Luke as the ulitmate hero, or Vader as the tragic hero, which one do you like?

After watching all 6 SW films 1-6, and then just watching 4-6 as that story, I began to understand why I love 4-6 much more as a story, and why I know I will never love the PT movies, and it has nothing to do with all the stuff here we argue about.

Putting aside all the quality issues everyone has with the movies, and all the debates we have, I think the fundamental issue of a SW fan watching the saga is, which heroes story do you enjoy more:

1. Anakin/Vader's Story = Tragic Hero (1-6)

2. Luke Story = Ultimate Hero (4-6)

Now neither answer is wrong, cause the OT stood on its own from '83-'99 without the PT, and nobody ever complained it seemed incomplete, they just wanted more SW.

For me, I love the story of Luke Skywalker (4-6), and after it is all said and done, I just don't gravitate to the story of Anakin/Vader (1-6). When watching ROTJ with either story in hand, it is a very different way when looked upon each individual story.

I guess for me personally, I just can't gravitate or really be compelled to follow the tragic hero, maybe it is my personality, maybe I just love movies that you can follow the good guy, who knows.

But in some ways, the saga 1-6 has nothing to do with quality, because being a fan of 4-6, I have always found problems with ROTJ, but I think I could have continued on with Lukes story cause I can relate to him more.

IMO

 

I'm not sure how closely you can compare them because they are so different. Personally I feel that because the OT is so well made and written I relate to Luke and enjoy his story more, even though we should technically be feeling more sympathy for Anakin.

 

Luke is the hero,

Anakin is the failed hero.

Lucas is the failed story teller because he lost sight of Anakin's failure and gave him a cop out, he was tricked into joining the dark side.

 

I prefer the story of the ultimate everyman becoming a hero to Anakin's story where he starts a hero, becomes a monster, and is redeemed in his last moments of life. Luke's journey is just so much more hopeful, optimistic, and idealistic that I prefer it.

 

Anakin, i'm a sucker for a tragic/Byronic hero.

 

I think we can say whatever we like. However, Luke will always be known as trying to bring his father back to the goodside. That was in the OT no matter how much one considers ANH and ESB to be their favs. In the end Anakin killed the Emperor when his son pleaded.

Consider me a sucker for the tragic hero as well

 

i want to clairify how i see it.

before the PT i saw anakin as the fallen hero who is redeemed by his son and in the end dies a hero.

this is a story i like.

i consider the tragic hero to be what he became in the pt.

not a hero who fell to the darkside but instead a whinny child who was tricked and is just another victim.

it diminishes vader, ruins his redemption and utlimately makes Anakin's story pathetic.

 

I don't se 1-6 as Anakin's story, I se it as Anakin AND Luke's story. The most interesting part is how their paths differ and how they are alike. But Luke is just as much the main character as Anakin IMO.

So I guess neither, or both perhaps.

BTw, I don't se Anakin as a whiny child who were tricked (well maybe the annoying brat of AOTC), I se a heavily flawed but in the end good person who was not really tricked, but one who used his better emotions (concern for Padmé) as an excuse to seek out the power that he wanted all along. And I have pittied Vader since I saw ESB anyway, so it makes little differance for me.

 

Yes, but turning a complete monster back to the good side is hardly a small accomplishment. Luke also proved that he was strong enough to resist the lure of the Dark Side, unlike his father.

 

I like a good tragic hero story, but I concur with others that Anakin's story didn't feel like a tragic hero story. Luke's story is good, but I agree that it is near impossible to compare the two.

 

I'm really quite curious, if Anakin's story didn't feel like a tragic hero story then what did it feel like?

To me i would say watching him in the PT is like watching a slow motion train wreck that was caught on film, after it happens.

As if you heard about it while you were at work, went home and saw it on the news.

we knew what would happen, but were captivated by watching it, there was no suspense or curiosity to it, just the question of how the pain would be delivered.

I am wondering what you and others think.

 

It felt like a tragic hero story for me, at least.

And while others found Anakin unlikeble, I think he did a lot in ROTS to prove courage and some maturity (at least in the presence of Obi-Wan). I found him a hero (if a very flawed one), and thus his fall all the more tragic.

 

I just never found the Anakin story compelling enough to really be that interested, and that is not a knock on Lucas. I just didn't love the character, just like I don't really care for Peter Parker in the same way I love the Clark Kent character as Superman. That is why I say nobody is wrong here.

Another way I may look at the saga after September 12th, is Lukes story with the O-OT as the main story, and ROTS as the prologue that answers every question that is left untold in the OT.

With watching it 3-6, the story is still about Luke, but you can still enjoy the most plot point filled prequel. After the OT, I had these burning question back in '83:

-What is the duel of lava with Vader vs Kenobi?
-What is the duel between The Emperor vs Yoda like?
-How does Darth Vader turn to the darkside?
-What are the Clone Wars?
-What is the fate of Anakins wife?
-What happens to the twins Luke & Leia?
-How do the Jedi get extinguished?
-How does the Empire take over?

All those questions are answered in Episode III, and that sort of sets up the real story for me, the story of the underdog good guys beating back the evil empire followed through Luke, Leia, and Han. If you look at it that way, the focus of the saga never changes, and TPM & AOTC are just EU stuff that give you more backround to what has happened, just like the Clone Wars Cartoons.

 

I know that I've slowly come to that same view though I consider all of the Prequels to be the Prologue.

I'll have to try watching the Saga like that, though losing Qui-Gon in the overall Saga would be unfortunate.

 

I agree, for me the "saga" is really just the OT, with ROTS as a nice prologue. I still enjoy TPM as its own stand-alone fantasy film, a sort of "knights of the old republic" type of thing but not as part of the saga. As you said, everything in the OT that has a history basically comes from ROTS, so its a nice set-up for the meat of the story which is the OT.

 

turning a complete monster back to the good side is hardly a small accomplishment

Are you sure Vader was a complete monster? Can complete monsters have ability to consider options like "maybe she'll be some use to us"? or say "he's just a boy"? Im not saying it wasn't a small feat, just that Luke understood the conflict in Vader more than say people like Obi Wan who believed Vader was "more machine than man"? Why did this monster say "its too late for me now"?

 

True, he may not have been a complete monster, but a monster none the less. For "Maybe she'll be some use to us?" Vader's twisted and evil, but he's still smart enough to know that destroying the Rebel base is a greater strategic move than merely killing a Princess. On "He's just a boy" I view it was Vader lying through his teeth to the Emperor so that he can try to convert Luke before the Emperor can get his hands on him so that he can overthrow him to gain power for himself.

I do think that small pieces of Anakin were starting to rise again in Vader after Empire and most directly at the end of RotJ, but for most of the OT he's still "twisted and evil."

 

I do think that small pieces of Anakin were starting to rise again in Vader after Empire and most directly at the end of RotJ, but for most of the OT he's still "twisted and evil."

Yes. However, I think its interesting that Vader was "obsessively" searching for Luke (as the opening crawl stated), yet is playing dumb when the Emperor checks on him. I think the word obsessive sounds a bit like Anakin doesn't it?

 

Oh, it does but given that he's looking for Luke to turn him into a Dark Lord of the Sith. I'm not saying that Anakin is a completely dead individual but, that all that was good in him had been gone until Empire when he realized that his son was alive. It's also fairly standard Sith operating procedure to always be looking for an individual to seduce and use to overthrow your Master with the Master always searching to replace the Apprentice.

 

I'm really quite curious, if Anakin's story didn't feel like a tragic hero story then what did it feel like?

The story of man with deep emotional issues who kept bad company (I include the Jedi and Padme in this), made some pretty bad choices.


With watching it 3-6, the story is still about Luke, but you can still enjoy the most plot point filled prequel. After the OT, I had these burning question back in '83:

-What is the duel between The Emperor vs Yoda like?

I never remember anyone wondering that pre-PT.


I agree, for me the "saga" is really just the OT, with ROTS as a nice prologue. I still enjoy TPM as its own stand-alone fantasy film, a sort of "knights of the old republic" type of thing but not as part of the saga. As you said, everything in the OT that has a history basically comes from ROTS, so its a nice set-up for the meat of the story which is the OT.

Where do you put AOTC in the whole mix?

 

I dont have much use for that film. It really only works if you watch it as prequel trilogy and as much as I try to do this AOTC inevitably kills it from working. If I start at the Tatooine scenes and watch onwards from there i can sometimes enjoy it though.

 

Does one really have to choose? When first watching the SW I loved Luke as the ultimate hero (though Vader was always my favourite) and watching all of the movies now I love Anakin as a tragic hero. But... if I have to go with one of these story arcs, I'll go with tragic hero Anakin. Fall and redemption is just more interesting to me than the classical hero's journey.

 

Not that I don't like Luke's story, I do. But after watching all the 6 movies countless of times, I see it as one Saga, the fall and rise of Anakin Skywalker. But the part that Luke plays in that is very great.

If you're more an OT lover, then I suppose you could consider this more Luke's story. But I like the PT as much as OT and I agree that the PT has a lot more of Anakins story than in the OT.

 

I am so glad I started this topic, because the answers are very interesting, and I really don't think it gets talked enough about around here. I still don't think it is a quality issue, because I have many problems with ROTJ, especially when I hold it up to ANH & ESB, but it is the completion of Luke's story, so I can enjoy as just that. I just think I don't love the PT, because I just don't love Anakins story, or the character either.

Again, I don't think anyone here is wrong for any post they made, it is really what kind of story you want to see? I just love and enjoy the 3 part story of Luke Skywalker, along with Leia & Han, it just works perfectly for me. For me, I love the underdog ultimate good guy movies:

Rocky as opposed to Raging Bull
Hoosiers as opposed to Bull Durham
Superman as opposed to Batman
Luke(4-6) as opposed to Anakin(1-6)