Discussion Luke Skywalker's New (or Old) Jedi Order?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by Dra---, Aug 19, 2013.

  1. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    What's the best way for Luke to reconstitute the Jedi in the ST? What rules should he change? What rules should he keep?

    (You can skip the rest if it's too long for you. :))

    This recent article got me thinking again how flawed the PT Jedi were and what a huge mistake it would be for Luke (or the writers) to reconstitute the new Jedi Order according to its old rules. People are quick to critique their teachings against attachment and mourning, but I think the biggest error was to serve as a military force for the Republic; even as peacekeepers.

    First off, I think the order should learn to operate independently from the Republic. This will allow them to use the force as they see fit, rather than having to compromise their values to corrupt political concerns (or Sith Masters!).

    Secondly, I'm not so easily sold on axing the attachment teachings as the writer in the above article. For example, allowing Jedi children to stay in their families sounds nice, but it's not necessarily a better option than the Jedi raising them. If Jedi families or clans are allowed to develop, a more intense level of conflict that includes everything we know about family feuds and sibling rivalries would likely develop.

    Thirdly, do not return to Coruscant. It involves the Jedi in too much political intrigue when they would be better off out in the galaxy relieving pain and suffering. The Jedi could have an ambassador to the Senate, but they would serve only an informational function. Tattooine would be my pick. The Skywalkers have a legacy there, it would provide a rigorous training ground for apprentices, and give us a justifiable reason to return there.

    Fourth, what else do you think should be changed or stay the same?

    I'm hoping we can keep the discussion based primarily on the films, but maybe some of TCW on TV will be relevant as well.
    Last edited by Dra---, Aug 19, 2013
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  2. The Hellhammer 7SA Forum Interrogator

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    I would expect that in the 30 to 40 years that have passed since ROTJ that Luke has been able to gain a lot of information and knowledge about the history of the Jedi Order. I would also expect that he would learn from their mistakes. The first big assumption here is that Luke would even reform the Jedi Order as such, or to put it more precisely - that he would have already reformed the Order by the time of Episode 7. He might well have spent those years honing his own skills, learning as much as he can about the Jedi, the Force, the universe and everything else. Yes, Yoda says to "pass on what he has learned" but the question is - does Luke feel ready to pass on what he has learned? Does he feel confident enough in his own skills to immediately start training a new batch of Jedi? Those are some interesting questions, and we might well find Luke still in the process of struggling with them.
    Of course, the other option is that he has reformed the Jedi Order. Depending on the rules he decides to follow, this order can number in hundreds or be barely a dozen Jedi. The interesting thing to consider is that even if Luke begins gathering young students as late as ten years after ROTJ, those students can now easily be in their late teens or early/mid twenties. Even thirties. That again raises the question does Luke just train students from a young age or accepts all ages, as was the case in EU?
    Many variables to take into account, hah.
    My own personal hope is that Luke's potential Jedi Order would be far less dogmatic than the Old Order. Students would be encouraged to take more action, to be more involved while at the same time staying out of politics as much as possible. They would not sit in their ivory tower and meditate about this and that, they would go out into the galaxy and do things, actually make a difference in everyday lives of the sentients that populate the universe. This more open Jedi Order should be different from the Old Order in even the most basic of things, like clothing. More variety, not everyone has to wear a bathrobe their whole lives. More saber colors, for example. More open discussions about what course of action should be taken and so on.
    Of course, this does not mean that they should reject everything that the Old Order stood for. Let's say that they should be more flexible and adaptible to the times they live in.
    Last edited by The Hellhammer, Aug 19, 2013
  3. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
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    I think we can expect to see some type of Jedi institution in Episode VII i.e. it's not just going to be Luke and a couple of others. I would imagine that it will be set on Coruscant as the filmmakers will want to integrate the imagery from the PT with the ST - and Coruscant is a great fantasy location. I'd agree that we've already had 3 films of Senate debates and Jedi meetings, so I don't think we'll get that to the level we got in the prequels... and I would expect to see some form of Jedi Academy (at Yavin IV or other). Interestingly we've not had a real extensive jungle setting in a Star Wars film yet... so Yavin IV may well be ideal.

    As for the Jedi modus operandi - yes less beurocratic and dogmatic. They will embrace the 'living force' like Qui-Gon did and be much more attuned to their feelings and emotions. Jedi hippies perhaps... ;)
  4. vypernight Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 2
    If he does reform the Jedi order, I hope this order functions better than the one in the EU. The PT order could continue even if Yoda and Mace suddenly dropped dead. In EU though, if Luke left the room for five minutes, the masters, who are supposed to set the example for younger Jedi, would get into lightsaber fights over the what shade of brown their robes were!

    Please tell me that, if we do get an E7 NJO (the order itself, not the book series) that its members have some semblance of wisdom.
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  5. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
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    That's because Rule of Drama hit hard. In a long running series at one point they will add drama for the sake of it, no matter the cost.

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfDrama


    "Essentially, when the writers run out of drama, they must invent ways to force drama into undramatic situations. When handled poorly, this leads to unusual, irrational, or highly improbable scenarios which only exist for the sake of prolonging the conflict."

    See also any long-running comic book series ever made for reference.
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  6. StoneRiver Force Ghost

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    Oct 6, 2004
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    I won't repeat what has already been said above, as they say it very nicely for me. (see my likes)

    To further the Jedi hippies thang;

    How about they have to train to be a Jedi and that's what the academy will be used for, but then they live their own lives while still following a revised Jedi code? But remaining on call for Jedi updates, meetings, if required for some action, etc.

    Totally agree they should dress how they want to dress. Not sure about adding sabre colours though.
  7. jedijax Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2013
    star 4
    It would be interesting if they took a look at the effect of having no emotional attachments had on the Jedi order.

    It would be interesting if new Jedi are given more freedoms to openly be emotionally attached, thus causing such things as jealousy, anger, and hostility, leading to many of them falling to the dark side.

    I've imagined Jedi training taking place on a paradise-like planet (be it Yavin IV or wherever) and having a beautiful and secluded place for R&R. However, in that spot lies a realic in the past that acts as a sort of Biblical apple analogy that tempts young padawans. Little do they know that realic, disguised as a sort of waterfall or whatnot, magnifies feelings of anger and rage. Once a tipping point is reached, it will cause those who cannot contain their emotions to fall to the dark side, thus splitting the Jedi order from the inside.
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  8. Sarge Chosen One

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    Oct 4, 1998
    star 4
    Agreed that the Jedi should not be a political tool. But the problem with making the order independent of the Republic is, who supports the Jedi? Where do they get the funds to operate? At a minimum, they'll need transportation to all the trouble spots the Force will lead them to, and that doesn't come cheap. It's possible the problem will be glossed over, but I'd like to know where their credits come from if not from the taxpayers.
  9. TtheForceHurts Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2010
    star 3
    The whole Skywalker saga is based around a family/line strong in the force. Since Luke is (one of) the last Jedi in EPVI and we know that he has inherited his force affinity, like his sister, it would be weird if they would keep the celibacy, after all they have to swell their numbers... If it was known that force affinity was genetic it was weird in the first place that the jedi (and Sith) would wait for freak genetic mutations to spawn new force sensitive beings, rather than raise their own children. If being a jedi only involved a certain lifestyle (like Shaolin monks) it would make sense to enforce celibacy (to get rid of out of the order attachments), but since it is rather a genetic trait, it does not really make sense (especially for the Sith, why do the Sith Lords not simply take their offspring as apprentices).
    Otherwise I have to concur that they should no longer be the military/peacekeeper of the republic, but should rather have their own seat in the senate with Leia as Jedi representative.
    Tatooine/Dagobah/Yavin/Endor/Hoth would all qualify to harbor the new Jedi academies, though I have the nagging feeling that they will rather rebuild the temple on Coruscant or Onderon (or if the EU of that place is toast a place with a similar history). Since they have used a planet from the EU before (Coruscant) I hope we could get Onderon/Korriban or Dathomir (Dathomir being already in TCW has good chances).
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  10. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    My guess is that the Bane-era Sith didn't want family ties- because they saw them as a risk- love being something that can make a Sith less "dark"- and distract them from the overall goal of Achieving Power.

    The Lost Tribe of the Sith, however, seemed to manage it fairly well.
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  11. LunarMoth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2012
    star 4
    I would say that Luke would be a more Qui-Gon-like Jedi than a Yoda-like Jedi. Just as Qui-Gons out of the box approach to Jedi-ism resulted in powerful and much needed re-teaching, Luke's willingness to break the rules led to a light side victory that otherwise would not likely have happened.

    This being said, here are a couple things I would think are possible about Luke's Jedi Order:

    1. I could see Luke not wanting the Jedi Order to be affiliated with the government. Instead, the Jedi might act in a mediation role between conflicting sides, but would be its own thing without official allegiance to anyone.

    2. The above being the case, I would see a limited number of Jedi. Perhaps a small council and nothing more. A dozen or so....

    3. Attachments would be encouraged in the sense that caring about something is the best provider of strength to defend it. Having something worth fighting for.

    Based on No. 1 above, I would like there to be a little tension between Luke and Leia, assuming that Leia is part of the New Republic, and wants the Jedi on her side.
    Last edited by LunarMoth, Aug 19, 2013
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  12. Echo-07 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2012
    star 4
    I think the New Jedi Order will have been molded -- to whatever extent we see it in the ST -- with the aid of Force Ghosts. I think Luke will have communed with Obi-Wan and Yoda and they will give him some insight as to what ocurred beforehand; what worked and what didn't. So when we see the NJO and I don't think it will really be that big when E7 begins these are some of the things I suspect we could see:

    1- Yes to "NO Coruscant." = I love the idea of a Jedi Ambassador, a liason between the Jedi and the Galactic Senate or whatever.
    2- The Temple = Obviously the Jedi Temple on Coruscant is abandoned as it is now dominated by the Dark Side. Perhaps the thing has even been razed I would hope. I believe that the NJO should be HQ'd on either TYTHON and tie-in the ancient history of the Jedi which could also be used for any Old Republic era movies in the future OR Yavin.
    3- Padawans = I do hope that Luke keeps the tradition of Padawan learners, that they have short cropped hair and braids etc... However, I could see him easing the rule of two Master & apprentice. He may need to as their may be wayyy more force sensitives than Master to train them. I think that is obvious.
    4- The Solos & Skywalkers = By extension of #3 I could see Luke taking the Solo and Skywalker offspring however that shakes out as his own Padawans. We may indeed see other Jedi Master (1 or 2 or so) but Luke will have been the trainer for his family I believe.
    5- Luke is the Ultimate Jedi Master. ALL other Jedi will have been trained by him.
    6- A Jedi Council = I don't know if a hard and fast council will or should exist. I think that is part of the dogma that may have been jettisoned.

    7- Peacekeepers = This is tricky. It sounds as if there is blame on the Jedi for being willing pawns of the Sith, which isn't the case. But I don't see their primary purpose being altered that much from what they've always been. They're the Police. They're Shaolin fighting monks.

    With the news rumors of Force Ghosts and Sith I think there could be abolute mayhem in the galaxy when E7 begins. I believe that Supreme Chancellor Leia will have to call on the Jedi to help the New Republic army. I expect that the vacuum left by the empire has created a Civil War the Rebels never anticipated as Mandalorians, Crime Lords (Hutts or Black Sun-like org) and the Imperial Remnants duke it out for control. Perhaps while this is going on the Sith quietly rise again.
  13. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Hopefully no Temple on Coruscant.
    More interaction with the common people,
    Different design of the clothes. No uniformity of robes,
    More interaction with family.
    The Order is small but wants to help the whole galaxy etc.
  14. MiamiJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 1
    Luke's Jedi order should focus on a middle way path to avoid the excesses of the Jedi and Sith teachings.
  15. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    I think Luke will be in the midst of rebuilding the Jedi Order when the ST begins. I think it's going to take a lot longer than 30 years for a fully functional Jedi Order to establish itself so I think part of the ST will be about the Jedi regaining some of the trust that may have been lost with the general population after everything thats happened and Luke setting them up to move on without him. I hope to see many challenges for Luke's order and opposition to any kind of order from some in the political arena. I hope to see many questions raised and answered throughout the ST. Like what role should they play in galactic affairs? When is it right for the Jedi to fight a war? Is it right for Jedi to interfere without Senate oversight? Here's some general things I'd like to see:

    -A small Jedi Order comprising a hundred or so Jedi Knights.
    -The Jedi Order has no central HQ like the Temple on Coruscant but they can be gathered together in times of emergency.
    -Luke is the nominal leader of the Order but really the masters and knights are spread throughout the galaxy fighting injustices where they crop up mostly on their own authority.
    -The order isn't fully accepted by the government and public at this point so they are more of a hidden organization. Many of them are "hiding" in plain sight in occupations like pilots, soldiers, politicians, etc.
    -Luke has relaxed the no attachment rule but hasn't fully abandoned it. Basically, he allows each and every Jedi to make their own choice in the matter. Some take the vow while others have families.

    Since Lucas has stated that a theme of the ST will be knighthood I'd really like a focus on the master/apprentice relationship. We see glimpses of it in the PT and OT but I would love to see this relationship fully explored with Luke and his students. I would love to see Luke training a group of young Jedi Padawans but eventually I think it should focus on his relationship with his son/daughter or niece/nephew. I don't want to just hear about Luke passing on what he's learned but actually witness it as he takes his young Padawan all the way to knighthood when they are finally ready to face the main threat of the trilogy on their own. By the end of trilogy Luke has finally fulfilled Yoda's last command and his Jedi Order are once more the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy.
  16. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    The perfect number would be twelve. Twelve Jedi like at Arthurs round table. You could flesh out some of them real nice and have the other be basic templates. It's a believable number and every Jedi could be made really unique (not just different looks but different background and beliefs).

    Jedi KNIGHTS were every Jedis voice carries equal weight. Enough with the monkishness already. Give me some knights!

    Knights of course also don't live on comfy Coruscant but rather a wilder, more dangerous place like Yavin 4.
  17. The Hellhammer 7SA Forum Interrogator

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    Yeah, they should definetly be more like righteous warriors this time around. Of course, not just brute force (Force?) and whack everything with the saber, they should retain their philosophical element as well - one does not exclude the other. But they should definetly play a more active role in making the galaxy a better place.

    EDIT - This is tempting me to reinstall The Old Republic and roll a Jedi Guardian haha.
    Last edited by The Hellhammer, Aug 19, 2013
  18. Immortiss Force Ghost

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    Mar 10, 2013
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    I think it would be interesting if there were dissension within the Order itself. Perhaps Luke isn't the head of the council. That would make sense democratically. George Washington stepped down. Luke is not a King. I always assumed Yoda was the head in the PT, but it was Mace who lead the council, right?

    It could be an interesting problem/plot point if Luke and the Council lost contact, or were unable to commune with their elders. Luke dies, believing he'll be more powerful than he can possibly imagine, and his body does not disappear. This would cause mystery, isolation and more importantly, give the new protagonists purpose. Keeping the ST free of Force Ghosts would make their eventual appearance more meaningful, allow for the new protagonists to grow, and keep the writers from embarrassing themselves with a script full of ghosts.

    There could be another crisis in the the Jedi Order without Luke's leadership and the inability of remaining Jedi to make contact with their leader and elders in the Netherworld, discovering that the Force itself is diminished or dying.
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  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
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    I know that the king title implies differently, but the idea of the roundtable (at least in many versions of the story), is that at the roundtable the kings word is just as important as that of any knight. Equality. I would just find that so fitting for the Jedi, especially considering how George liked to adapt old mythological themes.
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  20. Darth PJ Force Ghost

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    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    I really can't see that they'll be much political debate in Ep VII... be it in the form of senators or Jedi. I would imagine a new Jedi order will either already exist or it will be in the process of being established. Either way, don't expect much internal debate in the movie about the philosophies of the Jedi order (other than high level/brief exposition).
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  21. Pro Scoundrel Force Ghost

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    Nov 20, 2012
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    I'm hoping for a different jedi order than what we've seen before. Something new to learn about. Something less predictable. Growth.
  22. Dra--- Chosen One

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    Dec 30, 2012
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    Good point, @Sarge. I was wondering if the Jedi could find donors, like some independent aid groups do. I would imagine they would depend greatly philanthropists.

    Would there also be ways for the Jedi to earn wealth? They would certainly find great wealth during their adventures, like the Templars did. Whether it would be ethical to keep it is another story. Would it ruin the Jedi's independence to accept money from clients? Maybe. Although we've seen private eyes with strong moral codes bring down guilty clients when necessary.

    @TtheForceHurts

    I think the Jedi would be against the genetic creation of force sensitives because they would foresee the problems with it: clan feuds, a quick path to the darkside. But the Sith is a better question. My answer: Sith don't want to have children as apprentices because it might stop them from killing them when necessary. Their love for their children might actually lead them from the darkside.

    @TtheForceHurts

    Training new Jedi on Korriban or a darkside heavy planet is very interesting to me. That would allow the Jedi to master the darkside, and even protect a key location from being a Sith base. But it would also open the possibility for some dangerous events like mass possession or Sith influence. Then again, Buffy hung out directly above a Hellmouth...
    Last edited by Dra---, Aug 19, 2013
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  23. jedijax Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2013
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    I think that will be the point. For 30 years the new Republic will have been weary and many would still possibly blame all of the wars on the Jedi and the Force because many would not understand the difference between the dark and light side. Kinda like nations fighting over religion. So the Jedi would need to be called into action on their own accord, building trust within the galaxy.
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  24. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    I don't think the films really need to get into how Luke's order finances itself. This is a fantasy series so minutiae like that doesn't really need an explanation.
  25. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
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    *A loose, more flexible Order, but also one that doesn't "bend the rules." For example, Anakin steals a speeder in AOTC–no biggie. Skywalker's kid in VII steals a speeder–Luke wails on him, tells him not to do it again. One of the biggest in-universe complaints I've seen is that the Jedi are willing to break the law to enforce the law.

    *Forget the stupid no-attachments rule. Marriages, relationships, and kids allowed. And don't do the old Order's oh-you-have-a-Force-sensitive-kid-so-you're-fired junk. If a Temple employee has a Force-sensitive kid, the employee keeps working there. Firing them is not only cold and cruel, but also shows an uncaringness of minor goods in favor of more Jedi.

    *Temple on Yavin IV, Dagobah, or even an EU world like Tython or Ossus, instead of Coruscant. It seems, whenever the Jedi get that big, shiny Temple on Coruscant, their heads inflate and they forget the actual purpose of the Order. They become political puppets. [face_sick]

    *Lightsaber colors. Purple should be more common, and yellow and orange should appear at least a few times. I, personally, want the main character to have a yellow saber. That's just me, though.