Luke Skywalker vs Lumiya

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Mateo, Aug 18, 2001.

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  1. Mateo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2001
    star 4
    I read about Lumiya the Dark Lady of the Sith once in here so i went into timetales and uncovered alot about her, apparently she fell in love with Luke and was shot down by him and Darth Vader rescued her after that and made her much like him, she later remerged and fought with luke using a Lightwhip and beat him easily capturing him, she also beat Leia once too, but could NJO Luke defeat her in combat? he beat both Palpatine and Vader along with several Dark Jedi.

    Does anyone know?
  2. Wedge 88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 1999
    star 6
    Lumiya is still alive.

    I would love to see NJO era Luke vs NJO era Lumiya. Luke would try and convert her and not try and kill her. And then Han or someone would have to save his arse.
  3. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Mateo,

    The interesting thing about Luke and Shira is that essentially they are soulmates, two opposite edges of the same blade - which is why they were naturally attracted to each other. They both were the hopes of their orders.

    Luke was the savior of the Jedi in the same way that Shira was the savior of the Sith. Both had training which was not necessarily traditional training, but was a "crash course" required to save their order. Lumiya became a Dark Lord (lady) of the Sith when her Sith masters both died at once. She was sent to the depths of the remnants of the Sith Empire to become their heir, and the creation of her lightwhip, a deadly Sith weapon was her graduation. Just like Luke was sent to train from Yoda to become a Jedi weapon against the Emperor.

    Now, flash forward twenty some odd years. Luke is a Jedi Master and Lumiya is a Sith Master. It would be a battle to shake the heavens. Luke was trained by the best Jedi ever - Master Yoda (and Obi-Wan). Lumiya was trained by the best Sith ever Emperor Palpatine (and Darth Vader). Their lives are mirror images of each other.

    I suspect a third battle between them would be a draw.
  4. EmpressMara Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2001
    star 1
    Shira/Lumiya reminds me a lot of Mara Jade. I read that those two have met before. Does anyone know where? I'd like to see a battle between them.

    EU/NJO Luke could defeat Lumiya, but you're right, he'd try to convert her first. Maybe Mara would save him! I'd bet she'd be jealous of Luke's former love interest. Can you say catfight?

    I'm just shocked that Lumiya exists in the EU though. She was from the old Marvel Star Wars Comics series, and should be part of Infinities, not the standard EU continuity. Oh, well, a good character shouldn't be wasted. Let the battle begin!
  5. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    I dispute the comment about Ben and Yoda being the best Masters ever.I'd rather have Master Thon as my Jedi Master.

    An Vader was Lumiya's primary teacher. :p
  6. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    EmpressMara...
    Yes, you're right that Mara Jade is a lot like the much-earlier Shira Brie in many, many ways. However, to suggest that Marvel should be Infinities is no different than suggesting Heir to the Empire being Infinities. They're both parts of the Star Wars saga.

    MT...
    As much as I like Thon, he can't be considered anywhere near one of the best Masters. He was responsible for Nomi Sunrider - one of the worst Jedi ever. Her actions throughout the entire fall of Ulic Qel-Droma were disgraceful, especially at the conclusion of the Sith War. Master Arca was much more successful, as his apprentice ended up being 10 times the Jedi Thon's was. :p But, yes I did go with the biased fan favorite in calling Yoda the "best ever." You can't argue that Yoda's training of Luke was successful.
  7. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    Yoda was an arrogant, deceitful toad. As was his numero-uno flunky, Obi-Wan Kenobi.
  8. Wedge 88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 1999
    star 6
    Yeah, and Luke was a whiney little kid. Han was a cocky pimp. Chewie was a dog!! Leia was a snobby good for too much princess. AND Vader was so wimpy it wasn't even funny.

    God, those movies sucked.

    Thrawn all the way! ;)
  9. Mateo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2001
    star 4
    I think Luke Skywalker would beat the living crap out of Lumiya, he beat her with two lightsabers in his rematch with her but he never had much luch against Flint though, and im sure luke could beat Sarcev Quest easily,as well as that retard Kir Kanos who resorted to attacking Carnor Jax only after he used the force to snatch that Trandoshans weapon because he knew he couldnt kill him if Jax was ready for the attack, but i dont think that Carnor Jax would be a match for luke because he had minor force talents of the royal guards and sovereign protectors and minor Sith combat training but was just learning, he was tough against normal people without the force but not trained adepts with real training...at least not yet.

    One last thought about Lumiya the Dark Lady of the Sith, if Carnor Jax had killed that retard Kir Kanos and become Emperor what would lumiya's place in his empire be? i think that she would be giving out the orders but wouldnt be seen in public because the empire would never let a woman lead it.
  10. III_Vir_RPC Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 1
    Genghis12, the problem is that Lady Lumiya never was and never shall be a member of the order for which you claimed she was the last hope. The reason for that is because only the Apprentice died; the Master did not die, and was free to take on another apprentice, which he did not do.

    Whilst she was a Sith, certainly, and even the founder of her own cadet line, she was not a member of the Sith Order, and she was not its saviour. Considering that she did not save it.

    Concerning Master Yoda's training of Luke... what of it? He and General Kenobi produced a weapon, without much of the philosophical training which defined the Jedi (which is a good thing, as it took General Skywalker longer to become the moral coward that his trainers had been indoctrinated as since childhood)---not so very much unlike Lord Maul, whose sole purpose was to exterminate Jedi.

    Anger... fear... aggression... of the dark side of the Force, are they? Master Yoda would know. It was his fear that drove him to hide. It was his aggression and desire for revenge that drove him to train a farmboy into a weapon, designed to kill Sith.

    As for who would win, between the craven Jedi Master Luke Skywalker and the treacherous bastard Sith Master Lumiya---

    Shira Brie was trained by Imperial Intelligence, Lord Vader, and the Emperor. And they are few and far between who can match the Emperor's skill at training death machines. Lady Lumiya's superior physical conditioning and ruthlessness, combined with General Skywalker's cowardice, ensure a victory for her cadet order.
  11. EmpressMara Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2001
    star 1
    Genghis12:
    When Bantam began publishing SW novels, the Marvel Comics continuity was largely ignored and often contradicted. Compare Marvel SW's events between TESB and ROTJ to the events in Shadows of the Empire. Can the two timelines be reconciled? I had read that the Bantam and Del Rey novels, along with the Dark Horse (non-Infinities) comics are EU canon and that the Marvel stories are considered apocryphal. I think of the Marvel SW universe as an AU. Some of the characters there have "counterparts" in the EU, such as when Rik Duel is mentioned in A.C. Crispin's Han Solo trilogy. If the whole Marvel SW Universe could be explained in terms of EU continuity that would be great, but until someone can do that I'll stick with my AU theory. If Shira Brie/Lumiya does indeed exist in EU (and it appears that she does), I'd like to see her character's origins explained and her recent activities chronicled. She was one of the best Marvel SW characters, and even in the Marvel SW Universe, her final fate was unknown.

    I like your "mirror images" theory of Luke and Lumiya. Where did you get your information on Lumiya being a Sith Master? Is this just an extrapolation, or an EU fact? I'm just curious.
  12. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    EmpressMara,

    I suggest you read the latest Lucasfilm "Ask the Jedi Council" question and answer at StarWars.com for the latest regarding the Marvel comics and it's place in the Expanded Universe of Star Wars.

    P.S. - None of the post-ESB issues contradict Shadows of the Empire. They just reinforce the fact that the search for Han was on, and we see how Lando and Chewie went about tracking Boba Fett, while evading the schemes of Bossk, Zuckuss and IG-88.
  13. Jedi-Sith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 3
    Umm great idea but I thought Lumiya was killed by Bey?

    I havent got Gamer #5 so maybe I am wrong
  14. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Jedi-Sith...
    "Umm great idea but I thought Lumiya was killed by Bey?"

    Ummm...that is old, old news that's is way outdated. It was 1995's Star Wars Galaxy magazine #3 which told us that Lumiya had indeed survived Bey's supposed shot in the back. Remember, Shira is extremely resourceful and has survived much worse wounds than that. She went underground, figuring that with everyone thinking her dead, it makes her job as a Dark Lord of the Sith that much easier.

    III_Vir...
    You have nothing to back up your claims. Lumiya is indeed the heir apparent to thre Vader/Palaptine line. We know that...
    "while the battle raged above the forest moon of Endor, Lumiya had begun the final test..."
    Presumably, there are two different outcomes depending on which of her masters sent her to uncover the Sith teachings...
    1. As soon as Vader was redeemed and became "Anakin" once again and turned on his former master to save his son, Palpatine could have sent his new Sith apprentice, Lumiya the signal.
    2. As soon as Vader chucked Palpatine down the chute, effectively rendering him incapacitated, he sent his new Sith apprentice, Lumiya the signal. This is still okay, because Vader died shortly after and Palpatine became a viable Sith again a bit after.

    In any case, Lumiya is the successor to the Palpatine/Vader line. Pick whether it's Vader or Palpatine and either is good. :D
  15. Peacekeeper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2001
    star 3
    Anyone knwo if kir kanos is force sensitive?
    i think he is but he doesnt know it...
    any thoughts??
  16. darth-skycrawler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2001
    star 2
    Why does everybody think that obi wan and yoda are cowards. They would have been out destroying and whipping imperiAL butt. Unfortunately omly the chosen one could kill palpy so they would have got killed. This would then me no more jedi. So they decided to get luke to turn vader so he could kill palpy. Anyway the are pretty happy to kick serious butt in the pt as we will find out.

    As for luke beating lumiya ofcourse he would he is a trained weapon who could beat vader lumiya would have had no chance.
  17. III_Vir_RPC Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 1
    Genghis12:

    Unfortunately, it is you who lacks concrete evidence to support your claims.

    According to Master Yoda in The Phantom Menace:

    Always there are two---A Master and an Apprentice. No more, no less.


    This is the Rule of Two. There are never more than two Sith of any kind in the Sith Order. Throughout the Imperial era, there were only two Sith of the Order---Darth Sidious, who was better known as Palpatine I., Galactic Emperor, and his Apprentice, Darth Vader.

    Which means, logically, that no-one else, regardless of any level of training given them, is a member of the Order. Regardless of Lord Vader's intent for Major Brie, until and unless she was recognised as an Apprentice by the reigning Master, she was not a member of the Order.

    Lumiya is indeed the heir apparent to thre Vader/Palaptine line.


    She is certainly not the heir-apparent. That term has no meaning in discussions of the Sith Order. An heir-apparent is a person whose claim to the succession to the crown is undefeatable by virtue of birth. An example of an heir-apparent is HRH The Prince of Wales; no person can be born with a stronger claim than his to the succession, and he is the heir-apparent.

    Membership of the Sith Order has nothing to do with heredity. There is no such thing as an heir-apperent to the Sith Order.

    "while the battle raged above the forest moon of Endor, Lumiya had begun the final test..."
    Presumably, there are two different outcomes depending on which of her masters sent her to uncover the Sith teachings...


    The final test of what? There are already two Sith. She cannot become a member of the Order.

    1. As soon as Vader was redeemed and became "Anakin" once again and turned on his former master to save his son, Palpatine could have sent his new Sith apprentice, Lumiya the signal.


    This scenario is obviously false, as the Emperor never contacted Lady Lumiya to become his Sith Apprentice, despite having five years in which to do so. She was obviously not his choice to be a member of the Sith Order. And as he was the Master, his choice was the only choice that mattered.

    2. As soon as Vader chucked Palpatine down the chute, effectively rendering him incapacitated, he sent his new Sith apprentice, Lumiya the signal. This is still okay, because Vader died shortly after and Palpatine became a viable Sith again a bit after.


    What in the Gates of Hell do you mean? The Emperor never spontaneously ceased being a Sith Lord, only to become one again later. He was the Sith Master from before Cloak of Deception until Empire's End. The only members of the Sith Order other than he were those whom he so designated.

    Lord Vader's actions did not make himself the new Sith Master, because (A.) Lord Vader failed to actually kill the Emperor, so the reigning Sith Master was still alive; and (B.) he was renouncing his membership of the Sith Order.

    In any case, Lumiya is the successor to the Palpatine/Vader line. Pick whether it's Vader or Palpatine and either is good.


    Lady Lumiya is not the successor to any line. She created her own Order. Which is fine---she and Lord Flint certainly are Sith, simply not of the Sith Order.

    She cannot be the legitimate successor to the Sith Order, because in order to be that, the Emperor must have recognised her as his Sith Apprentice. Lord Vader was only an Apprentice, and could not train another Apprentice. Throughout the entire time from 32 years before the Battle of Yavin IV. and nine years after, there could be only an Apprentice in addition to Lord Sidious.

    Lord Sidious did not die at the Battle of Endor. He continued to be the Sith Master until his final death on Onderon five years later. Which means, by the Rule of Two, that there could only be one other Sith Lord, an Apprentice.

    This means that both Lady Lumiya, a Master, and her Apprentices, Lord Flint and Lo
  18. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Darth Skycrawler...
    "Why does everybody think that obi wan and yoda are cowards."

    They are many things as well as cowards. They are pragmatists, they are realists and they are also cowards. Yoda taught others to live by the belief that one must always..."Do or do not. There is no try." Yoda and Obi-Wan simply did not do. They were afraid that the Emperor would destroy them, and the hope of the Jedi would be gone forever. Or put another way, if he was not afraid to do it, he would have done it.

    "They would have been out destroying and whipping imperiAL butt. Unfortunately omly the chosen one could kill palpy so they would have got killed."

    You raise two completely unrelated issues. They could have been out destroying and whipping imperiAl butt, and not attempt to kill Palpatine.

    "As for luke beating lumiya ofcourse he would he is a trained weapon who could beat vader lumiya would have had no chance."

    Again unrelated issues. Luke's training was wholly incomplete and narrowly focused. He fufilled what he was trained to do. Lumiya was also a trained weapon who fufilled what she was trained to do. They have met in man-to-(wo)man combat twice and the record is 1-1, a tie. In addition to that, Luke has already tried (unknowingly) to destroy her and failed. In addition, others have tried to destroy her and failed. Luke has just as much a chance of getting his butt handed to him as he does of succeeding.
  19. III_Vir_RPC Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 1
    Genghis12 is most correct---General Skywalker's training as a weapon does not guarantee that he would defeat Lady Lumiya.

    In fact, General Skywalker's performance against Lord Vader in combat has failed to distinguish himself. If he were a weapon, he's something of a crudely made bludgeon.

    Lady Lumiya, on the other hand, was trained by both Lord Vader and the Emperor, as well as Imperial Intelligence. The Emperor, in particular, has demonstrated great skill in training living weapons---Lord Maul, Lord Vader, Jeng Droga, &c.---and the use of a lightwhip is most likely a rather dangerous proposition, much like Lord Maul's extended 'sabre.

    Furthermore, she has demonstrated considerable resilience, and a willingness to behave in a less than honourable fashion. Compare this to the cowardly Luke Skywalker, and his low endurance (a short "sprint" of lightsabre handling winds him in Dark Tide), and thick-headed pacifism. His insistence on not taking lives whenever possible guarantees that on the off-chance that Lady Lumiya should fail to kill him, she will always have another chance.

    Being a cyborg, time is kinder to her than to her one-time beau.
  20. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    What I've seen of Lumiya's skills do not impress me.Luke kicked her ass in round 2.He left her a half naked,pathetic heap on the floor. The only reason she won the first round was because he was unprepared for the duel nature of her whip.

    Ghengis I have many of the Lumiya issues and all signs point to her being Vader's lapdog,not Palpatine's even though she was a hand.That was merely a ruse.Vader was her primary instructor.Give up on the whole "Lumiya being Palpatine's Sith apprentice"thing . :p

    Let's give Lukey boy some credit in the sabre area.His skills have vastly improved over the years.Hie's proven that time and again.

    (and Ghengis,judging from what I see in the NJO,Yoda DID NOT do a good job with Lukey boy. :p )
  21. Mateo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2001
    star 4
    That whole thing about Darth Sidious/Emperor Palpatines clone not contacting Lumiya after the battle of Endor during the 6 years he had the chance is simple:palpatine knew that lumiya would be too dangerous so he refused to waste his time and contact her, lumiya lost Flint and was hiding out probably in frequent communication with Sarcev Quest and the two of them made plans to eliminate palpatines clones using Carnor Jax as a means to an end,Nefta and Sa-Di played their own roles rather well until Sedriss killed them, it just a good thing that Sedriss never found out about Jax and Quest because they would have betrayed Lumiya to him and Palpatine and screwed up her plan.
  22. III_Vir_RPC Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 1
    Why HIM did not contact Lady Lumiya to become his Apprentice is irrelevant. The fact that he did not do so proves that she was not a legitimate member of the Sith Order, but rather the founder of a cadet line.

  23. Mateo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2001
    star 4
    Well she is the real Sith now, without Darth Sidious to get in her way so once his clones died the second sith order came crashing down and the old sith spirits on Korriban and Drommand Kas havent trained any new disciples since they screwed up with Kyle Katarn.
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    There are different Sith orders. Palpatine is following Darth Bane's rules. Lumyia formed hers based loosely on Bane's. Kun based his on Sadow's order. Palpatine had his dark side adapts. He considered her to be one. Sediuss and Kam were adapts, not Sith. He also had his Hands and C'boath. All of the Dark Jedi post Jedi, aren't Sith. Each one that was trained by Vader and Palpatine. They failed to reach their true potential. Hence, they tried to turn Luke. Since Luke, Mara, Corran and Kyle took out all of the Dark Jedi, that left only heir apparents. Like Kueller, Brakiss and Lumyia. Lumyia is the only Sith Lord/Dark Jedi left. If she's to reappear, it better be soon.
  25. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    "Palpatine had his dark side adapts. He considered her to be one. Sediuss and Kam were adapts, not Sith. He also had his Hands and C'boath."


    From info from gamer #5 and the darkside sourcebook:

    Lumiya was not a force adept, she was an emperor's hand , sith warrior (something vader, and palpy do not share.), and darth lord 5(notice that her lord status, places her just under vader's level of sith mastery of 6, right around ulic qel droma's level of mastery according to the darkside).

    Also take note that palpy was breaking the rule of 2, he had Maarek Stele training to be a sith. Maarek was sith acolyte under palpatine(see gamer #5, his character status part).

    "All of the Dark Jedi post Jedi, aren't Sith. Each one that was trained by Vader and Palpatine. They failed to reach their true potential."

    well, except, for lumiya and her apprentices, maarek stele, Irek Ismaren(training sith ways using ancient scrolls of mechuderu.). there really aren't any more sith out there, unless someone get's trained from another source.

    "Hence, they tried to turn Luke. Since Luke, Mara, Corran and Kyle took out all of the Dark Jedi, that left only heir apparents. Like Kueller, Brakiss and Lumyia. Lumyia is the only Sith Lord/Dark Jedi left. If she's to reappear, it better be soon."

    Kueller, and brakiss are only dark jedi, not sith at all.

    But you are right about lumiya. Also note darkside companion lets it known that there are a lot of Dark Side witches out there at the time of NJO.
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