Lit Luke in the new EU

To finally get around to answering this question: No, there is nothing unreasonable about watching ROTJ and thinking that was the direction Luke's story would go. There's nothing unreasonable about wanting that either, or even preferring that version of events - as long as it's understood that there was no obligation on Lucasfilm's part to pick up those story and character threads and continue them in the ST exactly as the ending of ROTJ suggested they would continue. The suggestion that certain stories and character arcs must play out in certain ways if previous episodes in the series are perceived to have "promised" it would be so is a very different ball of wax in terms of its "reasonableness" IMO.

 

It's the timeframe that's problematic. Luke had 30 years to rebuild the Jedi. That's a long time.

Here's a comparison. The controversial Chinese group Falun Gong (sort of a Chinese version of Scientology) has only been around since 1992. They have strange beliefs like aliens want to take over humans etc, not unlike Scientology (One of their members tried to recruit me, telling me seriously that she knew Falun Gong would cure my permanent loud ear ringing injury which has no medical cure). And it's founded by one man, Li Hongzhi.

This group based on pseudoscience now numbers in the thousands despite the Chinese government banning them (although I don't approve of the violent ways they reportedly enforce this law). And this group has only been around since 1992, 26 years--shorter than the 30 years Luke has had since ROTJ.

If one real world person can build a group in 26 years that numbers in the thousands, it's completely understandable that people would have problems with Luke having no Jedi after 30 years. Even taking Kylo into account, Luke should have had scores of other followers around in the galaxy before Kylo even reached adolescence.

 

This is kinda why the idea of Legends being another Universe (Canon or Not...I mean they still sell the books) is in a way appealing. Unlike the Prequels were even though you do have Clone Wars Ver 1 and TCW ...You still are forced by the bounds those movies set up (Like them or hate them) in the post ROTJ world you have Two Takes. Two very distinct timeline of events (Despite the similarities post NJO) of the adventures of Luke, Han Leia and there children. And you can like one or the other or heck like both.

 

This is a bit of conjecture but from Luke's dialogue in the film:

"For many years, there was balance...and then I saw...My nephew... with that mighty Skywalker blood. In my hubris... I thought I could train him, that I could pass on my strength. Han was Han about it, but... Leia... trusted me with her son. I took him... and a dozen students... and began a training temple."

Let's say he spent 10-15 years searching Jedi lore, has to attain himself the rank of Master and all before he's sure he CAN even train people. So he spent a decade-ish getting is Jedi Masters Degree, considering he's the only one that probably isn't unreasonable. Maybe a few years with Ben and the dozen students (also probably for the best he keeps his crew small since by now he knows the old Jedi order only did 1 master and apprentice but Luke HAS to kick it up a notch with his training temple startup at 13 total but nothing too large) and it crashes down at least 6 years before the events of Force Awakens (possibly longer, I'm basing that on the time Bloodline is set but it could have happened before). What I'm getting from that is Luke was simply cautious and trying to learn more about the Jedi, and with good reason. And then Ben killed the hell outta everyone he was trying to train anyway.

 

One of the benefits of the great reboot is I could separate out the two Clone Wars and enjoy the newer, without the problem of it steamrollering the older, which in turn led me to Rebels.

 

Bit of an odd comparison, considering I don't think those thousands of members needed exhaustive training.

But I don't think it's in dispute he could have a fair few members. But the point is made, especially in the new novelization, that Luke was cautious, which I think is a good thing.

 

I think the problem is in at least 2 films we've now seen that you can be a Jedi in a short time (1 year training with Luke) or a matter of days from 2 lessons (Rey is now the last Jedi). People with Jedi values like Ezra show up in a very short time (Ezra was trained by Kanan who was a padawan not even a full knight--or knighted at the last minute in a dream sequence, it's not clear, and Kanan didn't spend 30 years researching before starting with Ezra; going by 'A New Dawn' he was getting into drunk bar fights).

We may be told in the new tie-ins that Jedi should take a long time to train exhaustively, but we are repeatedly shown multiple heroes who are Jedi or have the Jedi way being trained in a very short time.

 

Jedi are trained at the speed of plot.

 

Well, assuming Rey isn't a Jedi yet, they've each taken a few years.

But, again, Luke was rightly cautious.

 

Cuz Kylo and Rey are special, as has been mentioned. Ditto Kanan and Ezra. And Luke. mostly because they're the protagonists. Mostly all of the other exhaustively trained Jedi probably end up fodder. Order 66 randoms, the odd Jedi that the battle droids actually take out. Luke's students. Like that chump who rolled up on Dooku in the Genonosian arena and Jango plugged him real quick like. Betcha that guy probably had, like, 20 years under his misshapen head.

 

Kind of weird Kylo has taken years to train in the dark side and Rey masters the Force in a few days when the dark side is meant to be the quick and easy path.

 

Well, from a certain point of view it is a quick and easy path. Kylo spent a few years training in the dark side and now rules the galaxy. Luke, Yoda, Obi-Wan spend years studying the light side and end up forgotten hermits in exile.

Rey spends a few days training in the light side and is now a runaway on the Falcon, so it's all on track.

 

Haha I'm sure Yoda wasn't talking about job titles.

 

It doesn’t matter how long it takes to become a Jedi if Luke himself does not feel ready to teach yet.

Saying he should have trained more Jedi earlier is ignoring the fact that 1) he was only 23 at the end of RotJ, 2) he’d barely had any of his own training and wanted to learn about the Jedi and other Force traditions first, 3) he took Obi-Wan’s story about training Anakin to heart and didn’t want to make the same mistakes.

Luke in Legends of Luke Skywalker is obviously in information gathering mode but not ready to teach yet. I don’t know why this is surprising to people. Even in Legends he waited some time before starting the Academy. Judging by what happened there, one could argue he should have waited longer.

 

Yah the notion that 3 years after Endor Luke would be "Here's this semester's 30 new padawans, everyone ready for the sorting hat ceremony?!" isn't something I would buy as plausible.

 

The problem though is that, in both EU and canon, we see that dark siders fall and there wasn't much the teacher, no matter how experienced, could have done about it.

ROTS showed it was obvious Anakin had issues way beyond Kenobi becoming a teacher at a young age. Yoda was centuries old, trained Dooku, and he still turned bad.

Luke's slip up with Ben had nothing to do with age. Any reasonable adult knows you don't pull a weapon on a sleeping kid. Furthermore, unless Luke had some bizarre Vergere/Darth Traya/Dark Woman teachings, his teaching had nothing to do with Ben subsequently slaughtering the Academy instead of reporting Luke to the police.

Kyp Durron went bad via Exar Kun ghost. Even fallen EU students--it's usually due to circumstances beyond the Master's control, not the Master's age or experience.

Why not? Maybe not 30 students, but one or 2. Assistant professors right out of their phd's start mentoring grad students; I know some of these don't even have real world industry experience which makes it bizarre how they will mentor students to get into industry. But there you go, it happens in the real world.

My own graduate advisor did not have a professional engineer license! Yet there he was training me to be an engineer and I got the license myself (no thanks to him as he had no advice to offer and not being a PE couldn't even write a recommendation )

 

Kanan was pretty inexperienced but Ezra turned out OK.

 

Ezra wasn't even great starting material too. At some point Luke had to stop waiting for everything to be "perfect" and just start doing. This might be what Yoda meant when Luke was always looking to the future and not just start doing stuff now.

 

You got it. He didn't want for more Jedi to fall to the darkness and cause havoc. As Yoda says, he wasn't focused on the present moment.

 

This all could have been solved to everyone's satisfaction with some small dialogue changes in 8. Run with the idea that Luke had a decades old Jedi Order with masters and knights, and that he recalled all of them to the temple to discuss the Snoke/FO threat. That night, luke pulls the saber on ben, ben kills the entire order and we get the ST story we have now.

The only difference would be that luke didn't seemingly do nothing for 30 years. Also, the tale of kylo singlehandedly wiping out knights and masters hypes his threat level.

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Ehh, I'm not sure the amount of knights he had really changes whether Luke did anything or not. Maybe Luke did heaps of good in those 30 years.

 

I'm not sure that would have really helped. It might have even made it worse. Luke having a bunch of students that were slaughtered is depressing, but saying that an entire order with masters and knights as well were all slaughtered is even more depressing.

 

The whole incident is supposed to be so depressing it sends luke into hiding. So my idea works, I think.

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good point. Just saying it probably wouldn't placate the fans who are disappointed that Luke's life ended up so depressing.

 

It might appease some Legends fans though. Basically the Jedi Knight game series, Jedi Academy Leviathan, the novel Scourge, and any other EU work that doesn't mention or feature the EU Solo children could have "happened" in canon. It gives Luke a true family other than students for decades before it all ends.