ST Luke and Rey: their dynamic from TLJ and beyond

But you saw fit to expect it from me/us, instead of debating your points with "semantics" as you deemed them. We were in the wrong enough with what you say we think you said (and not that you REALLY said....apparently), that you expected us to buckle.

So yeah, that's about what I expected.

You're welcome to throw me on ignore, that's what it's for. But try not to end up in an echo chamber, cause that's not good either.

 

Luke being afraid of Rey, in light of Snoke and mass genocide, makes about as much sense as Luke believing the Alliance could be lost if he died, Leia thinking the Republic/Resistance's hope lies in one Jedi, her brother, Snoke being afraid of Luke training Jedi again, and Yoda/Obi-wan thinking that Leia and Luke, single handedly, were the hope for the galaxy.

Jedi, in this series, have long been given importance disproportionate to their actual powers.

Declaring that Luke "shouldn't" be terrified of the potential of one powerful Force user, in the face of far greater active threats, is an ostrich move. It ignores the tone and timbre of this series.

We've been told for decades that one Jedi can affect the entire galaxy. Whether that's true or not.

 

'its true all of it'

One Jedi helped bring down the Republic
One Jedi helped bring down the Empire


Ep7 opens with them looking for One Jedi.


I can't understand some of the internal head canons in this argument, I read ' I can't relate so I'm not going to' since when did films care about people 'relating' ? Why are people trying to reinvent 'Star Wars' ? It has always and will always be about The Force Jedi/Sith (Skywalkers) those are the paramount themes throughout.

Star Trek has Kirk, a certain Vulcan, Bones etc
Star Wars has Jedi /Sith and Skywalkers

it simply is

 

It's probably hard to understand when you're taking it so very seriously. Someone expressing a casual opinion doesn't warrant all of this discussion over the merits of the opinion. Good grief. Opinions aren't "head canon." They're just preferences. Fiction is absolutely about being relatable to its audience, lol. I mean, in answer to your question, since forever. Having an opinion =/= reinventing Star Wars. It's just a thought, a feeling, about an approach to a story. We all have them. It's why we're here.

 

really? we;re all on a forum talking about a fictional universe and you have the gall to say I need to stop taking things seriously? um did you read the last 3 pages full of your posts? Or were those all 'fun' ? horrible argument, come better.


we had pages and pages of people arguing the Star Wars 'Family' theme because of their 'personal opinions' which is fine and dandy but we had people-including myself- posting direct quotes from everyone and still personal head canon's were prevailing!

 

Well it's hard for me to understand why you "can't understand some of the internal head canons" in response to someone simply expressing an opinion. That to me sounds like taking an opinion a little too seriously. If I misinterpreted how you are taking other people expressing themselves, my bad.

Yeah, the last 3 pages were me explaining where I'm coming from because I enjoy hashing these things out. When it gets nasty and too serious, I don't enjoy it anymore. I don't think the simple expression of, "if the ambiguous scene in the trailer means X, it seems weird to me, but if it means Y, I get it more," warrants all of these conclusory statements about declarations being made or how wrong a person is. I don't approach other people's opinions that way, and I think it's silly when people do that. This is a public forum to discuss different viewpoints. I'm not here to tell you your viewpoint is incorrect and I just can't possibly comprehend how you could be so arrogant to have an opinion!!1!

My "personal head canon" (read: my opinion) isn't changed by you telling me that your quotes prove me wrong. Clearly I disagree, despite your quotes. Try not to let it get to you.

 

Even if Luke is talking about Kylo and Rey when he says that 'I've seen this raw strength only once before. It didn't scare me enough then. It does now." the context seems to be very different then what a lot of the posters seem to be saying her. From the various TV spots and trailers we can actually piece together the chain of events of that scene... and it dramatically changes the context of that line.

Luke leads Rey into a meditation exercise...
Luke - "Breathe. Just breathe. Now reach out. What do you see?"
Rey - "Light. Darkness. A balance."
Luke - "It's so much bigger."
Rey - "And something else. It's calling me."
Luke - "Resist it Rey."
The ground shatters behind Rey. Rocks start to levitate around her. Luke scrambles around in front of her.
Luke - "REY!"
Rey snaps out of the meditation with a gasp and topples forward onto the rocks.
Then Luke says his line 'I've seen this raw strength only once before. It didn't scare me enough then. It does now." before walking away.

Is Rey the power source... is the rocks and things from her fighting to resist the call or is it the one calling her?

 

AhsokaSolo "Having an opposing viewpoint to yours" is not the same thing as "taking things too seriously", which demonstrates (again, passive aggressively) the idea that those oppositions to your initial point take on some nefarious purpose...somehow you are light, and breezily discussing the topic, and all the sudden thunder and gloom take over when someone expresses a simple debate of that initial point. Opinion or not.

This is debate. To partake you should be willing to hear the other side out without using infantilizing terms like "semantics" "seriousness" and the claim that you should be able to drop your "opinion" into the thread and expect no one to confront it because it's only your opinion and not indicative of the topic discussion at hand, and everyone but you is SUPER serious (apparently).

And, just to point out, the little "lols" you throw into various paragraph's, while elucidating on "how to communicate with youTM" are quite telling.

 

You're still putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that having a different viewpoint is taking things too seriously. Why do you even want to engage with me? Debates are silly when all you're trying to do is reframe a person's point of view to make it easier to argue against.

You should also be willing to hear the other side. "Semantics" isn't an infantile term. I made a substantive point with it that you ignored. You have a habit of doing that.

Again, whether my use of "lol" has some impression on you is irrelevant to me. I already told you, I don't have a case. I am not here to persuade or tell people they are wrong. I'm also not taking things seriously in my posts. Sometimes I am amused by things people say, and since we are on a forum where we can't read expressions, I have come to communicate that in different ways. It's my way of lightening things because I don't take it so seriously. If you engage differently, cool. Agree to disagree.

 

Oh really? Here's proof:

I am, and I've debated you on those points, as have others. Hearing you don'ts mean I have to agree or disagree. It simply means I'm open to it without trying to dismiss it...which is what you've done a few times now.

You used it in an infantilizing way (AKA telling us that our side of it was "semantics").

Nope. I replied, a few times actually, some of them quite in depth...which you deemed "Monday Morning Quarterbacking"...but here we are.

No. And seeing as how I'm only 1 of about 3 or 4 that have replied to you thusly, who is the common denominator here, because it's not me.

Oh, I don't need you to understand it...I just wanted you aware how it makes you look in an adult discussion to say "Laughs our Loud". If you did that while discussing that with someone on a debate floor, you'd likely be told not to.

Indeed. Like I said, you're light and breezy and the rest of us are dour and introspective and brooding. My words....in case you thought I was putting some on your mouth.

 

Can we get back to the topic at hand please. No need for everyone to be mean because people see things differently then you do.

 

No, none of those quotes are proof, and not surprisingly not one singles out that having a different viewpoint = taking things too seriously. Interesting that you're chopping individual sentences out of context to try and disprove that you twist my words. Look, maybe just stop worrying about trying to convince me that what I think my own point is isn't really my point? You're not supposed to be discussing posters anyway, and it's like you've decided it's your job to analyze me.

No, you ignore my points in favor of trying to educate me on what you think I said. lol

I don't care if you agree or disagree. I'm the only one in this discussion that keeps making that point. I just continue to have my own opinions regardless of yours, just as I understand that you do the same.

No, arguing over whether Luke is afraid of Rey or Rey's power is semantics because I was the one that made the point and in my point, however you frame it doesn't change my point.

Ugh, this is tedious, I'm done. If you really want to continue nagging me about me, PM me. I'm quite confident most aren't interested.

 

I think I am right that the trailer suggests Luke is alarmed by the "raw strength" Rey is exhibiting, and that there is something unique about it that Luke has only seen once before.

In the trailer, Rey cracks a mountain while Force meditating. It shows Luke's face and he looks alarmed. Then Luke talks about how he has seen this raw strength only once before (this is again right after Rey's demonstration of her mountain-cracking power). Luke says he didn't fear it enough then but does now - VO to him falling before his destroyed temple. It doesn't tell us what the larger meaning is - it leaves us with questions. But I don't see how the trailer isn't making a suggestion that Rey has exhibited the raw strength that Luke has seen only once before given how the clips and Luke's statements are arranged.

And given that, it seems Rey isn't an "ordinary" Force-user.

As to what the "raw strength" is, I agree it doesn't tell us what that means exactly. But again, it does show Luke's reaction to Rey's powers in a way that suggests she is exhibiting this "raw strength."

The other TV spot adds even more questions since as Rey is meditating she detects something calling to her and is distressed by this. Luke however is way more distressed apparently and starts urging her to resist it. It may be her attempt to resist it that ends up cracking the mountain. Is it Snoke calling to her or something else? I don't know. But I think it's related definitely to what happened with Ben, as Luke's alarm about it seems (to me) like a knee jerk reaction that formed out of past experience with the same phenomenon. It's also possible that Luke believes he failed to help Ben resist or free himself of this call and therefore he cannot help Rey.

Snoke's VO in the trailer says, "When I first met you, I saw raw untamed power and beyond that, something truly special." This kind of seems to indicate that the "raw untamed power" or "raw strength" is something innate to the user. Snoke speaks of it in this covetous way (or that's how it came across to me) like he wants it or wants to use it for his ends.

--

A way Snoke could be the explanation for all of this:

The "raw strength" could be an averse reaction to Snoke's call/pull. Maybe a Force-user ends up having to concentrate all of her/his power trying to resist or expel Snoke, and as a result "accidents" occur such as cracking mountains or exploding things. And maybe somehow Snoke is connected to both Rey and Kylo and that is why they are connected to each other.

In this case what Luke fears would be more directly the connection to Snoke and how it can eventually overcome the victim--though in the meantime the victim causes all these "incidences" trying to psychically fight Snoke. The stronger with the Force the victim is, the more destructive the accidents/incidences. So Luke's observation would be that he's seen this averse reaction before, only once.

It seems Snoke can only do this to people he might be able to mold, generally younger people. If he could affect Luke or Leia like this, I imagine he already would have. Maybe it could be as simple as Snoke senses power (strong with the Force) and a mind that is still forming (so the power is "raw" or "untamed" as of yet). AS did say IIRC that Snoke preys on young people specifically.

This reminds me of the Force vampire Snoke ideas, but I think it would be more that he is a parasite in a more abstract sense in that he embeds himself psychically into others. So Rey and Kylo would be unique Force users in that they are "infected" with Snoke.

--

But I don't know. To me it still seems more likely that the raw untamed strength/power is something innate to the user (e.g. Rey and Kylo) and that Snoke is interested in it because he can use it to carry out his vision of things.

 

Enough of this bickering. Discuss the topic, NOT each other.

 

I still feel that they took parts of Abeloth of legends and added some of what she did to Snoke.

If some of you aren't familiar, she was an 'entity' in the old EU that started out as a servant of 'The Ones' she attained quazi-godhood but was imprisoned by The Father -you can look her up if you like, I enjoyed that arc- I'm actually listening to fate of the Jedi again now( bye Ben Skywalker and Vestara Khai), anyway, at some point the 'now' mature Jedi were hidden in an area close to Abeloths Prison, called the Maw during the war with the Vong, she was able to reach out to all the 'Shelter Jedi' and all except Ben Skywalker because as a child he innately closed himself to the force because of all the billions that were dying around him during the war with the Vong-love loved that arc! best Star Wars 'baddies' ever.


segway to Snoke, what if the wars-Clone, Empire vs Rebels, some how released a portion of his 'prison' and he then started to reach out to Ben Solo in the womb? Perhaps he reached out to the Knight of Ren as well? What if Rey did the same thing and closed herself off, now that she is 'awakened' Snoke can call to her?

 

isn't the "snoke/whatever influenced ben solo while still in the womb" thing debunked?

 

Not at this point. Right now we have Wedig's novel. Guess TLJ will answer this once and for all.

 

I never got the impression that snoke was going after a fetus in the aftermath books.

 

But many readers did. Don't have the book in front of me. there are a few passages about Leia feeling her unborn son's distress. There's also one where she recalls that Luke told her that the light casts a huge shadow, and something along the line of the darkness she senses may actually be a shadow from the light.

I'll look when I get home. But there is impressions that many took that the darkness she sensed and the distress that her son felt was Snoke on some prenatal level.

 

The only place i've even heard of the fetus attack, is on these boards. I read/listened to that and it felt as if kylo was reacting to leia's stress/the turmoil in the galaxy. I really hope they aren't going for the "old guy influences a fetus from across the galaxy".

 

When I read the third Aftermath book I did think they were saying that something dark was messing with baby Ben. It was a 'woah' moment, but since than we have been outright told that isn't true so I shrugged and moved on. I do think a slight issue with the books (which I read and enjoy) is that the writers are not always informed on the overall story the movies will take.

 

I like how you make that sound like it's so common it's cliche haha. Who hasn't seen a movie where an old evil wizard brainwashes a fetus?

 

Its the opposite. The idea is so insane to me. I can almost imagine the story group sitting down and talking about how an old wizard began brainwashing a human fetus.

 

I just don't believe in any dark source influencing infant Ben. I just think it was a kind of slowly radicalisation as you see it with a lot of terrorists. The fault lays at Ben/Kylo's shoulders alone (like feeling lonely) and in his dying breath, he may see the truth.

 

No brainwashing persay, but perhaps, say Vaders line had an innate draw to the darksode. The light side is stronger of course, what if Snoke simply tipped the odds in the Dark sides favor?