Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Jedirush2112, May 6, 2013.
Sounds like a good comedy:
LOL, your point being that Luke was as powerful as Palp at that time, and could have won had he not thrown away his lightsaber, and that Luke was as powerful as Yoda? You do know that you have to want to believe that to believe it, l right?
Gee, if Luke was so powerful, why was he not able to fight Palp WITHOUT his lightsaber like Yoda did? Why did he have to beg for Vader to help him and save his life ("Father, pleeeaaaase!!!")?
Luke- Just got through training, just BECAME a Jedi moments earlier (""After you face Vader again, only then, a Jedi will you be."), a rookie Jedi basically.
Yoda- Grand Master, trained Jedi for 800 years.
Palp- Master of the dark side for generations, ruler of the galaxy.
Yet, some how Luke is more powerful as a Jedi then them during ROTJ? In your mind maybe, not in the story.
Because he would rather die than fight, shown so that anyone could grasp it by how he threw his lightsaber away. Defending would be fighting and Luke rejected that at this point of time.
It is not my fault the OT is constantly retconned because of the PT or the EU. In my opinion the original material is more important than these lesser works.
If you look at the OT alone, nothing is wrong with Lukes training time.
His willingness to "rather die" is sorta suspect in light of his cries of "Father, please!!!".
Given that Yoda's species can live for 900+ years, it's impossible for Luke to be has experience as him.
Excruciating pain does tend to cause begging, yes.
I hear what you're saying, but I think that Luke went in knowing that, as far as he was concerned, one of two things would occur: Luke would either somehow reach his father, or die trying, and I think he was as at peace with this as anybody could realistically be expected to be.
I guess what I'm saying is that, to me, the idea that Luke made one last ditch (and successful) effort to reach Anakin in the midst of Palpatine's torture, doesn't show a lack of willingness to die for the cause.
...doesn't show a lack of willingness to die for the cause.
It makes you wonder if he'll end up doing so in Episode VII.
You are creating your own story basically. Luke was a rookie Jedi, he didn't have what it took to fight Palp whether he had his lightsaber or not, that is true no matter which series you want to consider. Luke knew that. The martyr bit is your creation, not Lucas's.
Luke was just a Novice Jedi when he confronted Vader along side Sidious. He totally underestimated the Sith Lord's Power. He probably hadn't even heard of Force Lightning until he was bathed in it. Fortunately, a Darth Vader (Anakin) did remember. And decided to become the Myrtle and take out Sidious along with him. Regardless, Luke was nowhere near the strength or wisdom of Yoda, Mace or Obi-wan for that matter. He was just strong and pretty damn lucky his father had a moment of clarity!
We are all in agreement: Luke was willing to die until he didn't want to die.
Precisely how I felt, too...
Yet Yoda himself said that he had learned what he needed.
You seem to think Obi-Wan and Yoda would send a pupil to almost certain death. I disagree about that.
The martyr bit is definitely not my creation. Luke throwing his lightsaber away was in the movie. Throwing your weapon away is generally a symbolic gesture about not wanting to fight. He didn't necessarily want to die, but he'd rather die than fight.
My interpretation is just out of favor because it doesn't fit well with the EU and the PT. But I think EU and PT should adhere to the OT, not the other way round.
TreborSaberon has also explained well what was going on inside of Luke in the throne room.
Your interpretation is out of favor because it is a logical fail.
Keep this civil.
And how would you interpret Luke throwing down his lightsaber? He obviously didn't intend to keep using it to fight.
Pevra - I think the problem people are having is not what Luke throwing away his saber meant, but your original idea that he was as/more powerful than Palpatine in ROTJ.
We can talk about his potential and (shudder) his midichorian levels, but in terms of ability, in ROTJ, I think Vader was the best that Luke could do.
Meaning he would not have been able to beat Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin, Mace, or Sidious.
30 years later though....who knows how powerful he becomes?
It's like Michael Kidd-Gilchrist admitting that a 50-year-old Michael Jordan beat him in one on one.
How do you then explain that Yoda and Obi-Wan don't team up one year after RotS, first take out Vader and then go after the Emperor?
It is possible to pull an explanation out of your own rear end for that one, but it will be a bad explanation. It is easier to assume that all three, Vader, Luke and the Emperor are about on par and Obi-Wan and Yoda are simply weaker. Then it makes perfect sense that they would wait for someone with a unique potential to come around.
There's also the fact that I don't like to think Yoda would send Luke at Sidious if he didn't believe he had a good shot at winning. Otherwise Yoda would look like a giant douchebag, especially because he tells Luke that he has all he needs to win the battle.
Yes, just ignore the points I am making and ridicule me. Nice style there. Are you feeling so threatened by what I am saying?
Threatened? No, but your language is funny, and honestly, so are some of your ideas. You allude to others "pulling an explanation form their rear end," and then go on top do exactly that yourself.
Why? If you look at the OT on its own, nothing there implies that Yoda or Obi-Wan are more powerful than Luke. Yoda takes quite some time to raise the X-wing out of the swamp and we never see him swinging a lightsaber.
Palpatine is killed by an injured Vader, meaning he can't be that much powerful either.
Only when you take the EU and the PT into account do you arrive at the conclusion that Luke was still a trainee in the finale of the saga.
But who am I arguing with? You will just continue treating me like an idiot.
Actually, that was Luke renouncing turning to the dark side, i.e. finishing off Vader (which he was on the verge of doing) and then joining Palp (which was what Palp's expectation was). In the novelization, it brings up Luke realizing that he has become just like his father in that moment, hateful and thirsty for a kill (the movie also shows him ABOUT to finish Vader off, then coming to his senses); Luke at that moment realizes that he doesn't hate his father or Palpatine, but hates the darkness within them; he is showing Palp that he failed to turn him to the dark side by throwing away his weapon and not killing Vader (again, this is explicitly described in the novel, and implicit in the movie).