Discussion Luke Skywalker as the Master Jedi

That's a very weak and desperate argument.

Exactly.

 

When it comes to characters, Star Wars gives us lots of people who make bad decisions. This is part of the point. Decisions are what make things happen. To a point.

At the same time, we have a prophecy. When it comes to this, it doesn't matter who does what, the outcome will be the same. As the prophecy exists, the Force would have fallen out of balance regardless of Qui-Gon or anyone else's actions.

Nobody can say things like "If Qui-Gon didn't do this, then that wouldn't have happened." The lesson in the story stems from the idea that in the fictitious telling, the events that occurred were necessary.

 

And comfort them appropriately!

 

Derp.
Obviously. We're talking about what the message is supposed to be of these parts of the film.

 

but luke starts the new jedi order his way. as shown by him having a wife he goes through the loss of her and does not turn to the dark side.

 

Not so obvious to some apparently or they wouldnt be saying such things. Clearly you get it, but not everyone......somehow.......

 

If you want to argue with me, please do so. I don't take kindly to insinuations behind my back. Maybe you with your profound insight could tell me what the point was with having the so called good guys use a slave army as living meatshields and why I or anyone else should feel empathy with these murderers and criminals. Or why this is part of a movie directed at children. I'm so excited for hearing rationalizations and excuses.

 

Of the options above, perhaps a mix between Mace Windu and Obi-Wan but not quite the Yoda level yet

 

Luke will be powahfull.

 

I think what bothers me the most is that Vader and Tarkin and so on also used an "end justifies the means" logic to rationalize their crimes against humanity. But yet the Jedi are portrayed as the heroes and their downfall as "tragic". Where's the eulogy for Tarkin I wonder?
But apparently only the Jedi-Übermenschen are above judgment and morality. Disgusting!

 

I'd like Luke to be the powerful wise Master Jedi at the head of a new Order, I could see him being at Obi-Wan's level if not higher since they is really the only person who taught him.

 

Im not sure what offended you here, but that was not my intention, nor was anything I said aimed at you.

I was simply saying that my understanding of the way the story was told seemed clear to me.

 

If you want to watch a movie where the good guys are ideologically perfect naive little princesses that never get faced with any tough decisions, you can feel free to go and watch a children's film of which Star Wars is not. A little bit of realism is what makes movies good.

You assume your mode of ethics is the correct one and so the Jedi must follow it. You insist that it is immoral to sacrifice a small group of innocent to save a much larger amount of other innocent people.
In actual fact many if not most people would disagree with this.
Ethics are a very subjective matter and the Jedi happen to use a system that offers the greatest protection to the universe.

I don't think that Vader uses the ends justify the means logic (teleological ethics) at all. He was always the opposite of this as shown by his resistance to use the means of killing a defenceless being in order to remove evil from the universe.

Once he was a full blown Sith it's hard to see how he was using any sort of moral code aside from ethical egoism. i.e. Just looking out for himself.

 

I assume that yes, the heroes should believe in the Geneva convention and yes, they shouldn't commit crimes against humanity. I am willing to accept some violations of law, but this is so frigging major that only one without any moral standards whatsoever could overlook it. When you do this kind of thing you cross right into villainstown.

Also the Jedi have sacrificed a group of innocents before war was even declared. They didn't attempt any diplomacy. No, straight to war it was. This is extremely callous behavior and "ends justify the means" only excuses so much. Excuses are easy. Everyone can invent excuses.

Nonsense. Vader said himself he wanted to bring order to the galaxy and employing fascistic methods were in his mind most effective methods to accomplish that. Palpatine for him was more of a good guy than Mace Windu. Also a lot of other imperial officers thought in an "end justify the means" kind of scheme. Obviously they also thought themselves the good guys because basically everyone does that. You see where the "ends justify the means" school of thinking can lead if you are not very, very careful with it?

Obviously not. Maybe reading some David Brin wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

Agree. Sometimes your actions or even lack of actions towards a know prophecy will make it come into fruition. Brings to mind all these doom and gloom- armaggedon preppers. Most likely they will be the cause for their own demise like David Koresh and the Branch Dividian Cult believing their world will come to a firey end. A self fullfilling prophecy. Qui-gon set the actions in motion. If it weren't him it would have been someone else. Fortunately, the force guided them to Tattoine and they were able to find Anakin first. (Someone would eventually find him regardless, who knows maybe Maul himself). Everything in Episode I transpired strickly by the will of the force. (The blockcade, the Jedi Surviving their attack, The Queens escape, the failure of the hyper drive, Meeting Watto and Discovering Anakin, having Anakin and Padme meet, winning the Podrace, bringing Anakin to the Jedi Temple) All this happened by the will of the force in order to bring Balance to the Force. Yes it took a long time, about 4 more episodes, but eventually it happen. Be glad that the Jedi found him first, 'cuase if the Sith would have discovered him first he would have never known good. So Qui-gon stating that it was the will of the force that brought him to Anakin was 100% correct and the events that occurred were indeed very necessary. Including Anakin getting Padme pregnant and turning to the dark side. It was all necessary to bring balance to the force. At least for a little while: Cue Episode VII!

 

I agree, I'm pretty sure there are many unanswered questions in Luke's mind. I would like to see an Older Ahsoka Tano come into the mix, and enlighten Luke about his father. Unlike Obi-Wan who attempted to obscure his father's history, Ahsoka would lay it on the line. Who knows maybe she could even get Luke thinking and even questioning what he's learned about the Dark Side! it would make for an interesting trilogy if Luke would go down that path and emerge at the other end.

 

I like Ahsoka, but she really has no business being in the ST. Also if Luke wants to learn of his past he can always ask his ghost dad.

 

Best.Post.Ever

 

Yes, that's a good thing. Unfortunately the EU can't remedy all the damage. But I agree that the EU portrayal of the OJO is often better than the one in the PT.

 

Let's get one thing straight about Luke- he was NOT as strong as Yoda at the end of ROTJ; he was getting tooled EASILY by the emperor until Vader stepped in and did the human body toss. Luke was getting roasted like a marshmallow- "Your feeble skills are no match for me boy!" Indeed they were feeble compared to Yoda and the Emperor, it is hilarious all of this "Luke was already stronger than Yoda." ROFL, do you actually follow the story or just see what you want to see?

How Luke will be by the time of Episode 7 depends on what has happened in between.

The EU is absolutely positively irrelevant.

 

Why is everyone so obsessed about Yoda? There's a reason why he took Luke as pupil. Yoda and Obi-Wan knew very well they couldn't deal with Vader and Palps on their own, they needed Luke for that.

Luke accomplished a lot. He won the chess game for Vaders soul and basically out-gambitted Palpatine. He beat Vader in a fight. He only got grilled by lightning because he underestimated the Emperors powers and threw his lightsaber away. But then again maybe he was ready to die just to make a point.