Luke, Mara, love, and what their future holds

I think you posted in the wrong thread.

Well, there's a reason I don't read or post much here. Every once and a while that masochism thing drives me. Go fig.

Where was this implied? Kathy Tyers is a very devout Christian and I believe she said in an interview that she wouldn't allude to premarital sex in her books.

Yeah, it is rather surprising. I can't recall the exacts, but I thought it was implied in a scene where Leia is talking to Luke... Right after they get to Bakura, I think. I believe Leia blushes in it.

It was also implied in CoPL, which makes the whole premise of the book even MORE ridiculous, but that's CoPL for ya'.

But according to some people, Zahn's word is pure gold, overriding everyone else's (including Lucas's). We're also supposed to believe that Mara never, ever killed good people, because Zahn said so in an interview at Jade Crusades.

Well, that's bull, IMO. Zahn can believe whatever he wants, but the books speak for themselves... I suppose one could read it that way, if they really want to, but it's not exactly etched in stone.

I don't believe that Mara only killed 'bad people' either. That's just silly: she was doing the will of Palpatine, not exactly the bastion of fair justice. Mara's Imperial/Dark Side past is part of what (could have) made the whole relationship interesting, instead of... Well. How it turned out.

 

Yeah, it is rather surprising. I can't recall the exacts, but I thought it was implied in a scene where Leia is talking to Luke... Right after they get to Bakura, I think. I believe Leia blushes in it.

She comes to Luke all happy and gushy, and explains that she and Han have found it hard to find time alone together. I never read that as "they had sex." Maybe they made out a bit, but didn't have sex.

It was also implied in CoPL,

Han tells Prince Fabio that he and Leia are lovers, yes.

which makes the whole premise of the book even MORE ridiculous, but that's CoPL for ya'.

Agreed. I loathed the book. But I took Han's remark as trying to annoy his "rival."

Well, that's bull, IMO. Zahn can believe whatever he wants, but the books speak for themselves... I suppose one could read it that way, if they really want to, but it's not exactly etched in stone.

You'd think so, the way some people act.

I don't believe that Mara only killed 'bad people' either. That's just silly: she was doing the will of Palpatine, not exactly the bastion of fair justice. Mara's Imperial/Dark Side past is part of what (could have) made the whole relationship interesting, instead of... Well. How it turned out.

I agree. And I also think that Mara was a lot more interesting before all the whitewashes/retcons.

 

I agree. And I also think that Mara was a lot more interesting before all the whitewashes/retcons.

I really don't know why the authors found it necessary to whitewash Mara's past anyway. Couldn't they just have made her very contrite for her past transgressions? The readers (well, some of them) forgave Kyp for blowing up a solar system. I doubt Mara ever killed even a fraction of the number of people annihilated by the suncrusher.

I would have preferred that Mara had a complete change of heart after her time with Luke in TTT. Facing her past and asking forgiveness would have made her more repentant, humble and, in the long run, more open with her emotions. I know we see some of this in SQ, but perhaps not enough.

It is still not too late for this to happen. Perhaps the ordeal with the Vong, having the baby, and the near death of Luke will change Mara for the better.

As a Mara fan I think this change would be a good thing.

 

Well, to kinda get back to the topic, Shelley said:

In any case, another thing I would like to see their future hold is for Mara to come face to face, literally, with her past. One of the more intriguing characters in "Xena: Warrior Princess" was Callisto, the woman whose family Xena butchered while she was evil. (Callisto had turned evil herself, but it didn't change what Xena had done.) I think it'd make for a great story if the sibling/spouse/child of one of Mara's victims had a vendetta against her and sought her out to wreak vengeance. That would remind the characters, and the readers, of what Mara had been -- it would bring her past back out from the carpet that it's been swept under.

I'd love to see that. I thought instantly of Kill Bill when The Bride kills Vernita Green and then turns to see that Vernita's daughter had seen it. Perhaps something like that happened to Mara on one of her 'assignments'? Would be interesting.

 

I'd love to see that. I thought instantly of Kill Bill when The Bride kills Vernita Green and then turns to see that Vernita's daughter had seen it. Perhaps something like that happened to Mara on one of her 'assignments'? Would be interesting.

That would be an interesting storyline. It would be a good reason for Mara's past to be brought up so long after the fact, and it would allow her to fully face her past transgressions.

 

I like that plot idea a lot. I like Mara, but her character's suffered from a lot of poor author choices.

The only problem is that should have happened way back during the Bantam run, but it's still not too late.

 

really don't know why the authors found it necessary to whitewash Mara's past anyway.

You know, I was thinking about the term ?Whitewashing? and I thought I was perhaps used the wrong word to describe what happened. I think the better term is ?Downplaying?.

I know many people will never forgive Mara?s roll in the Empire?s plans. At the same time these same people are willing to forgive Kyp. ?Kyp?, who they will say, ?was possessed by the spirit of a Sith Lord?.

Well, what in the world was the Emperor to Mara, but a Sith Lord? She was brought into the Emperor?s world probably at Pre-school age. The only things she knew was what the Emperor wanted her to know. She was taught that the enemies of the Emperor were the enemies of the State.

She was very young when the emperor died. Luke was just out of his teens. Mara is about Luke?s age, give or take 2 years. Therefore, she had probably undergone approximately 15 years of imperial brainwashing prior to the battle of Endor.

Mara had worked her way to the top of her profession. She was the Emperor?s hand. After being in the Imperial palace since childhood, it must have felt like the greatest accomplishment possible. She is given assignments and she believed she is doing her part for survival of the Empire. I honestly do not know if she actually knew how evil the government was yet.

I know some of you will scoff and say, ?How stupid can she be?? But think about our government. The Democrats and Republicans are sincerely confident that they are the true future for our country. But both have very different visions. Would the Empire be any different to what is going on upon our planet today? Some people believe bombing a certain country is correct and others think it is a war crime. The political issues in Star Wars are black and white to the audience because they are spelled out to us and scrolled across the screen at the start of the movie. Yes, they are obvious to the viewer. But how do we know this is also visible to the average citizen across the galaxy? And I would assume anybody working for the Empire would only receive the sanitized version of what is happening.

When I said earlier that Mara should be repentant, I meant once she was convinced she was working for the wrong side, it should have bothered her. It should have been a great weight on her soul that she might have killed members of the rebellion ~ comrades to the people who were now her friends. That should have disturbed her and the writers should have expressed that.

She was also very close to Anakin Solo (but not as close as McEwok would lead you to believe). I was not upset when she did not initially express sorrow at his death because Luke was freaking out and they had a war mission to accomplish. Mara did the best thing and took over the meeting so Luke did not have to concern himself and could mourn. Unfortunately, once Luke and Mara were together alone, the authors did not let her express her sorrow. That is what I would believe would happen naturally. Yes, she could push down the grief for the mission, but at some point she should have expressed her anguish at Anakin?s loss.

Other people criticize Mara, saying she wanted to kill Luke simply because of her loss of power and prestige. I really do not think it is true. From what I read, Mara had a compulsion to kill Luke because it was the LAST COMMAND OF THE EMPEROR. Think about it, she is a young lady who believes she saw her Master killed by Vader and Skywalker. She has a compulsion to kill and she had the false image of his death that the Emperor sent to her. Of course her brain is going to look for an explanation for this compulsion, and it comes up with one: Luke killed my Master and destroyed my life. Why do you think the Emperor sent out the false image along with the Last Command? Because he needed to give Mara?s brain a reasonable explanation for wanting to kill Skywalker. But she doesn?t. Time and again she stays her hand and does not pull the trigger. Why? I think it is b

 

To get back on topic, I don't think Luke and Mara will have any other children, just because Ben's birth wasn't intended by Del Rey in the first place so they aren't likely to add more kids.

 

just because Ben's birth wasn't intended by Del Rey in the first place so they aren't likely to add more kids.

A lot of births are never planned, that does not mean there wont be any more surprises in the future.

Anyway, with the HUGE amount of children orphaned by the Vong War there is always the possibility of adoption.

Luke and Mara may fulfill Rell's vision of Children for Luke.

 

Always in motion is the future.

 

"These books will continue the adventures of the classic heroes of the saga, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo and Princess Leia, and feature new heroes including Jaina and Jacen Solo and Ben Skywalker.

This from SW.com's announcement about the third auhtor of the Post-NJO 9-book series.

Based on this info, the future may hold only a few more novels with Mara in them.

 

Based on this info, the future may hold only a few more novels with Mara in them.

Don't even joke about that Han. Poor Luke has been through enough pain. I don't want to see him lose his wife and Ben his mother.

Although, I must admit, the Star Wars movies and novels sure like to heap pain or death upon Mothers. First there was Shmi's torture and death. Then Padme's early demise. Followed by Leia's torture. If something terrible happens to Mara it would be in keeping with this trend.

 

What's that quote from, HSK?

 

AG88:
Who's joking? Every other prominent Skywalker/Solo Clan member is mentioned. Not Mara. Draw your own conclusions.


Suzuki_Akira:
Here is the link.
http://www.starwars.com/eu/news/2004/09/news20040915.html

 

Who's joking? Every other prominent Skywalker/Solo Clan member is mentioned. Not Mara. Draw your own conclusions.


NOOOOO!! It is not true! It's impossible!!!!

<Runs away in despair>


I truly hope you are wrong, Han.

 

So do I AG88 .

Qui-Gon Jinn. Obi-Wan Kenobi. Yoda. Chewbacca. Anakin Solo. Eventually all of the "Heroes Die" and Mara Jade Skywalker could be one of the next ones to go.

We shall see.

 

Somehow I always thought Luke would end up adopting Malinza but that never happened. I know he visited and sort of sponsored her but that isn't the same.

 

Or perhaps the Empire's propaganda machine told the press that all the peace loving people of Alderaan decided to hold hands and sing Kumbayah one day and then they all inexplicably jumped up at the same time. When the total population came crashing down to the ground the combined force was so tremendous that the planet was thrown off its axis and it collided with its moons shattering it to bits. It is possible! Maybe Alderaan had Brittle Crust-Mantle-Core disease.



Theses things on Mara don't ever stay on topic. It always turns into a " Is Mara evil or not?" thread.

I know. It's getting pathetic. When you get right down to it, it doesn't matter whether she was evil or not because either way she's on the good side now.

On topic: I don't think Mara will be killed off since after all the trouble Luke had to go through to get a wife. To me it still seems like he just got married! I think it's possible that they have another child, but I doubt it'll happen. Not because they're getting middle-aged (according to Earth years) but because it's hard to visualize it happening after all the troubles surrounding Ben's birth...

 

I would still like to see them have a little girl.

 

random thoughts on things in this thread:

- i don't think Luke and Mara will have any more kids, if for no other reason then the abundance of descendents of the Chosen One currently underfoot.

- re: Mara's past. i don't think Mara is especially horrible. what she did in her time was no worse than what someone like Gilad Pellaeon did. there was a war, she was a soldier. she killed the enemy. that's what you do. there are plenty of totally understandable reasons for supporting the Empire, which is why everyone in the PT era is falling all over themselves trying to give Palpatine power in the first place. the Republic wasn't working, and you could make the argument that you needed a strongman in power to keep everything from total collapse, as almost happened in the Clone Wars. as many people as the Empire killed, it's entirely possible that more of them would have ended up dying from rampant disorder had they not stepped into the vacuum left behind by the collapse of the Republic.

i also wouldn't be surprised if more people got killed during the Clone Wars by the Jedi-led Republic forces than got killed during the Galactic Civil War by the Empire. while the Empire is clearly portrayed as evil, it's not at all a black-and-white moral universe as some GL gushers like to believe. in the Clone Wars, the Jedi fight to suppress people looking for freedom from a corrupt regime using an army of brainwashed clones as their cannon fodder (who are, chronologically and in many senses, emotionally, children). even in the OT, Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted Luke to kill his own father, and it was only Luke choosing to be merciful that saved the day in the end. GL has intentionally painted his own world in shades of grey, and the EU follows suit.

all that said, i don't like how readily characters in-universe brush over the importance of such choices. while i think it's unreasonable to pretend that Mara and other Imperials don't have any kind of ground to stand on at all (even if we ultimately disagree with their decisions), other characters in their own universe seem to be waaaaay too willing to forgive and forget when it comes to certain things like Mara's past. Leia was a hardcore committed Rebel ideologue who lost her entire planet to the Empire, and i find it hard to believe that she would ever be truly comfortable on a social level with someone like Mara, much less being comfortable with her brother marrying her. whether we, the readers, can understand Mara's POV is kind of irrelevant: it's straining disbelief to think that Leia could do so, or that she could think about a dapper young fascist like Jag Fel nailing her daughter without reaching for a blaster. similarly, wouldn't you think more people would be freaked out that Vader's son, who is not only very powerful but also spent a few months trying to conquer the galaxy at the Clone Emperor's side, is marrying another powerful Force-user with a very sketchy background?

- i don't see why there's any reason to presume that any of the characters who have been in relationships are virgins unless it's specifically stated in the material that they are. that's like assuming that none of the characters use the bathroom just because it's not mentioned specifically. there don't seem to be any kind of religious or other cultural taboos against it outside of the PT-era Jedi Order, and even that, debatably, is a prohibition against marriage, not sex - celibacy proper, not chastity.

i think it's beyond argument that Luke has had sex with Shira Brie, the Fallanassi chick, Jem Ysanna, Callista, and Mara, both before and after their marriage.

and Mara? please! Lando or no Lando, she was an elite female spy and assassin for a dictatorial regime, who would often go undercover as a (ahem) "dancing girl." people like that tend to spend a lot of time on their backs for the cause. i always assumed that seduction was part of the arsenal she was trained with. she's probably had more riders than Space Mountain. i don't know wha

 

Funny post, Dizfactor.

While the Empire is clearly portrayed as evil, it's not at all a black-and-white moral universe as some GL gushers like to believe. in the Clone Wars, the Jedi fight to suppress people looking for freedom from a corrupt regime using an army of brainwashed clones as their cannon fodder (who are, chronologically and in many senses, emotionally, children).

Good point. There are always two sides to the story.

Leia was a hardcore committed Rebel ideologue who lost her entire planet to the Empire, and i find it hard to believe that she would ever be truly comfortable on a social level with someone like Mara, much less being comfortable with her brother marrying her.

Leia is the daughter of Vader though and she is married to a former spice smuggler. That may put things in different perspective for her.

or that she could think about a dapper young fascist like Jag Fel nailing her daughter without reaching for a blaster.

But he is dapper!

similarly, wouldn't you think more people would be freaked out that Vader's son, who is not only very powerful but also spent a few months trying to conquer the galaxy at the Clone Emperor's side, is marrying another powerful Force-user with a very sketchy background?

True. But what is anybody going to do or say? Luke was the hero of the rebellion way before he was known as Vader?s son. In addition, I often wonder how well known that fact is in the EU galaxy.

she's probably had more riders than Space Mountain. i don't know what Zahn's thinking.

Ouch! That is bad.

 

I know. It's getting pathetic. When you get right down to it, it doesn't matter whether she was evil or not because either way she's on the good side now.

And murderers often become devout Christians, and devote their lives to helping others while in prison. So what? It doesn't erase their pasts, or make the people they murdered any less dead.

On topic: I don't think Mara will be killed off since after all the trouble Luke had to go through to get a wife.

What trouble, exactly, did he go through?

To me it still seems like he just got married! I think it's possible that they have another child, but I doubt it'll happen. Not because they're getting middle-aged (according to Earth years) but because it's hard to visualize it happening after all the troubles surrounding Ben's birth...

I hope they don't have another child. Mara doesn't deserve to be treated once again like she invented birth.

re: Mara's past. i don't think Mara is especially horrible. what she did in her time was no worse than what someone like Gilad Pellaeon did. there was a war, she was a soldier. she killed the enemy. that's what you do.

She was an evil murderer who killed the people who were fighting her evil master.

there are plenty of totally understandable reasons for supporting the Empire,

Yes, since selfishness is part of human nature, Mara's reasons for supporting the Empire are understandable in that sense.

which is why everyone in the PT era is falling all over themselves trying to give Palpatine power in the first place. the Republic wasn't working, and you could make the argument that you needed a strongman in power to keep everything from total collapse, as almost happened in the Clone Wars. as many people as the Empire killed, it's entirely possible that more of them would have ended up dying from rampant disorder had they not stepped into the vacuum left behind by the collapse of the Republic.

Oh, I don't know. And I think the fact that the Empire wiped out an entire planet, full of billions of people (and was about to do likewise with another planet: Yavin) kind of outweighs it.

i also wouldn't be surprised if more people got killed during the Clone Wars by the Jedi-led Republic forces than got killed during the Galactic Civil War by the Empire. while the Empire is clearly portrayed as evil, it's not at all a black-and-white moral universe as some GL gushers like to believe.

Yes it is, and you don't have to be a GL "gusher" to believe that. The Empire is identified as evil. The Rebels are fighting against it. The EU is trying to get various pet characters off the hook by trying to put gray areas where none belong.

in the Clone Wars, the Jedi fight to suppress people looking for freedom from a corrupt regime using an army of brainwashed clones as their cannon fodder (who are, chronologically and in many senses, emotionally, children). even in the OT, Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted Luke to kill his own father, and it was only Luke choosing to be merciful that saved the day in the end. GL has intentionally painted his own world in shades of grey, and the EU follows suit.

No it doesn't. GL painted the Empire as unquestioningly evil. The EU tries to muddy that.

all that said, i don't like how readily characters in-universe brush over the importance of such choices. while i think it's unreasonable to pretend that Mara and other Imperials don't have any kind of ground to stand on at all (even if we ultimately disagree with their decisions), other characters in their own universe seem to be waaaaay too willing to forgive and forget when it comes to certain things like Mara's past. Leia was a hardcore committed Rebel ideologue who lost her entire planet to the Empire, and i find it hard to believe that she would ever be truly comfortable on a social level with someone like Mara, much less being comfortable with her brother marrying her. whether we, the readers, can understand Mara's POV is kind of irrelevant: it's straining disbelief to think that L

 

Leia is the daughter of Vader though and she is married to a former spice smuggler. That may put things in different perspective for her.

i don't know about that. first of all, she's had a much harder time dealing with Vader being her father than Luke did, probably in part because she had been more deeply involved in the Rebellion for longer and she had lost more to the Empire. more importantly, though, she wasn't around for the confrontations on either Cloud City or the DS II. Luke experienced Vader's redemption firsthand and got to see Anakin emerge, as well as experiencing all of it through the Force. Leia just got all the stories second-hand from Luke and never got to get closure with Dear Old Dad on her own.

as for Han's past, that's kind of like saying someone would be more understanding of someone's background as a Nazi war criminal if their boyfriend used to sell pot in his college dorm room. Han's criminality is just on a totally different level.

True. But what is anybody going to do or say? Luke was the hero of the rebellion way before he was known as Vader?s son.

Anakin Skywalker was a hero of the Clone Wars way before he was known as Vader. OJ Simpson used to be on Wheaties boxes before people came to believe he killed his wife. John Wayne Gacy was a popular guy heavily involved in local politics before they found the bodies in the crawlspace. one Very Bad Thing can erase a lifetime of good deeds.

In addition, I often wonder how well known that fact is in the EU galaxy.

that's something i wonder, too. but people close to him certainly know, and i'm sure people a few circles out at least suspect.

 

Oh, and for the record, DeJade_Vu, I don't think Mara is going to be revealed as a Sith. She neither is nor ever was anywhere near that powerful or important.

 

Mara=Stormtrooper+small Force training+stealth

Enough of Mara's past, we're getting off topic again...

I don't think there needs to be a lot of Chosen ONe descendents directly through Luke. As long as they don't kill off Ben, I'll be content with him.