was placed under a false name. But only a few scenes were redone and the implication remains, the army was ordered under a false name.
If Lucas tried to give a different impression, he failed.

@wmu'14

I have argued in the past that the least bad alternative for the Jedi IS to use the clones. They have little choice, the senate has given them an order and if they refuse they are traitors.
They could have used it with more caution, done some digging and made preparations in case the clone army was not on the up and up. And they should have used less boneheaded tactics on Geonosis. Had they been able to kill/capture Dooku, they could have ended the war before it started.

The problem I have is that the Jedi seem unaware of the many questions marks with the clone army and do nothing about them. They never talk about the Jango/Dooku connection, which should be relevant. They take no precautions what so ever with the clones and in RotS they talk about removing Palpatine from office and suspending the senate. The clone army is again very relevant here. But they never talk about it.

The clone army's job is to wipe out the Jedi. Fine. The problem is that this requires the Jedi to not suspect a thing but Jedi are aware of a great many fishy things about the clone army. So the Jedi seemingly ignore all they know and use the clone army without any questions or precautions and when the clones turn on them, they are taken totally by surprise. Given how much they knew, they should not have been this careless and they should not have been so totally surprised.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Lucas just simply made the story as the Prequels went along and there are potholes for sure. One must gather that the Jedi are in a position of being outmatched by the Seperatist army and there become desperate which leads to ...yes we have questions about this army, but Sifo Dyas obviously had great foresight, and the Republic is counting on us (making Jedi desperate).