CT Luke and Rogue Squadron

From top to bottom: "Mom" A-Wing (not featured in final film), Red 3 (dubbed over with male voice, taken out early during the battle), the male A-Wing pilot who split up and head back for the surface.

Thane_Kyrell

No A-Wing piloted by a female left the Death Star. This would only leave the Y-Wing that followed the "male" A-Wing pilot, but I'm pretty certain that was Red 2 (and he was male, too).

I say certainty (90%) because Red 2 had

• managed to survive until this point in the battle and
• was in the vicinity of Wedge moments before the attack run commenced

RED TWO I'm on it, Gold Leader. (Y-Wing Cockpit, shoots down TIE fighter in subsequent VFX scene!)
WEDGE Good shot, Red Two.

In general it made absolutely no sense for ANY fighter to join Lando's group who would have lagged 30 seconds or longer behind. Because such fighters would have arrived in the Death Star reaction chamber the moment it started to blow (and just have enough time to see the Lando and Wedge leave the chamber).

P.S.

WOW! Just noticed something I didn't previously. Check out Red 3's right cheek helmet cover!

In color it's actually red and has three bars, a very strong but obvious allusion to the red markings of the X-Wings during the Battle of Yavin. What a beautiful attention to detail!

In contrast Green leader or "Mad Max" (according to Richard Edlund) cheek helmet covers reveal a white color with only two bars, I guess he used to be Green 2.

 

This bit about Red Two is a promising candidate for head canon. It is a troubling and amusing conflict that Gray Leader is also Red Two. I can devise my own retcons to manage it. (E.g., Gray Group is subordinate to, or reverts to, Red Group, for instance, if certain conditions transpire, and the battlefield certainly changes, such as the shield being up, Green Group going to a holding sector, and going into a primary mode of defending capital ships, etc.) But the beneficial impact is that Red Two already has three confirmed kills, and now puts himself at risk next in line to Red Seven. Red Seven expends himself providing cover, and Red Two is next up. Then in the nick of time Red Two peels off to head back to the surface with two A-Wings. If he reaches his demise it is not seen. (During my reading I saw that Green Leader was supposed to have gone into the DSII as well in some draft script.)

I don't know how this is useful, but Green Leader's helmet has two red bars Above a color block of red, whereas Red Three has three red bars Below a color block of red. It makes most sense to me that there was a Green Three, and there was a vacancy in Red Three, and so that pilot was transitioned over to Red Group for some ad hoc reason prior to the battle. But Red Two, in a Y-Wing, and with four gray bars, does not necessarily recommend that he was Gray Four, for there would have been three Gray Fours. (Unhappily, the bars that are clearly seen on each of the three Y-Wing pilot's helmets do not match up with call sign. Each of them has 4 dark gray bars.) And the older male A-Wing pilot has no bar markings I can see.

I have a good candidate for the pilot of the X-Wing that was taken out on approach to the Executor's bridge, just before Green Leader performed his final act, unless someone has extremely well founded reasons, and some appealing authoritative sources, to argue that that X-Wing pilot is already named.

(Was Green Leader's move a planned suicide run from before the battle, or was it extemporaneous?)

 

Hernalt

Many good observations, I love this. This is where the fun begins.

As I posted in another thread (I'm currently reading through a lot of old magazines trying to find more "breadcrumbs"), Ken Ralston stated / complained that Lucas showed up, discarded plenty of almost finished shots, and re-assembled shots that had already been finished in sequential order. One obvious example is the scene involving the ill-fated A-Wing Red Three and according to the ROJ novelization the sequence is approximately as follows:

WEDGE They're heading for the medical
frigate.

WEDGE Red Three, Red Two, pull in!

RED THREE Got it!

Red Three is shot down over the medical frigate (!!!) by the two TIE interceptors which themselves are shot down by the pursuing Y-Wing, apparently Red Two

WEDGE Good shot, Red Two.

Gray Squad

Based on the aforementioned chronology Wedge may have merely been congratulating an (unseen) Red Two, yet the scene was perhaps later combined with Gray Leader shooting down an interceptor.

Yet, there is an obvious, abstracted "2" on the left side of Gray Leader's helmet. If that's the one actually indicating Red Two, then it should be Red Two and Gray Leader was intended to be somebody else, perhaps the "There's too many of them" Asian Y-Wing pilot, because his helmet does not have an abstract number.

(two A-Wings entered the Death Star, but only one left. The second A-Wing either crashed into an interior component or was taken out by one of the TIEs, too, but we never saw one or the other)

Green Leader / Wing

Good catch. I overlooked this the first time. In contrast to Red Two Green Leader has the "squad color" on the bottom part of his helmet with two bars above.
But...according to all the images I googled, the color is not red but green as it should be (or is one us color-blind, hopefully not!).

The absence of markings on the other A-Wing helmets is probably due to practical production considerations. They had a "hero" helmet for Green Leader and Red Two but wanted to leave multiple uses of the blank helmet as an option (they ultimately never used).

I have a good candidate for the pilot of the X-Wing that was taken out on approach to the Executor's bridge, just before Green Leader performed his final act, unless someone has extremely well founded reasons, and some appealing authoritative sources, to argue that that X-Wing pilot is already named.

By all means, fire away. Your guess will be as good as the one of most EU contributors (but in your case I can clearly see you put earnest research efforts into your writings, I only wish that could be said of the bulk of EU contributors)

Was Green Leader's move a planned suicide run from before the battle, or was it extemporaneous?

Turn back one thread page, I provided the quotes from the Kahn novelization that IMHO merely suggested he was trying to help out with a few proton torpedoes.

 

My friend wondered if Lucas intended the colored "Groups" in ROJ to be synonymous with "squadrons".

Already the very early draft of ROJ from June 1981 (amazing how many original Lucas elements did survive until the end) made it clear, that he apparently and consciously used "Group" in the proper military sense, i.e. consisting of capital ships and fighter squadrons:

ADMIRAL ACKBAR
You have all been briefed on your targets. Green Group will attack the Death Stars…Red Group will attack Had Abbadon…Blue Group will attack the Imperial fleet, here and the planet’s surface, here and here. If the Empire is to fall, all of the objectives must be destroyed.

This was further emphasized by the extended ROJ novelization excerpt:

"Red Group! Gold Group! Blue Squad! All fighters follow me!"

It's obvious that (originally) Lando only called for the Blue Squadron fighters from the Blue "Group", but then why didn't he just call "Red Squadron" for example but instead addressed the group.
IMHO, the inevitable conclusion has to be that both Gold and Red Group contained more than just one fighter squadron.

While I think it's fair to assume that Red Squadron belonged to Red Group, Green Squadron to Green Group, and Blue Squadron to Blue Group, I'm not that certain anymore about Gray Squadron (because even in the earliest materials there is no mention of a "Gray Group").

Interestingly, there is a perfect explanation why the B-Wings from Blue Squadron didn't enter the Death Star in the reconstructed screenplay from December 1981:

WEDGE
Stay low until we get to the unfinished side.
BLUE TWO
Squadron of enemy fighters coming-
LANDO
Blue wing, take your group and draw the Tie Fighters away-
BLUE TWO
I’ll do what I can.
LANDO
I’m picking up interference… the Death Star’s jamming us.
GOLD LEADER
More fighters coming at ten o’clock.
LANDO
There’s the superstructure, watch for the main reactor shaft.

Apparently, prior to entering the Death Star, the B-Wings were ordered to distract TIE fighters by splitting up, once inside the Death Star Lando tried the same strategy again.

Obviously the only headscratcher here is a "Gold Leader" that's obviously not Lando. Perhaps it's a typo and the Y-Wing we saw enter the Death Star wasn't Red Two but Gray ("Gold") Leader instead?

 

A group is larger than a squadron and believe I read elsewhere that Lucas had some military advisors advise him of such for the movie.

A squadron is smaller. Corona Squadron as it is mentioned in the book Lost Stars consisted of 5 x-wing fighters.

So it could very well have been part of one of the other groups above mentioned. Same with yellow squadron.

 

I'm not aware that Lucas ever had such advisors, but would definitely like to find out.

Yes. With at least 4 known groups with a minimum of two squadrons each, there'd be a total of at least 8 squadrons, while film and novelization only mention 4 of these.

 

I was having another discussion in the anthology forum about director krennic from the new rogue one movie. I said his rank plaque looked like it should be a post ANH not a pre-ANH and the one poster said he read in a reference book that Lucas did have someone come in and design a whole rank structure for the empire and rebels. So I will try to include link later once I get on my computer.

 

Thane_Kyrell

Wasn't that poster me? Other than the two of us no one else seemed to be that interested.

 

Ah ok. It might have been. Sorry don't look at posters just the content looking for a good discussion.

 

I. Does the ROTJ novelization resolve A-Wings from Red Group? There is one shot in the sequence, *after Lando has said to draw fighters away from cruisers, and then *after Lando has warned about three incoming TIEs, and then *after Wedge has told Red Three and Red Two to pull in (which in the film are decidedly not X-Wings), and then *after Green Leader observed that (the previously mentioned?) three TIEs are coming in, and then *after Wedge says 'cut to the left, I'll take the leader', and then *after Wedge says, 'they're heading for the medical frigate'… that we see an A-Wing being pursued by TIEs towards a Nebulon B cruiser. Maybe Lucas felt the need to raise the stakes as soon as possible. And so he expedited this with a preliminary Rebel casualty excised from that sequence with Nebulon B + A-Wing + three TIEs. In the film the A-Wing gets away, the TIEs fly under the frigate, and the MF pursues and destroys them. Crisis averted. But for this segment of non-Endor, non-throne room battle, the stakes were raised early, which may enhance the peril that the Nebulon B faces, since we feel sympathy for and investment in it due to the ending of ESB.

II. Google as many images high quality images as you can of Green Leader and use extreme suspicion in differentiating the green hue of his flightsuit from the hue of the bars on his helmet. Then mentally subtract what you think is incorrect color timing for the overall scene in which Green Leader is placed. Closely compare the green intensities of Red Three's, "Copy, Gold Leader", and Green Leader's flight suits. Do the same with the red intensity of Red Three's helmet bars. You can also look at the color of Green Leader's bars when his head is turned to the side during the spin towards the Executor bridge. The color difference between bars and green collar of flight suit should pop out.

III. Your point on the abstracted "2" on Gray Leader's helmet is interesting. But had the production crew not already moved on to Aurebesh script in ROTJ? Perhaps it was only for the Imperials. English characters were certainly used in SW77 Death Star. There's a bit of writing on the opposite side of "There's too many of them" Y-Wing helmet, in red, and it is not the same shape as the "2" on Gray Leader. Supposedly the "There's too many of them" Y-Wing pilot is called Gray Two. The opposite side of the helmet of the "I'm hit" Y-Wing helmet does not appear to have a graphical number designation, but a barred flag in the shape of the New England Patriots logo (note also the starbird embellished into a bat on his chin). The following source would indicate that the "There's too many of them" Y-Wing helmet has a "JJ" on the side. (Not a numerical designation.) Maybe that's Aurebesh over the brow of each?
http://www.forum.rebellegion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=46257

IV. How do you claim that only one A-Wing survived the DSII? Wedge splits left and A-Wing "Copy, Gold Leader" splits right. In the very next shot, MF splits left after Wedge and the second A-Wing and the Y-Wing split right. Is there deleted material / script / draft / novelization that demonstrates that one of those A-Wings was destroyed? The film does not show it.

V. My nomination for the role of the Rebel pilot who was in the X-Wing that was destroyed while said X-Wing and Green Leader were approaching Executor's bridge is Dorovio Bold. To evaluate my nomination one should examine the very limited evidence that is available.

Some boilerplate:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dorovio_Bold

Some principled enthusiam:
http://starwarsaficionado.blogspot.com/2011/09/girl-power-jedis-female-fighter-pilots.html

She recited provoked lines, while in costume, in an X-Wing cockpit set that was being moved and lit.



She's been made into an action figure:
http://www.rebelscum.com/tlcEVORebelPilots1.asp

However, pay attention to claims that have been made based on this very small extent of the evidence. Then consider exactly what is happening in other behind the scenes footage and deleted footage with other costumed actors, in dressed sets, that are being moved and lit (And of course the two female A-Wing pilots pictured at the top of this page are included in this resource):


I will make no arguments until these resources are digested.

 

Some of these events are indeed out of order (as hinted by Ken Ralston and "confirmed" by the novelization). The one thing that's obvious (IMHO) is the close-up of Green Leader right after the only A-Wing in sight (Red Three) has been destroyed, I always found this edit to be somewhat odd and erratic. According to the novelization the correct chronology is something like this:

RED THREE Three of them coming in, twenty degrees! WEDGE Cut to the left! I'll take the leader!

Then there's plenty of (deleted) action involving Red Four and Six (no indication in novelization what kind of fighters). Next we get

WEDGE They're heading for the medical frigate.

And then we finally get the Wedge lines

WEDGE Red Three, Red Two, pull in!

followed by a

WEDGE
Good shooting, Red Two

Is this actually the

WEDGE Good shot, Red Two.

we saw later following a cockpit shot of Gray Leader, which originally was uncommented, yet Lucas felt he should create a context for it (so he added the earlier Red Two congratulation instead)?

I shall attempt a recreation of events with all the dialogue pieces according to the novelization, soon. The problem, however, is that some onscreen dialogue and VFX action (Falcon flying around the Rebel cruiser in hot pursuit of TIE interceptors) has no clear counterparts in the novelization at all.

I stand corrected. Watched my DVD in "Star Wars mode setting" of my player (i.e. with increased brightness to counter-effect the otherwise artificially darkened picture to cover travelling VFX mattes) on my front projection screen. Green Leader's helmet "rank stripes" and areas are indeed not green, yet what I saw is some kind of brown that still doesn't have the same red hue as Red Three.

I'm not enough familiar with Aurebesh to provide a constructive input. The abstracted "2" is readable, but then again it increasingly (see above at I.) looks that was intended Gray Leader all along and exlusively.

After the TIE fighter has crashed into the ducts, close-up examination of the next VFX composite shows that the Falcon is now trailed only by the Y-Wing and the X-Wing of "Red Seven" who gets shot down.
It would appear that the second A-Wing behind the Falcon has equally crashed (unseen) into some interior Death Star components, as it rather appears unlikely that it has been taken out by a pursuing TIE (the TIE fighters would then have needed to shoot past the X-Wing and the Y-Wing to get to that A-Wing!).

Interestingly, the ROJ radio drama suggests that the Y-Wing that joins the Death Star attack fighter group is Red Two. The only point where the radio drama strangely differs from the actual film is that Red Two is ordered to split up and head back to the surface, while in the film it's the older A-Wing pilot that acknowledges Lando's order and leads the couple (i.e. the Y-Wing follows the A-Wing back to the surface)

The test footage with "Mom" A-Wing, Red Three and the Sullustian and Mon Calamari B-Wing pilot was obviously intended for the deleted or unproduced scene of the attack on the Star Destroyer jamming the Rebels (Chapter 9 in the ROJ novelization) because it includes dialogue pieces exlusively there ("Start attack run on the main power trees"). Yet it's pretty raw and unedited, suggesting that the actual scene was - sadly - never realized.

The X-Wing flying with Green Leader during his attack on the Super Star Destroyer was taken out rather swift and instantly, which doesn't appear to match the problems the female X-Wing pilot ("Dorovio Bold") had with her stabilizer prior to her apparent demise.

At first I thought she might have been a candidate for the deleted attack run on the Star Destroyer jamming communications, but

1. Her lack of corresponding dalogue (compared to the matching Chapter Nine dialogue in the aforementioned test footage)
2. The fact that her footage seems to have been edited / finished to a point, where it could have been included in the almost finished film, add to this her stabilizer problems

strongly suggests that it was her who blew up first, after her and the African American X-Wing pilot had taken out the "power tree" of one of the Star Destroyers, i.e. her part probably originally preceeded that scene (and the X-Wing we see blowing up was probably hers):

The control tower of a Star Destroyer is under attack.

REBEL PILOT She's gonna blow!

 

I. Yeah, that cut to Green Leader is abundantly suggestive that Green Leader is Red Two. Does the novelization mention B-Wings and A-wings specifically? (X- and Y-Wings?) I will have to dig out my ROTJ novelization and see the jamming ISD. Some internet commenters seem to believe this ISD has a vestigial showing in the movie when Home One is sliding left overhead with the ISD bridge in the middle ground. Other internet commenters have that it receives a vestigial showing in the shield generator that Red Five gets taken out by.

Also, I read one source that shows script for scenes on Home One. I cannot be certain they were actually shot. I do not know if they relate to efforts against the jamming ISD.
http://swnz.dr-maul.com/moretext.php?request=bio_GHome_03#.V1S4jtcQM7B

Of course footage of Crix Madine commanding his own ship is at the end of the Lost Rebels reel. The clip I would really love to see is where he achieves some kind of rousing victory and loses his stoic composure - a complement to Ackbar's slump of deliverance. The image makes me think there was a specialness to what lines were being said, and I would love to think it attached to some yet other part of the Endor battle we haven't heard of. There certainly were additional Mon Cal cruisers of the Home One model, i.e, giving rise to the same bridge design as Ackbar.
http://www.starwarz.com/tbone/the-battle-above-endor/

Now as to lines read by costumed actors in lit and buffeted sets. The unused footage of each of the speaking female pilots, and the two B-Wing pilots (a Mon Calamari and a Sallustan) who wear green A-Wing suits, appears to be from the same sheet except for one exception (Red Four) that you have hit upon. The following is the full list of lines (in a David Letterman countdown format that was necessary for collation).

26. "Green Leader standing by."
25. "Three of them coming in. 30 degrees."
24. "I'm on it, Red Leader."
23. "There's too many of them!
22. "You're taking a lot of fire! Back off!"
21.5. "Red Four, watch out!"
21. "I'm hit!"
20. "It's your left power supply!"
19. "Got it."
18. "If you pick one up, watch it."
17. "My scope's negative. Where is he?"
16. "Red Six, a squad of fighters have broken through."
15. "We're starting our attack run on the main power tree."
14. "I copy. Moving into position."
13. "Stay clear of their front batteries."
12. "It's a heavy fire zone down there."
11. "I'm in range."
10. "Right with you."
9. "I'm losing power."
8. "Get clear. She's gonna blow!"
7. "I'm on the leader."
6. "Stay away from those side guns."
5. "Heavy fire. I see it. Look out."
4. "Pull up! Pull up!"
3. "Stay close to the ground."
2. "Firing proton torpedoes."
1. "I've lost my main stabilizer. I can't pull out."

A number of these lines were in fact used by costumed actors in lit and buffeted sets and a smaller number also received green screen in post production. So it doesn't seem to me this list of lines was designed specifically for a particular segment of the battle where B-Wings and A-Wings go after a jamming ISD. I think that it includes a specific handful of lines for that express purpose, as you have pointed out. But the balance of the lines are generalized, generic, to be used as inserts, character portrait, chatter, tension-building, tone-setting, and other means of human investment in the FX. I also wager that each sequence of lines as it was read was shot by a closeup camera that excluded from the frame any substantial views out the cockpit set windows, and, a less closeup camera that allowed enough cockpit set windows to see through to the blue screen. So they had, I suspect, every line above recited by every costumed pilot actor, in two frames, one for the cheaper shot of no blue sceren, one for the more expensive shot of yes blue screen. And then they went back for pyrotechnic shots once they figured out who could do the best work or emote the most with any specific line. Of all the pilots that have speaking parts that are not Wedge, Lando or Nien Nunb, their lines or extremely close variations come off this list. Line #23 and a variation on #24 were not used while going against an ISD. Line #21 was certainly used approaching an ISD, and #8 was certainly used while combating an ISD. I tracked Wedge's shots and he actually has a cadence: 1 middle shot with nice blue screen, 2 close up shots with just black background, repeat.

The female pilot that plays Red Three has received the proposed name, Sila Kott. The actress' name is Poppy Hands [sic]. She has a Hasbro action figure that uses the call sign Red Two from the Annotated Screenplay. That's not surprising, as certain properties of a movie character would get lost in translation to a Kenner action figure. It's a missed opportunity to properly source the higher canon, for a character of such rarity, such underrepresented demographic. I think I mentioned up somewhere that there is a female B-Wing pilot in the briefing and another brunette X-Wing pilot at the briefing that is not Dorovio Bold. The other X-Wing pilot has received the proposed name, Karie Neth. Her proposed role was to have been the Y-Wing gunner of the TTMOT pilot. Sometimes a proposed back story comes very close to daft, and sometimes it comes less close to daft. Such a configuration as having X-Wing pilots be reassigned ad hoc into being Y-Wing gunners is something I would not have thought up myself. It sets up interesting questions and implications. Furthermore, respecting Sila Kott, Line #19, "Got it", is said by "Mom" in its proper sequence, but is missing in the sequence for Sila Kott. You'll see cut marks at this point in the black and white copy of the colored daily. That likely means the desired line in the colored daily was excised and spliced into the final film. And then the color daily was re-spliced together for storage and a copy was made. This B&W copy of that daily records the *absence of that *one line. (Which was subsequently overdubbed by a male voice.) Line #21.5 is spoken solely by Sila Kott. This is an inference based on the extent of deleted / unused footage provided in comparison to the consistency and extent of the entire list. This line "Red Four, watch out!" very much makes it look like her line, "Got it", could have been used with other A-Wing footage later in. For line #26, It makes complete sense that "Green Leader" would not have been said by the B-Wing pilots or the X-Wing pilot, Dorovio Bold. But consider for a second that Poppy Hands *did record that line - that Green Leader could have been a female - and the "Mom" A-Wing pilot probably did also. Consider what that would mean having this Green Leader, and not the other, do what was done with respect to the Executor.

II. I'm posting two images to show how to look for the presence of the second A-Wing. The first way is to just see that the second A-Wing goes into the split tunnel and is followed by the Y-Wing. But you can see right there that the A-Wing is half the width of the Y-Wing from engine to engine. And so, in the shot you speak of right after the regular TIE collisions (which raises a whole other topic - what are the relative maneuverability of the TIE vs TIE Interceptor, when I was taught on my mother's knee that TIEs were supposedly more maneuverable than any Rebel craft, and then we see both TIEs and Interceptors crashing left and right, except here we see a slight advantage to the Interceptors…gah this rich data set is fractally eruptive…) you can look for the single point of light of an A-wing engine, and spatially resolve it and chromatically differentiate it from the other engines. A-Wing in green arrows, Y-Wing in yellow, X-Wing in red.

(...........Ok, so we cannot upload images to this site......?)

III. I had a quick fix for the Gray Leader Red Two problem. Basically, just have Gray Leader be newly assigned to that role, after having been Red Two under Wedge for some indeterminate time. Wedge is so accustomed to calling this particular pilot Red Two, that Wedge does not remember to, or think to, or decide to, stick with the Gray Leader designation that Red Two has earned. Possibly that is because the battlefield conditions have changed, Lando is correct that they will never get another chance at this, and if Wedge is going to have anything to say about it, he will do what has to be done under these emergent conditions. SO. When Lando said all wings report in, that was before the 'trap' was discovered, and that was when Gray Leader was truly Gray Leader. Once the complexion of battle changed, Wedge took a lead and addressed Gray Leader as Red Two. It would be somewhat of a patronizing move, and so would congratulating Red Two on a good shot, when Red Two had in fact been already qualified to rank as Gray Leader, and had better be a good shot.

The following was interesting reading that gives an approach to a Wedge character arc. The comments are helpfully mindful and reminding. But as a generality, I can see Wedge having this thing to live down after the Battle of Yavin, and possibly having something analogous to a life debt to Luke. As mildly as that can be dialed, it provides me with a good deal of emotional gravitas concerning the attention with which the medical frigate is singled out during the footage. It, the ship, stands as the Roman standard of Luke in absence. It ties both Lando and Wedge to the events of the second act of ESB, and to the themes, just a subset of all themes struck upon in Star Wars, of loyalty in friendship, and risk in that loyalty. (One can pick that scab further and find a strong halyard of hemp stretching from Tochi Station through Dagobah to the Emperor threatening Luke with destroying his friends on the moon via Jerjerrod's finger on the technological terror. What a halyard it is.)

"Sorry": The Wedge Antilles Problem
http://www.starwarsreport.com/2015/01/27/sorry-the-wedge-antilles-problem/

IV. I am still trying to place Sila Kott's one scene into a context that gives meaning. It's an ongoing process and I may not ultimately find a satisfactory explanation for how she is introduced so quickly, given the appearance of a competent, professional calm (the dub becomes irksome the more I watch it) and then is exited stage left so quickly, as if there is something to be gleaned there that is not obvious. The question is: Was she doing her duty knowingly and professionally, and was she thereby taking a grenade, as it were, in direct obedience to an order that Red Leader had given? I do not know the shape of any answer as yet. I know the shape of a very specific question however: What is entailed in Gold Leader's order to 'Draw fire away' from the cruisers?

"Drawing fire away" should have a distribution of meaning. The cruisers obviously many times get struck by fighter fire which disappears, so that means in general that the cruisers have absorbent shields. In another scene, the cruisers get hit by SSD fire which causes explosions but doesn't structurally change the ship. So shields exist, and shields are strong, but nothing is infinite, and that should include, I guess, the energy or power or other operating (thermal?) conditions going into shield generators. Since the ISDs can be targeted at their weak points, say, the bridge or the shield generators, it must be that the Rebel cruisers can be so targeted. So that is the primary danger that Lando wants to fighters to intercept. I can arrive at this from first principles. But how does the scene with Sila Kott work into that regime of priorities? She is flying over a Liberty class vessel. Her orders are to draw fire away from the cruisers. We know retrospectively that the DSII has a magnitude of firepower that can the cruisers cannot repel. So, *until that is known, it seems that there is a calculus in play that the cruisers are to be protected at 'all reasonable costs'. That necessarily has to mean that individual fighters fall under that reasonable cost under certain circumstances. So what was it about that Liberty-class vessel that Sila Kott was flying over that tipped the scales and made it imperative enough that she would take a bullet? This of course is a thought exercise. Maybe she thought her rear deflectors would hold. Maybe it was by arrangement that she would be bait so that Red Two could perfectly target those two Interceptors. Was she a novice pilot and didn't recognize what was about to happen when she obeyed this order from Red Leader? In the general spirit of affirmative complexion with which I approach the dataset of female combat pilots in >1983< ROTJ, I prefer to think that Sila Kott knew exactly what she was doing, and knew that the stakes had changed, and knew that someone had to fall on a grenade, right then and right there, and she said "Got it."

 

Hernalt

You provided a lot of food for thought, wonderful. Now, first things, first. IIRC, you can only upload images from websites, not your own documents and pictures unless you put these on a website and link to it. Based on which PC I use to come here I can either put images in the text, but usually just on top of the post (as today, please notice the Hoth gear of Madine's "copilot").

I.
I don't think that's the right approach. What we have been served as ROJ "screenplay" in all its various incarnations, is IMHO just a transcript (of the finished dialogue) with original screenplay headings / descriptions. Apparently, the person (who wrote the transcript) concluded that since Red Two and Red Three were mentioned, the reactions had to be attributed to these pilots although it's crystal clear that Red Three in this transcript was actually Green Leader (except for bootlegs or special inhouse use there were no VHS recordings of ROJ, then).

The ROJ novelization does not indicate specific fighters, unfortunately.

Jamming Star Destroyer

Chapter 9 of the ROJ novelization features the attack on the Empire's "main communications ship", one of the "larger destroyers". Once it was taken out, the fleet was able to determine whether the deflector shield protecting the Death Star was still up or down.
The assumption that the short close-up scene of the large VFX conning Star Destroyer conning tower model (with the properly sized bridge windows, I should add) originally belonged to that scene is not without substance: The only other BTS picture we do have of that model showed VFX technicians setting up the shot with this model and with a B-Wing.
Since the B-Wings are (IMHO, correctly) attributed to this particular scene involving this conning tower model, it's a widespread assumption. But unless that was really the only scene making use of that conning tower model (with the correctly sized windows) next to the one standing in for the SSD (with much smaller bridge windows), it remains an assumption.

Lest I forget, here is Mark Johnson's screnplay re-creation attempt: http://starwarz.com/starkiller/revenge-of-the-jedi-expanded-script/
(my attempt to recreate the space battle will take this into account but with some deviations regarding chronological order).

General Madine

The ROJ novelization talked about a capital Rebel ship that was just about to explode but rammed itself into a Star Destroyer taking it with him. I had always thought that might have been General Madine and the picture (above), so I asked Dermot Crowley in 2002 about that scene / image but he didn't recall flying a kamikaze attack.
It has since been my impression, that the background footage during Ackbar's "concentrate all attack on that Super Star Destroyer" was originally an isolated scene, in which Madine's star cruiser took out that Imperial Star Destroyer that exploded and that the above image might have been a reaction to that. But that's just my theory.

Test footage quotes

Thanks a lot. You just eased some work for me. I'll need to get back to that, asap. Would appear that Red Three (actress Poppy Hands) got a few more lines before she was shut down (i.e. the first part are quotes of earlier, unseen scenes, while the later ones match the Chapter 9 events).

II.
So you are suggesting that the lead A-Wing (previously ahead of the MF) has already disappeared in the "red" tunnel and what we actually eye-witnessed was the A-Wing previously following the MF and the Y-Wing up next to it?
Considering that they are pursued by two TIE fighters and one TIE interceptor (3 TIEs) while the MF and Wedge are pursued by two TIE interceptors, that would make sense (i.e. one TIE fighter for every Rebel fighter / ship).

III.
That remains a tough nut to crack, IMHO. According to the original screenplay / ROJ novelization the fighters reported after they had realized the Death Star shield was still intact and Gray Leader was taken out before he could report (apparently by an incoming TIE fighter).
It could appear that they had already shot footage with Red Two (Y-Wing) but then realized they still needed a Gray Leader and used Red Two for it. But I think it's more likely that Wedge's congratulation "Good shot Red Two" was meant for the Y-Wing that obliterated the two interceptors that had previously killed Red Three.
The way it's edited in the final film, suggests that Wedge is congratulating the pilot we just saw (Gray Leader), but theoretically he could have also referred to another event, unseen on screen.
While I'm all for rationalizations, at this stage still my prime interest is the actual, original battle chronology before Lucas applied the changes and his "scene mix".

IV.
I still would like to see a transcript of the female X-Wing pilot's lines first. I find your theory most interesting, but first I'd like to see whether she has any lines that could be connected to one or another unseen scene in the novelization and/or re-constructed screenplay.

 

I'll get back to some longer points in a day or two.

I've just now downloaded the ROTJ script and am reading it closely. Only now, at the end, do I see the match between the lines being read in the Lost Rebels reel and the script. So yeah, I agree it *sounds like the Lost Rebels candidates and Vivienne Chandler were being considered primarily for that action scene. I'll have to think about that in the light that Poppy Hands and "mom" were suited up for the "Green" lines, and Vivienne Chandler was suited up for the "Red" lines, and the Sallustan and Mon Calamari were in the correct cockpit for "Blue" lines. Very interesting, now that I see it starkly.

Do you have a theory for how Green Leader apparently dies while taking out the jamming ship, but then shows up again to do the DSII run.

And Blue Leader did not answer call in. I wonder if he's special.

Who was Gray Group supposed to be in the script? A color mashup of X, Y, A, B?

 

Hernalt

Take your time. I'm making good progress on writing an essay about the space battle elements, but still need to insert novel scenes (in a screenplay like fashion) and catch up on some reading in the Making of ROJ books to deliver the precise frame in time when that raw cockpit footage was shot, hopefully. I think this will be suitable material for an independent thread in the OT / CT section, inviting some of the JCF "specialists"/"historians" to add whatever additional information these might have.

All the ROJ "sripts" you'll find online are basically re-incarnations of the transcript first featured in The Art of Return of the Jedi, and will therefore only reflect the final edit and dialogue. No genuine copy of the actual screenplay from December 1981 is available online!
Yet, one of my friends and long time collectors who does have an actual copy of the (typewritten) screenplay from December 1981 looked into the issue. I provided him with the scenes in the ROJ novelization (featuring Red 4 and 6) and the deleted scene of the Blue Squadron attack on the jamming Star Destroyer. He wrote me back that these are NOT in the 1981 screenplay version.

As it looks, and based on the "additional scenes" screenplay sheets, most battle scenes were created / added and shot in early 1982, but some of them were ultimately discarded. Kahn's novelization is therefore the only source that reflects these "additional" screenplay sheets in what appears to be a chronological order and he was "kind" enough not to fix obvious errors.

In the deleted "Blue Squadron" scene Green Leader dies crashing into the front batteries of a Star Destroyer, but that entire scene was obviously discarded at an early stage and instead he died taking out the bridge of the "super Star Destroyer" (i.e. he died twice in the novelization)
Yet the visual element of a rebel fighter "crashing into the front batteries" was obviously kept and then realized with a Y-Wing doing that instead (and in the final film), suggesting this scene was added later.

I agree it *sounds like the Lost Rebels candidates and Vivienne Chandler were being considered primarily for that action scene. I'll have to think about that in the light that Poppy Hands and "mom" were suited up for the "Green" lines, and Vivienne Chandler was suited up for the "Red" lines, and the Sallustan and Mon Calamari were in the correct cockpit for "Blue" lines.

I concur. The order and dialogue of this raw stock footage suggests a sequental line of three blocks:

1. dialogue suited for Red Three / Poppy Hands in the scenes revolving around Red 4 and 6 before her death (which would have resonated better with the audience had we seen her previous, but ultimately deleted actions)
2. dialogue suited for the attack on the jamming Star Destroyer, alternating between Green Leader (originally "Mom" A-Wing?) and Blue Leader (originally Sullustian?)
3. dialogue suited for "Dorovia Bold" / Vivienne Chandler in a later scene, footage suggesting last stages of finalization wth plenty of cockpit rocking etc.

The way it looks to me, Lucas discarded the material of the "Red 4 and 6" sequence plus the "jamming Star Destroyer" at an early stage, then realized he needed more material and shot the scenes featuring Vivienne Chandler and others last, yet for some reason, these additional senes did not reach the hands of James Kahn and therefore didn't make it into the novelization.

 

Lt. Hija
There's too many of them topics to address while I have a project provoking me most, an origin of the species expedition through each frame concerning the order of Mon Cal cruisers. Trying to track their migration patterns and interactions with the greater ecosystem. This might? shake out some new possibilities on the logistics and constraints of filming. Till that's done.

Just one comment on this: It seems to me that Blue Leader ought to reflect the hierarchy established with Ackbar, that Blue Leader is the Calamari, but that is based on a known bias I believe from the days of WEG, that the Mon Calamari were responsible for or were designers of the B-Wing. If there was no canonical source to that idea, i.e., it was only WEG having a go, then that resonance with hierarchy is unnecessary. It would leave Blue Two as the Sallustan. B-Wing is of the scale of the Falcon, and the Falcon managed to get through the DSII infrastructure. A poetic inversion to above hierarchy is readily available by having the Sallustan be Blue Leader and the Calamari be Blue Two.

 

Rebels continues the theme - the Mon Calamari designer, Quarrie (a nod to McQuarrie) has his own episode.

 

Hernalt

I'm making good progress using both The Making of ROJ books. As you may have noticed I have allergic reactions to WEG conjecture and the way it found into EU mainstream, this is just one of those things, i.e. the Mon Calamari brought all the Rebel Star Cruisers plus the B-Wings to the table and the Sullustans - nothing.

Fact is that in the briefing scene we only saw Sullustian B-Wing pilots and all the pictures we got in all these years were Sullustans in red and white B-Wing flight suits. Conclusion?



And regarding the Rebel Star Cruisers there are noticable design differences between the Mon Calamari Headquarters Frigate and the other two Star Cruisers. Like the Rebel transport ships the Mon Cal Star Cruiser has exterior pods, reminiscent of remoras and a clear indication of a maritime design, IMHO.

The winged Star Cruisers like the Liberty (and the one without wings) don't have these design characteristics and the strongest reaction we got to the destruction of the Liberty came from...a Sullustan.

 

The Liberty is covered in bulges - it's clear it shares design cues with the Home One type ship:

i'm pretty sure you can find material (The Making of RoTJ? Cinefex? From Star Wars To Indiana Jones?) that makes it clear that, even at the time, Liberty-type ships were intended to be Mon Cal.

 

That both alien races would share some common technology (Tibanna gas bulbs for atmospheric flight?) because it has proven effective, doesn't automatically imply they belong to only one species. There are no exterior vehicles or pods on the Liberty, yet these are a defining feature of the Headquarters Frigate.

Add to this that the Headquarters Frigate has two large hangars that open to the port and starboard side, while the winged Rebel Star Cruiser only appears to have fighter launch tubes in its wings "looking" back.

I've researched this thoroughly in many publications and I can most assuredly tell you, that all "pre-WEG" materials referred to Ackbar's ship as the Headquarters Frigate and the others (e.g. Liberty) as "Rebel Star Cruisers".

The original The Art of Return of the Jedi featured the two images you provided but obviously mixed these up, i.e. Liberty is labelled "Headquarters Frigate" while Ackbar's ship is labelled "Rebel Cruiser".



Notice it say "The Rebel cruisers" and not "The Mon Calamari cruisers"

 

Considering that Rebel Transports also have "pods" and yet have never been portrayed as Mon Cal (probably because of the lack of bulges on the smooth top surface) I would say that they may be a red herring when it comes to "identifying a Mon Cal ship".

Which seems to me a little arbitrary.

 

I saw on the delted scenes on the Blu-RaY where they shot some shots of Madine taking Ackbar's place on Home One incase the puppet of Ackbar didn't work correctly.

That is what that pictures might be from and why it was all scrapped because it was not needed.


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Crix_Madine

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Endor

The above article makes no mention of a Cruiser ramming a Star Destroyer nor of him dying.

 

B-Wings...

http://www.starwarz.com/tbone/the-battle-above-endor/

Check this resource (it's a forum dedicated to building quality Rebel pilot costumes) to see pre-production continuity photography for Ten Nunb. Notice Ten Nunb's aged white features.
http://www.forum.rebellegion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45114

Check this resource (this is a forum tracking action figures)to see Hasbro's 1999 release of Ten Nunb in corresponding white flight suit.
http://jedibusiness.com/figureDetails.aspx?id=1285

Check this to calibrate Mike Quinn's insight and authority.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Quinn_(puppeteer)

So if Mike Quinn is reliable, and if he knew the difference between the Ten Nunb and the Nien Nunb costumes, then this means that there is still footage somewhere in the archives for Ten Nunb in a white flight suit in the B-Wing cockpit. It is not immediately apparent to me how to square or dovetail what Quinn is saying with respect to Ten Nunb's lines against the Lost Rebels reel and Vivienne Chandler reel, an analysis of which indicates that the actors *did have a scripted dialogue to be prompted with and recited. And as Lt. Hija noted first, there is a fairly blatant resemblance between the Lost Rebels script and the lines in the ROTJ transcript. So then, how does B-Wing footage of a white flightsuit Ten Nunb fit into that picture? My first guess would be that since we know the white flightsuit was changed to a red flight suit, and since it can be said that the five pilots who gave readings were in a sort of factory assembly line mode, that Ten Nunb's lines must have been read verrrry early in the process. Perhaps before a sharp notion of the role of the B-Wings in a battle against a jamming ISD had been formed. (Don't know when the novelization came out with respect to shooting schedule.)

If all that is sensibly squared away for now, the younger-faced Sallustan in B-wing flightsuit in the briefing room standing next to Lando can be looked at without fear of confusing Ten Nunb and Nein Nunb. So first the obvious convenience is that someone that *looks like Nein Nunb is standing next to Lando. And various sources of a click-bait canonicity will cheerily say the first obvious thing that comes to mind, that Nein Nunb is the Sallustan in the B-Wing. And so the fact that it is a deleted scene justifies that it is Nein Nunb in that scene, and so, there is no loss of continuity.

Now check out this resource and go down to Mike Quinn. Visually compare the color temperatures and/or green levels of the red jacket that the Sallustan in the briefing is wearing, the brown leather(WWII-esque?) helmet liner and the face against those of Nein Nunb. The black vest is one Nein and not the other. The gray flight suit padding and black straps are not on Nein but are on the other. If you are able to, make a determination that they are Not the same red jacket, brown helmet liner, and actuated prosthetic puppet head/face.
http://www.aveleyman.com/FilmCredit.aspx?FilmID=15886

If you *can make that aforementioned determination, that requires that it is *not Nein Nunb standing right beside Lando.
If you *cannot make that determination, then it *can be Nein Numb standing next to Lando.

And now consider the entirely different composition of elements in the Lost Rebels reel. A Sallustan in a green A-Wing flight suit, wearing the brown leather B-Wing helmet liner, the B-Wing helmet itself, and in a B-Wing cockpit set, reading scripted lines.

Two possibilities, at least, present themselves.

First possibility: Nein Nunb was in fact standing next to Lando in the briefing. Any number of retcons can easily accommodate this and amplify the total overall battle of Endor experience. Just for example, Nein Nunb is most certainly a B-Wing pilot and indeed just recently landed his B-Wing in Home One's hangar and huffed it up to the briefing. Then he stows Only the gray vest padding and black straps and then goes and takes the Falcon's copilot console. Nein Nunb is needed in the MF cockpit because Lucas says so. I don't need to peer beneath that movie logic. The B-Wing that is assigned to Nein Numb is then reassigned to another qualified B-Wing pilot, and at the end of the day we see Nein Numb's B-Wing being flown out ahead of the fleet. Story expanded. Canonicity of source elements is conserved. Other user-friendly retcons exist.

Second possibility: It is *not Nein Nunb standing next to Lando at the briefing, it is a Sallustan B-Wing pilot who came in on a B-Wing, or suited up right before, and either knows Nein Numb or does not. But it would be hard to imagine that this non-Nein-Nunb, this anonymous-Nein-Nunb number, would *not know Nein Nunb. I propose, solely in the spirit of conserving canonicity of source elements, that such a non-Nein-Numb be named Acht Nunb.

SO. Given the two previous possibilities for rehabilitating the otherwise apparent contradiction of Nein Nunb being in a B-Wing suit and B-Wing helmet liner and then later the copilot console, what can be made of the Lost Rebels footage that conserves / preserves / rehabilitates its canonicity? Well, call him Seiben Nunb or Sept Nunb or some variation. Until the qualified name practitioners make a determination. So, Maybe, Seiben Nunb *was in Green Group, and *was an A-Wing pilot, and *was wearing an A-Wing helmet until he got to Home One. And then he got reassigned, for whatever reason, and most reasons seem good at the time, and he was given a B-Wing helmet and B-Wing helmet liner, but he did not have time to change actual flight suits.

Here is a model of a B-Wing cockpit.

http://stash-magazine.com/galleries...-and-vehicles-in-the-original-1977-star-wars/

Anyone that traded in General Mills proofs of purchase (to get Anakin, I think) in 1984 might get a letter in the mail with this high color quality image (and then also a letter inside signed by "Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight"). In the spirit of conserving, preserving, rehabilitating, leveraging the canonicity of canonical-era resources, this image needs a backstory that stitches up with other known elements like the Lost Rebels, transcript scene with Blue Group, and any other gorgeous promotional B-Wing materials. I have been doing some careful frame by frame analysis of the space battle of Endor, and it looks to me that the ISD that is shown blowing up behind the SSD is actually being hit with red bolts from the Mon Calamari cruiser immediately in front of it. Accounting for any trajectories of X-Wings or TIEs in the area, it looks only like the ISD fires green lances at the Mon Cal cruiser, the Mon Cal fires red at the ISD, and the ISD explodes directly after. This sequence of frames matches the promise, at a great distance, of Lando's call to confront the ISDs at point blank range. Examine this for yourself. The result of this is that explosion of that ISD cannot be the result, presumably, of the spirit of this image below, where the achievement belongs to the B-Wings alone. Furthermore, since the Mon Cal cruiser is not a Home One type, it is not, as far as we'll know, the type of cruiser that will have the control bridge that looks like Ackbar's, and by extension, Crix Madine. And so, by elimination, the ISD shown blowing up by behind the SSD does not stitch up with the footage of Crix Madine. But examine the frames for yourself. Crix Madine yet needs a story transport, or port, that canonical unused content into a more comprehensive battle of Endor experience.

 

Like I said, that was merely a theory I had until I had the chance to talk to the actor, who didn't remember a kamikaze style ramming maneuver.

They have never been portrayed as Mon Cal, because the Mon Cal didn't exist by the time of the production of ESB. But check out the size comparison to an ISD in the above Sketchbook illustration, the stern section looks very similar to a Rebel transport ship. And the bulges seem to require a certain size of ship.

Great research on the B-Wing costumes.

Well, just yesterday I wondered why Luke (who was late!) didn't join the briefing in his X-Wing flightsuit. I think there is a big probability that the Sullustan who stood next to Wedge was Nien Nunb who had just arrived, too (still in his B-Wing flightsuit). He HAS to be present during this briefing.

Why is he on the Falcon? Fact: He only speaks Sullustan, but understands English. It's quite possible (perhaps an analogy to the Polish and Czech pilots that had joined the RAF in the Battle of Britain) that his job was to relay Lando's orders to the Sullustan pilots and other strategic input.

Fact: In March 1982 Billy Dee Williams' lines in the Falon cockpit were recorded in one single session. I'm pretty certan the same applied for various pilots, but thus far we've only seen footage of "Mom" A-Wing, Red Three ("Sila Kott") and both a Sullustan and a Mom Calamari plus the last part of this session with "Dorovia Bold" (Vivienne Chandler).

Hopefully, I have the first part of the essay ready by tomorrow, so just hang on back there...

 

Two points very easy to adopt. The first has a strong logic, the second has a defensible logic.

Nein Nunb really ought to have / had to be there at the briefing, to see the plan, see if there were late changes to the plan, and hear questions to the plan. It makes little sense for the Copilot of Gold Leader, who pulls the actual trigger that seals the DSII's fate, gets his update off of Lando's Facebook status while he's in Home One's Starbucks. Nein Numb really should be there at the briefing. This is logic I buy that I did not think up myself. Especially when amplifying the stakes with Lando's claim, "You'll never get another chance at this."

Depending on the above logic, there are then two Sallustan B-Wing pilots who are in B-Wings while Sallustan Nein Nunb is copiloting with Gold Leader. In my census of fighters there is never a shot with more than four B-Wings. Just using intended footage and character photography generated by ILM, the number of unique Sallustan B-Wing pilots compared to the number of B-Wings presented is 1:2. So the full number of B-Wings in a galaxy-glass guerilla force could have a complement of pilots not much different from a 1:2 ratio. *Could have... ergo, *Could be necessary. There is no way to *assert that Nein Nunb's translating capabilities were necessary because 'half the B-Wing squadron was Sallustan'. It raises an interesting demand for explanation, however. In my above post I said I do not need to peer beneath the movie magic that the creator placed Nien Nunb in the chair by fiat, so, I'll rest with that degree of resolution for now.

( Check this resource concerning the basis of the Sallustan language:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nien_Nunb
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Kipsang_Rotich
http://www.csmonitor.com/1983/0728/072823.html (Archived from July 28, 1983)

Another image to compare color temperatures and green levels;
)

I went snooping around for earlier / earliest content for the space battle. Check out this resource. I paged down and saw Madine saying some stuff about a Corellian fleet. I'm new to Star Wars archeology; it may have nothing of great value, and I'll have to peruse it later.

http://starwarz.com/starkiller/revenge-of-the-jedi-revised-rough-draft/
Revised Rough Draft: June 12, 1981

One other thing. In my research of who the hell is the individual responsible for designing the Mon Cal cruisers, I ran across this. Consider how one of these images has a resemblance to the concept of an ISD whose function is to jam the sensors of an incoming fleet.

http://www.gavinrothery.com/my-blog/2012/4/27/who-the-hell-is-colin-cantwell.html