Saga Luke and Leia's mother in the Classic Trilogy

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Brenapp, Dec 20, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: Darth_Nub, Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn
  1. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    @DRush76: you're right as regards to the pregnancy (something which I am not familiar with) : this would lead to a certain "nesting" for many women as I understand it.

    And @PiettsHat: domesticate is indeed a far better word choice for what I was trying to convey.

    Actually, as DRush76 said, I don't particularly have anything against Padme's choices - a heavily pregnant woman is most likely far more focused on domestic issues. I *do wish* we had seen more of the "cut" scenes to flesh out her character, though.

    It is AoTC (and particularly its novelization) that I start to have the occasional issues with her portrayal. While I like the movie, it is the source of most of my dissatisfaction with characterization in general, Anakin most particularly, but Padme and Obi-Wan as well (it's ROTS that cemented my fondness for Obi-Wan, not AoTC).

    I can buy that strong, professional-centered women can fall in love and dream of a family life - but in media, it's how this is portrayed that often bothers me. The gender "gap" is most visible at such times.

    I agree that Anakin actually seems less attached to his "job" than Padme: I can safely say I rather overlooked that, and yet it seems that it is Padme who is far more willing to remove herself from a professional life (or lessen it) in favor of a domestic life (again, based on the novel as well as the movie). When this comes out in ROTS - well, again, a woman about to give birth will have at least a temporary shift of allegiances - any mothers (fathers, too) wish to expand on this based on personal experience which I lack?

    Female-female friendships seem to feature mainly in "chick flicks" (until "Mr Right" comes along :rolleyes: ): they rarely feature in "action" or sci-fi movies, so I can't fault GL for that, especially when SW is set up as a father-son dynamic.

    As for:
    :D I'm not impressed with muscles, so tank-topped Luke was more of a curiosity than idolation. And Anakin's shirtless scene seemed rather "pandering" than anything else. But still - I wouldn't hide my eyes at a shirtless Obi-Wan, no, but truly, I find his eyes and smile most mesmerizing. The combo of mischievous glint and grin is terribly appealing (I am far more impressed by actors whose face and postures are used as tools to really develop their characters).

    But really - you know me well.:D
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Dec 31, 2012
  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I've been in that third trimester of pregnancy. Twice. As such I have a hard time accepting it as an excuse for what happened to Padme's character. We may be very focused on the life growing inside us during that time period but that doesn't mean that we forget, or should forget, that we ever had a purpose in life outside of motherhood.

    The only other thing I have to add is that I loved shirtless Anakin and don't care if it was pandering. :D
  3. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Oh, Anakinfan, you fangirl, you. :p

    I, however, am not in the least surprised that you of all woman didn't go into "nesting" mode - but then, whether it's a majority or minority of women who do, not all do. Maybe most don't.
  4. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Padme was still involved in her duties as Naboo's senator. ROTS made this obvious, especially in a conversation she had with Anakin about him convincing Palpatine to step down as Chancellor. I'm sorry, but . . . didn't anyone notice? I did.

    And why is it when it comes to Padme, many fans (especially women) demand that she and other female characters be portrayed or regarded in an idealized manner? Why? Why can't they be human with flaws?



    I didn't say that as a heavily pregnant woman, Padme was more focused on domestic issues. I was trying to hint that because she was in her third trimester, it would have been difficult for her to be some kind of action heroine throughout the movie. After all, the story required that she give birth to Luke and Leia by the end of ROTS.
    Last edited by DRush76, Dec 31, 2012
    lbr789 and kainee like this.
  5. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Just who are you directing your post at, DRush76? If you ever see the totality of my posts on such issues, you'll see I applaud the idea of getting away from idealized feminine "perfection." I certainly don't demand it of Padme, or Satine, or Asajj...

    So, yeah, :oops:, I saw that scene. I saw lots of scenes. I try usually not to focus on one scene, but the overall tone of the movie when discussing such issues as this. Notice, as well, I brought in the novel which is a far worse "offender" than the movie in this regard.

    So don't lump me in with
    They certainly can be flawed. I hope they are flawed.

    But the discussion veered more into the direction of women's portrayal in the Saga, not a character dissection of Padme as such, she just happened to be a woman in the Saga which highlighted some of the issues in some ways and at some times.

    Also, I never demeaned her choices; I more or less explained how *I* viewed her choices from a perspective of women's portrayal in films and SW in particular.
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Dec 31, 2012
  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Not sure who he is directing his post towards, as I didn't ask that Padme be perfect either. I did, however, find that without the deleted scenes, she appears to have lost some mental strength and bordered on "damsel in distress" mode, and I found that a sad diminishing of her TPM and AOTC characters. Case in point, TPM Padme would not have stood on the balcony crying in her nightgown when she found out Anakin had gone to the now-ablaze Jedi Temple--she would put some clothes on, grabbed her blaster, told Captain Typho to **** himself (in a diplomatic way of course) and gone over there to find out what was happening.
    FARK2005 likes this.
  7. Joe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2012
    star 6
    Padme was pregnant at the time, so I think that it makes sense for her to not want to go into the thick of a dangerous situation. That does not excuse the crying, however.
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  8. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I'm directing my comments at whoever made the following post:

  9. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I agree that Padmé's pregnancy would have made her far more hesitant to place herself in physical danger, but what exactly is wrong with her crying?

    Does it show weakness on her part to cry as she hears that a loved one is in a burning building? I'd think that would be a rather normal reaction personally.
    Katana_Sundancer, lbr789 and kainee like this.
  10. Joe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2012
    star 6
    Anakin survived the Clone Wars. Worrying that Anakin would perish in a burning building is needless.
  11. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    That seems a little harsh to me. So if a husband survives four tours in Afghanistan (for example) and comes home to his pregnant wife, you think she would weak for crying if he was at his (normally safe) base and she saw it burning on television?
    Katana_Sundancer and kainee like this.
  12. Joe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2012
    star 6
    Is the husband force-sensitive and armed with a laser sword?
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  13. kainee Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 1
    That's what I don't get, either. What is so wrong with crying? Why is it an assumption that it's a weakness simply to cry? This is why I hate the double standard when it comes to how women are portrayed in visual media. Either they need to be strong in a masculine all the time-- constantly kicking ass and taking names. Otherwise, they're labeled as too domestic, too feminine, and too weak.

    No, I don't think it a feasible or logical reaction as others have suggested for Padme to go action girl when she saw the smoke coming up from the Jedi temple. First of all, she's pregnant and her first response is always for the baby (You can see this when Anakin reveals his vision to her and her immediate reply is "And the baby?" whereas Anakin is still fixated on the fact that she dies). Secondly, she's on Coruscant where what she can do is far more restricted-- I'm willing to bet that like most people, when she saw the smoke, she wanted to go see if Anakin was okay but couldn't because there was that issue with the secret marriage and also the fear that doing so would be stupid because it would endanger her and the baby, as well as all these other fears. It's not like she's a firefighter and even though we know the fire is caused by fighting at the temple, she doesn't-- she has a distinct lack of knowledge other than smoke in the distance at this point. Also, I would say her crying is a good response to a paralysis of fear, setting up a parallel between Padme and what her husband ultimately ends up doing. Lastly, why is it not okay for someone--anyone, regardless of gender-- to cry out of worry when they fear a loved one is in danger and they're helpless to do anything about it?
  14. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Ok, so it was directed at me and yet here I was AGREEING with you! Are you upset that I had a personal wish to see a few of her cut scenes focusing on her Senate work though she was pregnant? After all, the scenes were cut for pacing, not because of a GL desire to focus on Padme's "domestication."
  15. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    What does that have to do with anything though? Sure, Padmé knows that Anakin is capable of protecting himself. But that doesn't prevent her from fearing for his life. She says as much in the opening of ROTS when she expresses concern over the whispers that he had been killed. Plus, given the number of Jedi that died during the attack on the Temple, I would not say her fear for his safety is unfounded.

    If he's trapped in a burning building that's under attack, his laser isn't going to be much use against the flames. And if the Jedi Temple of all places is under serious threat, then that's all the more cause for concern. Of all the buildings in the galaxy (except perhaps the Senate) it should be the most well-fortified. So for such an emergency to have occurred is indicative that something is seriously wrong.

    But I also don't think that crying is a weakness either. It's a normal expression of emotion and I don't think there's any reason to feel ashamed of it. Especially when someone you love could be in danger.
  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Has anyone in this thread other than me actually been pregnant? Just curious.

    I don't have a problem with movie characters crying in sad situations per se; I certainly didn't have a problem with Anakin crying when his mother died, I didn't have a problem with Padme crying when Corde died. I had said in the past that I found the reactions of the OT characters far more abnormal because they were faced with their guardians' burnt corpses and their planets being blown to bits and there were no tears.

    However, what I really dislike is the idea that simply because she was pregnant, Padme goes from the woman who in TPM told all her advisors that yes, she was going back to her besieged planet to fight this battle herself and if they didn't like it, they could stick it where the stars didn't shine--to a woman who cries in her nightgown on a balcony. Pregnancy changes us, but not on that level. It does not and should not turn us into a damsel-in-distress archetype.

    IOW, the Padme from TPM or AOTC would not have accepted the idea of "being helpless" until she absolutely had no choice. Another example, Padme early in AOTC stayed on the landing platform where an assassin had just tried to blow up her ship, refused to move in spite of Captain Typho's pleas, until she knew that she could not save her handmaiden's life. And that same Padme told Anakin that he was not staying on Tatooine in spite of the Council's orders if he wanted to guard her, because she was going into battle.
  17. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I saw my mother go through a pregnancy when I was 11, but that's as close as I've ever gotten to the subject personally.

    I don't think that anyone was suggesting that Padmé was crying simply because she was pregnant, though. At least, I wasn't. And I apologize if it came across that way. I do think Padmé's pregnancy would have played a role in that she wouldn't have gone to the Jedi Temple out of fear of placing her child in danger. And, I think she would have realized that going there would only have exacerbated Anakin's situation because he would inevitably have tried to come to her aid as well.

    It's one thing to risk one's own life. I don't think that Padmé, at any point, was ever afraid to suffer and die for her cause. I do think, though, that she was worried about her child and also considered that her presence at the Temple could make Anakin's situation worse. She knew he was afraid for her life, so storming into a burning building would probably only make him panic and do something rash.

    But the point I was trying to make earlier was simply that she saw Anakin was in danger and it upset her. And I don't see anything wrong with her being upset. I would certainly cry if someone I loved was in a burning building.
    lbr789, Lady_Skywalker87 and kainee like this.
  18. kainee Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 1
    I think the difference we have in opinion in regards to Padme's reaction has to deal with segregating what we as the audience know and what the character knows. Those situations that you bring up, Padme knows are directly related to her and she can do something about it. When confronted with ominous smoke in the distance coming from the Jedi temple, Padme does NOT know what is causing it. It could be a fire, it could be a fight (involving laser swords and people with psychic powers or droids), it could be something much worse. She also doesn't know if Anakin is involved (even though we know he is) and I think she's smart to know that if he were, the presence of his pregnant wife would likely distract him during a life or death situation. Although we know her presence likely would have stopped the tragedy happening, she doesn't know that for certain. Like Anakin, all she knows is that something is happening.

    The pregnancy likely plays a role in her difference in mindset from the action girl role she played in TPM/AotC since I seriously doubt she would want to put herself in a situation where she rappels up/down a building exterior, climbs up a pillar, falls out of a moving vehicle, exchanges fire with hostile enemies (this time she wouldn't even have the guarantee of backup protection from Jedi), etc. I'm not even going into how pregnancy affects women but simply trying to approach this from if I were in Padme's shoes knowing what she knew. In TPM and AotC, she had way more information available about the situation at hand that she was able to react to with a plan of action. Here, she has no information and is thus, paralyzed by that lack, much like how the Jedi who would have taken a better course of action to prevent their ultimate fate if they only had the information that only Sidious had.

    I am not denigrating Padme as I'm pretty sure if she had known more about what was going on at the Temple, she would have done something. And bless her heart, Padme did try to DO something once she was given more information. Unfortunately, the information she received was after the fact from Obi-Wan and likely given by him so she could lead him to Anakin. And it still wasn't the entire picture because Obi-Wan himself only had part of the pieces.
  19. Iloveanakinandpadme Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    e


    I agree. Padme is hardly mentoined at all during the classic trilogy. Its heartbreaking.
    kainee likes this.
  20. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 3
    I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that the main reason Padme is crying is that she senses what Anakin is actually doing.
    While I'm sure her concern for Anakin's safety factored into it, IMO Anakin and Padme have a symbiotic link, and as the good in Anakin dies, Padme grows weaker. This makes far more sense to me than Padme simply crying because she is pregnant, or because she thinks Anakin is in danger.
  21. kainee Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 1
    I really wish this were true since I do love Anakin and Padme's relationship but I don't believe the events of the film support this theory. First of all, when Obi-Wan tells Padme of Anakin's role in the Temple purge, she is genuinely shocked and not prepared. If she'd known beforehand, then I believe she'd have been far more defensive with Obi-Wan if she still chose to protect Anakin or reached out for help from Obi-Wan if she decided to try to get Anakin back to the light (remember, she is a politician and that would be her first instinct-- the reach out and talk). Secondly, I read her going to Mustafar as a last ditch effort on her part to try to confirm Anakin didn't do the things that Obi-Wan accused him of and if she had such a psychic link with Anakin, that link would've have negated the need to confirm Obi-Wan's information. I do think that there is the possibility of a metaphorical link since Padme is symbolic of the Republic and everything he wants for Anakin so his choosing of Palpatine and the Dark side definitely kills her.

    Please note that the points I bring up don't necessarily negate the possibility of Padme and Anakin sharing some sort of psychic link-- it's just I don't think if they did share one that it came up in the crying scene or it could be a passive iteration of a link. I don't know, this is all speculation and what ifs from us fans, right? ;)
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  22. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 3
    Oh, for sure, I didn't mean that she actually knew what she was sensing. More of a subconscious thing, or a metaphor like you said. Personally I think she is sensing an unexplained feeling of loss connected to Anakin, and Anakin's soul in torment is enough to make her cry. Just my take on it though. [face_peace]

    Fair enough. I agree that it's Anakin's fall that ultimately kills her, but I guess I see this concept as far more indicative of a psychically linked bond than you. IMO (and I think you are in agreeance with me here) she gives up - loses the will to live - because Anakin has lost his soul. One the most impactful moments in ROTS for me is the moment Anakin finds out she has died. This is where the good in Anakin finally gives up, and as they can't live without each other, they are both (metaphorically for Anakin) dead. Off-topic, something I've always seen a hint of in the ending to this movie is that Anakin blames Anakin, rather than Vader, for Padme's death, which sets in stone his abandonment of his good persona, until of course Luke, the last link to Padme, rekindles it in the OT.
  23. kainee Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 1
    The point you bring up of Padme's death being the reason Anakin stays Vader because he blames it on Anakin is interesting and not something I had initially considered. It would be a good in-universe way of explaining why Vader treats Anakin separately.

    I am on the fence when it comes to Anakin and Padme sharing a link. I see there are moments where it is possible but then there are moments where it's not. Also, what psychic link? I think the films can tend to get ruined by a fandom obsessed with hammering out details like it's a game so a lot of the stuff that EU fans love like the psychic bonds that master and padawan are supposed to share become fanon even when the canon that supersedes everything, the films, seem to show evidence of it not being so clear cut. I'm pretty sure Anakin fell because he felt so isolated and along and without help so he broke from all that pressure, which seems to be evidence against his having any sort of psychic link to Padme or Obi-Wan. But then, the congruity of Padme and Anakin's death with Vader and the twins' birth seem to support some sort of link. So, that's why I say I don't know. It sure is fun to speculate though.
  24. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    I don't agree with the psychically linked bond, but I like the notion of both Padme and Anakin dying of a broken heart because of each other. Very operatic.
    kainee likes this.
  25. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    As you said, early fanfic only had master/padawans sharing a "sense" of what-is through the Force, none of this talking to each other stuff so prevalent now (and I am equally guilty of this!). "Bonds" were more akin to closely bonded famiy/friends in *our* world initially.
Moderators: Darth_Nub, Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.