Luke Skywalker and the future of the Jedi Order Post-ROTS (no EU)

For the purpose of this discussion (and to remain within the parameters of this forum), let's set aside what we know from the EU and consider this matter strictly based on what we know from the six STAR WARS movies.

First, it must be said that one cannot doubt the magnitude of Luke Skywalker's achievements. He succeeded where the entire Jedi Order failed in enabling the Chosen One, his father Anakin, to overcome the Dark Side and destroy the Sith. This could not have happened had Luke not made all the right decisions. The galaxy and the Jedi owe a great debt of gratitude to Luke Skywalker.

That being said, how well-qualifed/prepared was Luke for the other part of his duty/destiny...to "pass on what he had learned," in the words of Yoda?

Although he succeeded in defeating Darth Vader and reviving Anakin to defeat Darth Sidious, Luke's record as a Jedi is extremely limited. The complete body of knowledge that encompassed the Jedi Order included the 900 years of Yoda's life plus that of the Jedi who lived during the time of the Old Republic. With the loss of the Jedi Temple and the Jedi Holocron, none of that knowledge was accessible to Luke. Moreover, despite his great achievements, the fact is that Luke's formal training as a Jedi was minimal. All of the Old Republic Jedi had been trained in the Jedi arts from early childhood, and even Anakin, with his truncated training, was formally trained for over a decade. Luke's formal training, by comparison, consisted of a few days' instruction from Obi-Wan Kenobi and possibly a few days or weeks more from Yoda. How can this compare with the huge body of knowledge that the Old Republic Jedi had in their heyday? As a Force-user, master of Jedi lore, lightsaber wielder, etc., isn't Luke (despite his obvious affinity for the Force, as the scion of the Chosen One) hopelessly underprepared to revive the Jedi Order?

 

Don't forget that Luke still has his mentor, Yoda, even after ROTJ. Force ghosts may not be the best for practical Jedi training, but by the end of ROTJ Luke has the mental strength and the practical skills of a fully-trained Jedi. What he lacks is knowledge about the force, and Yoda could definitely give him more of that knowledge.

Also, in a way the loss of knowledge is a good thing. The Jedi Order had become dogmatic and narrow-minded, and sometimes the best way to fix something is to throw it all away and start from scratch.

 

I agree with that, I always thought it was a kind of rebirth for the Jedi. With all the old masters and knowlage were lost to the ages and Luke's going to have to figure out everything agian. I think Yoda and Ben gave Luke only what they thought he would need, mainly a great understanding between the light and dark side and the difference between the too. So really I think he was more morally trained then anything. This topic is great cause we're putting aside all that EU stuff, I always hated how they made Luke into this all powerful Jedi, when in reality he will never reach the level of the PT Jedi.

 

Obi-wan wanted to train Luke the traditional way from the get-go but Yoda put an end to that idea rather quickly. He knew a new way would be needed.

EU aside, I'm sure that whatever Jedi Order that came to be from Luke would have plenty of bumps in the road but it would find a way.

 

"There is still good in him. I felt it; I can turn him back .. to the good side" Luke (Ep 6)

Just as Padme felt the good in Anakin 20 plus years earlier, Luke also knew that part of Vader's core was built on something good. It wasn't completely out of greed for oneself. Anakin's reasons for falling were flawed and vain but not fully basked in seeds of hatred or murder. It's a case of the 'fatal flaw' in the hero's journey.

What set Luke apart from all the other Jedi in his ability to awaken Anakin behind the mask of Vader was the blood connection of family; the direct link to Padme; which is the reason Vader emerged out of Anakin in the first place.

"Vader was seduced by the dark side of the force" Ben Kenobi (Ep 4)

The strategy 'Old Ben' sets into motion comes to his mind once he finds himself on the Death Star. He senses that Vader is near and that conflict will ensue. He already knows he doesn't want to strike him down; that will only lead to a new apprentice. Having lived through the death of Lord Maul and Lord Tyrannus; Ben knows all to well that the death of Vader will accomplish nothing if it doesn't take Sidious out of power.

Equiped with the knowledge of netherworld, he knew he would have access to both Luke and Yoda to make his plan work. Luke training in the force is really a less important detail. Although at one point Yoda claims that only a fully trained knight can accomplish the test, he's really speaking in half truths. The only reason to train Luke is to tempt the Emperor to try and make him his new apprentice. Once that cycle begins, the Sith rule of two will demand that either Vader or Luke be killed to maintain the cycle. Knowing Vader won't kill his son and training Luke to be good will ensure that neither kill the other. This will force the hand of Sidious to kill the weaker of the two according to Sith tradition. So in the end the level of training Luke had really was irrelevent as long as he wouldn't be tempted to turn.

"Already have you, that which you need." Yoda (Ep 5)

Leia was just as qualified for the plan that Luke was a part of; not because of their affinity to the force, but because as the last link to Padme; they would be people Vader couldn't kill no matter how twisted he had become.

I think the future of the Jedi Order would emerge in much the same way that it emerged from the time when the Republic was formed. What I mean is fundamentally it wouldn't develop into anything very much different than what the Jedi Order was in the time of the prequels. A few differences might be where the temple is located and their chain of command in relationship to the Republic but not much else would be different. I could see it being built on a remote world; difficult to ambush with surprise and I could see them not being under the thumb of the Republic's government, incase corruption took hold.

Whethor or not this was the purpose of the prequels; as far as setting up the motivations and chains of logic for the OT is unknown to me; but this line of thought is the only logical path that justifies waiting 20 plus years for the Jedi to face the Sith.

 

Well my own fatal flaw is i tend ot post before i really grasp what the thread is about hehe .... sorry for that.

I'd like to add that Luke would probably do away with the concept of a Jedi council and allow everyone to have an equal voice. The mandate of the Jedi (singular) would be centered much more on what the will of the force is rather than what the reasoning (however well intended or informed) of a small body of council members would dictate. There would likely be a much greater feeling of family in the order rather than the feeling of being an organization.

One thing is for absolute certain; the temple would not be surrounded by nothing but buildings on a planet that's one vast city. It would be on a planet teeming with natural life; like Endor, Yavin 4 or Dagobah; a place where the will of the living force would speak volumes and those who practice that will wouldn't have difficulty hearing it.

 

I believe Luke was hopelessly undertrained and will possibly never reach the level of Jedi that his father and mentors had.
However, that is a good thing because the Jedi Order needed fresh blood as well as fresh thought in order to reimerge.
The people of Naboo value innocence over wisdom, that is why their rulers are often young girls who are pure of heart (i. e. Padme) and that is exactly what the Jedi Order needs.
There was too much knowledge/wisdom at the end of their rule that it made them blind. The Dark Side clouded their judgement. Only a Padawan (Obi-Wan) could sense an elusive danger in the future (beginging of TPM), all the masters couldn't see much (Difficuld to see, this boy's future is).
Enter Luke Skywalker=a dreamer, innocent boy, loosely trained in the Jedi ways. He is perfect for the task of building a new Jedi Order.

 

I'm sure that with the Sith dead, Luke could journey over to Coruscant and grab the holocrons of both the Jedi and the Sith, leaving him ample opportunities to learn what he needed to about the force. I'm positive Sidious would not have had all of them destroyed, as there was knowledge in them that he himself could may have referred to. I'm sure Sids scoured the archives for potential ways to cheat death.

Carnage

 

It was sort of a re-birth for the Jedi. But let's not forget that the things that meant the demise of the Jedi were that they didn't follow their code - Windu who tried to kill Sideous - Ki Adi Mundi who suggested that the Jedi must take over the Senate... things that were not Jedi like in any fashion...

The way I saw it was that the two remaining Jedi, OBW and Yoda were the ones true to Jedi customs, and the right ones to carry it forward...

But then again, I may be way off

 

Yoda didn't object to taking control of the senate, he only warned to take great care in doing so. Mace attacked Palps because, well Palps is a Sith. Jedi fight Sith. I understand the whole "knowledge and defense" stuff, but if you pop a Jedi and a Sith into the same room, **** will go down.

Luke didn't get traditional training for a reason. Traditional training is what got the entire Jedi order, save two, killed. A new method was needed, even if it meant certain sacrifices.

Turns out they were right.

 

Well, Yoda didn't explicitly state that he objected to it, but he did say that "to dark places these thoughts will lead us" - I think that means he objected to it - it's like saying it would carry them down the dark side...

I don't think the old Jedi way was wrong - it was more a question that they tried to please everyone... if they had looked out for themselves they would have been OK... But then again, they would have broken their oath to the Republic.

 

I very much disagree. The PT Jedi did not die out because of too much knowledge/wisdom. They died out because of their dogmatic Jedi Code left them helpless against the Sith, who could use their emotions to strengthen their connection with the Force. The reason that the Sith were defeated is that Luke realized the error in the Jedi Code and battled the Sith Lords' hate with love. Once Luke writes a new Jedi Code with the errors fixed, the Jedi will be stronger, not weaker, because of it. Given that Luke is the son of the Chosen One, if he continues to learn about the Force from Yoda he certainly has the potential to become the most powerful Jedi ever. I don't see why you guys think he'll be weaker than the Jedi from the PT.

 

I think they relied too much on their wisdom/knowledge and forgott to trust the Force when they should have. In the end they relied more on wisdom/knowledge more than their feelings.

Luke didn't really realize or learn much in his brief period of training, he trusted his feelings.

 

Those are my exact feelings on the subject.

Were he not the son of the chosen one, perhaps. I get into this debate all the time with my friends. Watch the battle on Jabba's sail barge; Luke lacks the finesse of Obi-wan or Qui-gon, but the odds he faces and overcomes places him easily above Coleman Trebor, Mace's posse, and most of the other jedi in the Geonosis arena. Additionally, Luke's power grows exponentially in each movie. In ANH, Luke can barely block blasters, by ESB he has figured out how to use force TK (on his own), and in ROTJ, he has the fighting skills of the average PT era jedi knight. There is no reason to believe that his powers wouldn't continue to grow after ROTJ. It's true however, that there would be many specific techniques that he has no knowledge of, but because of his incredible connection to the force, he and his students would most likely re-discover them over time.

Now, to continue the speculation resquested in the topic, I think Luke's jedi order would have a much looser organization. One of the major changes to the jedi code would be that jedi are required to master and be able to use their emotions, instead of supressing them. I imagine the new breed of jedi would ressemble Qui-gon Jinn quite a bit; a strong connection to the living force, trusting their instincts/feelings, ect.

 

I partly agree - I think Dex put the issue quite well: "I thought you Jedi would have more respect for the difference between knowledge and wisdom." They relied too much on their knowledge, on the expense of their wisdom. Another problem is summed up by Jocasta Nu: "If an item doesn't appear in our records, it doesn't exist." They relied too much on what was already known and on record, at the expense of opening up to new and unknown things.

I'm certain that Sid took care to safeguard the holochron archives. He's a highly educated man and he values knowledge. He wouldn't destroy the library of Alexandria of the Galaxy far, far away. So it is quite likely that Luke and the new Jedi following him would have the opportunity to access ancient Jedi wisdom. And there's Korriban also - which opens up the opportunity for them to study the archives of the Sith. In a sense, they would have access to more knowledge than either PT Jedi or Sith, because they had the chance to study both systems, and thus go beyond both of them. Study the great mystery in all of its aspects, so to speak . I think it's much better to have a sound knowledge about the nature of dark side and its dangers instead than to be ignorant - maybe that was another weakness of the PT Jedi; they didn't know enough about the danger they were facing, and thus they didn't know enough about their enemy.

 

If you go on just what you see from the films, then he

Trains his sister in the Force with the help of Obi, Ani, and Yoda ghosts.

Then most likely scours the galaxy in search of other Jedi or force-potential people that survived the Purge.