Saga Luke and Han or Anakin and Obi-Wan?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Force Smuggler, Dec 12, 2013.

  1. Force Smuggler Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Which friendship did you like better? Luke and Han in the OT or Anakin and Obi-Wan in the PT?
    I prefer Luke and Han because we see them become friends through fire. The rescue on the Death Star, shooting at the Ties while escaping the Death Star, the conversation before the Battle of Yavin, Han coming back, Han being concerned about Luke on Hoth, Han going after Luke, their goodbye on Hoth, Luke going after Han and Leia at Cloud City, Luke leading the rescue mission to free Han, both going to Endor, Han giving up Leia for Luke so Leia will be happy etc.
    Obi-Wan and Anakin? 25 seconds of dialogue in TPM, Obi-Wan not being impressed with Anakin, OB1 only taking Anakin as his apprentice as Qui-Gon Jinn's dying wish, Anakin not happy with Obi-Wan in AOTC but goes to rescue him anyway even if Padme was the one to force his hand, Obi-Wan was concerned about Anakin through out the film, and the beginning of ROTS where I felt Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the highpoint of Han and Luke's friendship.
    You're thoughts?
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  2. sharkymcshark Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2013
    star 3
    As much as I think Han and Luke are vastly superior characters both in design and execution, it really has to go the Anakin and Obi Wan. They didn't have a better friendship - it ended with one of them chopping off 3 limbs of the other and leaving him to die in a lake of fire - but you saw more of it and it was developed more. There was more depth to it.

    It wasn't a perfect portrayal of a friendship - it was really helped by Ewan McGregor being one of the few actors in the PT to turn in a good performance. The fact that Christiansen's performance wasn't anywhere near this standard is part of the reason that a lot of their banter fell flat, such as at the beginning of AOTC or after they save Palpatine in ROTS.
    The whole Obi Wan holding Anakin back, while horrendously acted out at the start of AOTC, provided a much more interesting and convincing basis for Anakin's fall to the dark side than having a series of bad dreams about his wife and then being convinced to betray basically everyone he knows because Palpatine doesn't actually know how to save her but might at some point find out.

    The point being that you saw the friendship grow and change - there were less and less direct mentoring moments (like for example the spiel about never losing your lightsabre outside the bar in AOTC) as the saga went on, because Anakin was growing and learning. His anger at Obi Wan in AOTC later turned into anger at the entire Jedi Council in ROTS. You could see that as they approached being considered equals, as opposed to a master and student, that the dynamic actually changed. The development of the relationship between Obi Wan and Anakin is actually is probably one of the high points of the PT, even if you account for the flaws in writing and performance along the way.

    By comparison Han and Luke didn't really spend that much of the OT hanging out together. If you consider that they'd become friends after escaping the Death Star, then:
    - Han saved Luke's life during the Battle of Yavin IV
    - Han saved Luke's life on Hoth
    - Luke attempted to save Han's life (and that of Leia and Chewie) on Bespin, and failed
    - Luke saved Han from Jabba
    - Luke hung around with Han for a little bit on Endor's moon

    There's not a lot of Han/Luke time there, and there's no real development of the relationship. Even in ESB when Leia kisses Luke when Han jibes her after Luke comes out of the Bacta there was no change in the dynamic (jealousy, resentment etc). I'm not saying that there should have been, I'm just saying that the way it was portrayed there was no depth, nuance or function added to the relationship after the second act of ANH, at which point it was established that they were friends and should therefore save eachother's lives quite a lot.
  3. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Great points by @sharkymcshark. The truth is I am not that impressed by Anakin and Obi-Wan's friendship in the films. You really have to venture into the EU to get all the nuances of it and appreciate it for what Obi-Wan says it was in the OT. I really do enjoy their final scene together as friends, as Anakin sends Obi-Wan off to capture General Grievous. You do see the respect, love, and appreciation they have for each other. When Obi-Wan see's the video on Anakin killing the Jedi, you the grief and disappointment. Obi-Wan was truly believed in Anakin. Anakin was everything Obi-Wan had wanted him to be, but somehow had still fallen to the dark side. Han and Luke's friendship didn't have anywhere near as much pressure on it. Yeah, Han kinda didn't believe in Luke, though he was a talented kid with delusions of grandeur, but they never really went through the trials that Anakin and Obi-Wan do. Imagine Han really leaving the Rebels to be a freelance and ending up taking a job for the Empire, Leia declaring him an enemy of the Rebellion and forcing Luke to shoot him down. That's the pressure of the Obi-Wan Anakin dynamic.
  4. Carbon1985 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    Luke & Han are the perfect opposites that work in all great movies. Luke is the ultimate good guy who looks at the world in a naive way, while Han is the ultimate cool guy who looks at world cynically. What makes their arcs great is by the end of the trilogy Han would sacrifice himself for anyone while Luke becomes the ultimate leader for the cause totally contrasting their characters in the original movie.

    I have always said that Episode I should have been all about Anakin/Obiwans friendship as we get 2 hours to get to know the younger characters we got to know in the OT. Then they are established for Episode II & III and we can feel for those characters once their friendship comes to a tragic end. Real missed opportunity by Lucas.
    Last edited by Carbon1985, Dec 12, 2013
  5. PiettsHat Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    If we're talking about which relationship is healthier, then Han and Luke of course win out.

    For which I like better, however, that would be Anakin and Obi-Wan. Han and Luke are, following ANH, buddies pure and simple. And they work well in that context together since they don't get a ton of screen time as a unit, with Han more focused on Leia and Luke more focused on his father. For Anakin and Obi-Wan, though, there's a great deal of tension in the relationship, of frustration, and bitterness. But there's also a great deal of devotion and love as well. I think Lucas does a good job of showing how and why Anakin resents Obi-Wan (however irrational it may be at times) while still loving him and trying to please him at the same time. Similarly, Obi-Wan's caution and exasperation with Anakin is also really well set up in Episode I and feeds well into Episode II, with the situation regarding Anakin's mother. I also think it was necessary for Anakin's eventual fall that their relationship be this way, not just because Obi-Wan is Anakin's teacher and superior (which certainly plays a part), but also because I can't see Luke ever turning against Han the way Anakin did with Obi-Wan. The fault lines needed to be there for Palpatine to exploit. And exploit them he did.
  6. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of CT, SW Saga and Lucasfilm Ltd

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    I love Anakin and Obi-Wan but their friendship was shown better in TCW.

    All the same, I love the smartass banter, and Luke is so terrible at smartass banter that he practically needs Leonard Hofstadter to hold a sign for him. So...Anakin and Obi-Wan.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Dec 12, 2013
  7. Kyy Jinn Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2013
    star 1
    I definitely prefer Obi-Wan and Anakin's. You see Luke and Han being buddies here and there, but not true friends or anything similar. I have to disagree that Hayden's performance as Anakin was poor--he worked with what he was given, and I think he did a stellar job, but I know this argument is useless anywhere on the Internet. Obi-Wan and Anakin's friendship was very close in the movies, EU, and cartoons. Once we get several years into the EU, Luke and Han's friendship develops quite a bit, but even then, I don't think their friendship even comes close to being on par with Obi-Wan and Anakin's.
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  8. Sarge Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 1998
    star 5
    Hanging out with Ani and Obi? That would be listening to them talk about angst and disappointment and failure and troubled relationships. :(

    Han and Luke would be telling jokes and war stories and listening to Figrin Dan and the Modal Nodes in the cantina. :cool:

    Well, that wasn't a hard decision.
  9. Jarren_Lee-Saber Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2008
    star 4
    Hanging out with Anakin and Obi-Wan? That would be listening to them talk about all the awesome battles they fought together, with clever banter about who saved who, with additional jokes and even more war stories. :cool:

    Hanging out with Han and Luke? That would be listening to Han grouching about whether or not he actually likes Leia and boasting about his Kessel runs (and randomly yelling at Chewbacca) while referring to everyone is derogatory terms. In between sentences Luke wines about how no one understands him or the Force.

    Definitely Anakin and Obi-Wan!
  10. Samnz Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    I like Luke and Han's friendship better. I like Anakin and Obi-Wan' general relationship better, though.

    Luke and Han are friends and that's obvious. I also agree with @ForceSmuggler that their friendship is wonderfully established in ANH. However, there is not much more to it in the following films. Sure, it is used to lure Luke, but it's "just" a friendship. They don''t share much screen time together and their firendship is never challenged again.
    Anakin and Obi-Wan - on the other hand - is a more multifaceted relationship imo. Unexpectedly, they ended up as master and apprentice. Obi-Wan took the burden that Qui-Gon placed upon him and trained the boy he was first cautious about. Nevertheless, he obviously grew very fond of him and - by the time of ROTS, when their explosive student/master relation had ended - they finally won real friendship. Then all hell broke loose and their friendship ended in flames.

    So if you ask me strictly about friendship, I'd go with Han and Luke. If you ask me about the character's relationship in general, the way it shifts troughout their screentime and they way it engages me emotionally and intellectually, I'd go with Obi-Wan and Anakin.
    Last edited by Samnz, Dec 13, 2013
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  11. I Are The Internets Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 8
  12. ObiAlKenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2012
    star 2
    Luke and Han.

    Obi-Wan seems to be annoyed constantly with Anakin. Then Anakin talks behind his back all the time. Then he wants to kill Obi-Wan...literally...lol.
    Sarge likes this.
  13. Darkslayer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2013
    star 6
    I prefer Anakin and Obi-Wan, especially in The Clone Wars, when we get to see the hilarious brother moments between them that Obi-Wan referred to in ROTS. I would though like to see a TCW-style animated series between Episodes 4 and 6, that would be really cool.
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  14. I Are The Internets Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 8
    We never really get to see comeradery with Luke and Han.
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  15. Darkslayer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2013
    star 6
    That's why I want a Civil War-era TV show!
  16. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    What's comradery to you? you know they fight in a war together right?
  17. I Are The Internets Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 8
    Yeah but I want chumliness and banter dammit!
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  18. Sarge Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 1998
    star 5
    Chumliness?!

    You made that up.
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  19. DRush76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I don't know.

    Luke and Han's friendship was a lot of fun to watch . . . especially in the first movie. But I found Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship rather fascinating in a more complex way. So, I have no definite answer for this question.
    Last edited by DRush76, Dec 16, 2013
  20. I Are The Internets Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 8
    I guess I'll have to unmake it up.
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  21. Carbon1985 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    No way, Han is the perfect wing-man to take to bars to pick up women. You spot a girl you like, and tell Han to go talk to her cause he's got that cockiness you need to go cold turkey to talke to women. While if you have Anakin as your wing-man, you will probably get smacked by some girl who gets all creeped out! :p
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  22. Jarren_Lee-Saber Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2008
    star 4
    You'll NEVER get laid if your wingman calls you "kid" all the time :p
  23. Deputy Rick Grimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
  24. Carbon1985 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    [face_laugh]

    How about 'Junior' ?
    "That's two you owe me junior!" :p
    Last edited by Carbon1985, Dec 17, 2013
  25. CommanderDrenn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2013
    star 4
    Han and Luke because the relationship is more diverse in that: 1. One is arrogant, one is earnest. One is a Force User, 1 is a smuggler. But, Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship wasn't as fully developed as Luke and Han's in post-RotJ EU.