Discussion Luke Skywalker's New (or Old) Jedi Order?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by Dra---, Aug 19, 2013.

  1. plaidphoenix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2013
    star 4
    There's centralizing the Jedi into one Order and then there's having the Order serve the Republic. That's an important distinction.

    Now, for Episode VII on, we could see
    A centralized Order serving a centralized Republic
    A decentralized Order serving a centralized Republic
    A centralized Order serving a decentralized Republic
    or A decentralized Order serving a decentralized Republic

    I think that whatever happens, Luke needs to be fully aware of the mistakes made by both the Jedi Council and the Senate in the PT. He needs to know that Jedi, both as individuals and as a group are capable of making mistakes and that any system of government is capable of corruption.
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  2. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    The EU is so vast that pretty much everything that could be done with SW was done there. We can't expect the ST to not mirror some EU stuff put out there.
  3. Pro Scoundrel Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    But, there was no Republic in the OT. Everything the Jedi did in those films was autonomous. In the galaxy the Empire was the law. On Tatooine Jabba was the law. Didn't stop Obi-wan and Luke from doing what they thought was right, and I have no problem with that in a fantasy film. In "The Seven Samurai", the Samurai had no authority whatsoever to help those villagers, but they did it anyway.
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  4. plaidphoenix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2013
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    I wouldn't say they were acting completely autonomously. We don't actually see it in just the OT, but it's fair to say Obi-Wan was at least acting under the guidance of Yoda and Qui-Gon, both of whom were his teachers and one of which was the last remaining member of the Jedi council.
  5. Pro Scoundrel Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    That's still the jedi acting on their own authority, and not answering to a government.
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  6. Fastback Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2014
    star 1
    ^ True and that was what Anakin in TCW was trying to say that the Jedi Order should not be confined by the Republic Senate, Chancellor. The Jedi Order in PT was loyal to the republic while being decieved by Palpatine the whole time till it was too late. The Jedi Oder was defeated not only by Palpatine and Anakin turned Vader but by their own blindness by being too much lighside. They were cold and did not understand those around them or the galaxy to see what was really going on but only saw things were cloudy not sure. Luke studied all this and he does what he can to prevent a down fall of the Jedi Oder again.
  7. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 5
    The police analogy isn't very good. Should we call Spiderman a police officer when he saves someone?

    The Will of the Force is a more universal foundation for moral action than any government. It's important to recognize that the Jedi have a metaphysical connection to a moral center that others don't. For that reason, they aren't comparable to governments or police forces.
    Last edited by Dra---, Apr 4, 2014
  8. Jedsithor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 4
    I should jump back in here. What I'm saying isn't just that there should be no centralised order, but also that the Jedi should have no role in galactic politics or security. I tend to imagine that way back in the beginning, when the Jedi saved the galaxy from the Sith, that they ended up as guardians of the Republic because at the time, the Republic couldn't sustain itself without them. I'm sure the Jedi wanted to free the galaxy and then fade away into the ether and ended up in a position of permanent power that they never wanted, a position that ultimately set the stage for their downfall.

    In a post-Empire galaxy, I think there would be a strong desire to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past. That would mean dismantling the old Imperial war machine, writing a new constitution that would prevent individuals from acquiring too much power and corporate interests from having too much influence. It would also mean re-examining the role of the Jedi in the restored Republic. Thirty years is a long time but in the grand scheme of things, it's the blink of an eye. Even if the Jedi were going to have a role in the Republic, there wouldn't be enough time for Luke to build up a Jedi Order to the point where it would be useful. There would only be a handful of Jedi in existence. So we need to stop thinking of a Jedi Order the way the prequels presented the Jedi. Any Jedi organisation would be small and there would likely be even less Jedi in the galaxy than there were when the old Order was first formed.
  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10

    No, but you are one when you become part of that organization.

    Not quite. Leia tells Obi-wan that since she cannot bring him to Alderaan, that he must find a way to get there and make sure that Artoo is safe and sound, as he contains the Death Star plans. Leia, representing the Alliance, gave Obi-wan his marching orders.

    LEIA: "General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars. Now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire. I regret that I am unable to present my father's request to you in person, but my ship has fallen under attack and I'm afraid my mission to bring you to Alderaan has failed. I have placed information vital to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2 unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-wan Kenobi, you're my only hope."

    To which he then gives to Luke when he tells him to take over for him, if he falls.

    BEN: "Be patient, Luke. Stay and watch over the droids."

    LUKE: "But he can..."

    BEN: "They must be delivered safely or other star systems will suffer the same fate as Alderaan."

    In TESB, he follows orders from command to lead Rogue Squadron into battle, but he's also gained permission to leave as soon as they're away. As to ROTJ, Luke is working with Leia and Lando to rescue Han. They were given leave to do so by Mon Mothma. Later on, Luke volunteers to go to Endor as part of the command crew for the strike team.

    Except that goes against both what's in the films and what Lucas has said. The Jedi and the Republic form a sybmiant circle. What affects one affects the other. The Jedi chose to use their power in service of the Republic, which wasn't wrong. What was wrong was that they didn't change and adapt, thus allowing the cancer known as the Sith to infect the Republic and the Jedi Order. Anakin was the instrument that removed said cancer. The Jedi were not blind because of the light, but because of the dark. The dark side grew stronger over the years and their ability to use the Force and foresee events was diminished.
  10. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    Sure, but they didn't do anything. And in 7 Samurai they are Ronin and basically soldiers of Fortune. IS that what the Jedi will be?

    It snot fair to say that. We have ZERO evidence that Obi-wan and Yoda were in contact at all, or that Qui-Gon did anything other then teach Obi-wan stuff.


    The Spider-man analogy just shows how different people view someone doing what THEY feel is right causes problems. Spider-man is an American, grew up in New York city, and other people in New York City STILL can't agree if he is doing good or bad. As I said, introduce more cultures and religions and species etc.........

    Who says everyone and every culture would agree with the "Will of the Force"?
  11. Pro Scoundrel Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    Obi-Wan isn't ordered, he's begged for help. Luke doesn't ask permission to leave, that's in a deleted scene only. The Alliance has no authority over the jedi, they simply choose to help them. Luke deserts on Endor to face Vader and the Emperor. Han was in charge of that mission, and he doesn't tell him he's leaving. The Jedi do what they think is right, not because someone has any authority over them.
  12. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    If you see someone who requires medical attention and you end up giving them attention that their culture and/or religion forbids them from taking/accepting, are you in the right or wrong? Do you have the right to decide what action should be taken in that situation? What if we dropped you in a completely different culture, would you have to right to impose your beliefs on the people there? Would you be happy if someone from a different culture did that to you?

    The point, however, is that you wouldn't want someone from North Korea taking action against you based on THEIR values.

    The Jedi being organzied and linked to the government gives them legitmacy, a set of rules and laws that apply to EVERYONE to go by etc...

    The Seperatists weren't defending themselves. And once the Jedi did arrive?
  13. plaidphoenix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2013
    star 4
    We may not have direct evidence, but we do have indirect evidence. At the end of ROTS, Yoda reveals to Obi-Wan that Qui-Gon

    Now perhaps Yoda and Obi-Wan cannot communicate directly with one another before Obi-Wan's death on the DS in ANH, but it's strongly implied by what Yoda says that Qui-Gon has the ability to communicate with both of them, and as such, pass messages back and forth between them. Now, it's fair to say that by the time of the OT, Obi-Wan are probably a lot closer to being equals then they were in the the PT, but it's also fair to say that Obi-Wan is almost always going to defer to Yoda's judgement given their respective posistions both on the council and in the Jedi Order prior to Order 66 and the fact that Obi-Wan recognizes that Yoda has vastly more experience in both being a Jedi and teaching Jedi then he would have ever obtained had the Republic and Jedi Order not fallen.
  14. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    They are legitimized by law, that's a good point. Not all the laws of all regimes are just. Not so long ago in my own home country you could legitimately beat your children if they misbehaved. Teachers had a stick of wood with which the punished unruly students. Did the children want the teacher committing the lawfully sanctioned act of beating them with a stick? Probably not.

    The republic's laws don't seem so great either. The clones are basically slaves and nobody gives a damn about that.
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  15. Jedsithor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 4

    There's nothing inherently wrong with the Jedi choosing to serve the Republic. The issue is in how they serve. By the end of the Clone Wars, Palpatine had manipulated events to a point where the Jedi were making plans to remove him from office and take command of the Senate. Sure, it was to protect the Republic and only to oversee the transition back to democracy with the election of a new chancellor, but if the Jedi had been able to remove Palpatine, how could they in good conscience have stopped there? They weren't blind to the corruption in the Senate. If they removed Palpatine, how many others would they have to remove from office to ensure a return to true democracy? What about the corporate interests? They were largely responsible for the separatist movement. If the Jedi, in temporary control, deemed that the influence of the corporate interests was too strong, would they force regulation through the Senate? Would they go further and use their clone army to police them? And what of the Separatists themselves? They're going to lose the war but could they be welcomed back? Could they be trusted to tow the line? Or would their military and economic assets be completely dismantled to a point where they would simply collapse for the greater good of the Republic?

    "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." - Master Yoda

    That possible path doesn't even take Palpatine's identity as a Sith Lord into consideration. As far as the Jedi know, Palpatine is a politician who doesn't want to give up his power. But a Sith Lord? Consider Mace Windu's final moments. He battles Sidious and eventually defeats him (maybe...). What does he decide to do? Execute him. Then and there. Is it the right thing to do? Well Mace is correct when he says that Sidious has control of the Senate and the Courts. But it's not the Jedi way. Mace will do what has to be done. But he's doing it out of fear. Just as Palpatine tried to get Luke to strike his father down in anger, Mace is going to strike Sidious down in fear. In that final moment of Mace's life, it's my belief that he's fallen to the Dark Side. Fear has consumed him. Justified fear, sure. But fear nonetheless. Now, imagine Anakin hadn't intervened. Imagine Mace had killed Sidious. Everything I said above about how far the Jedi might have to go to secure the future of the Republic suddenly becomes amplified. The chancellor wasn't just power-hungry, he was a Sith. Suddenly, anyone who has ever been close to Palpatine is a threat. There's no telling how many minds may have been warped, not just in the Senate, but also in the Jedi. After all, he turned the great Count Dooku to the Dark Side. Now the Jedi Order isn't driven by righteousness, it's driven by fear and even with Palpatine dead and the Sith line broken, they have had their revenge. They can't escape it. The likes of Yoda and Obi-Wan would know that it's wrong to take control of the Republic and purge it of Sith influence, but they don't have a choice.

    It shows the brilliance of Palpatine's plan. Even if his Clone War strategy had failed, the Jedi and the Republic would still be doomed. As tragic as the end of the Jedi Order and the rise of the Empire was, you could argue that it was necessary in the long run. So whatever role Luke's Jedi have in preserving the Republic, it would need to be different to what went before, otherwise, the 25 years of Imperial rule would be for nothing because eventually, the same thing would happen again.
  16. purplerain Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    What about trying to assassinate a Republic Senator?
    Last edited by purplerain, Apr 5, 2014
  17. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Assassinating one senator of thousands would be like assassinating the major of a town. Not cause for all-out war.
  18. mattman8907 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2012
    star 4
    watching the winter soldier there was a scene where steve rogers was giving a speech and i could imagine luke or the main st protangoinst giving the same speech to the jedi and the republic.
  19. plaidphoenix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2013
    star 4
    Tell that to Archduke Franz Ferdinand and Gavrilo Princip.
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  20. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The Alliance system didn't help that either.
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  21. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Erm yes, comparing the crown prince of the K&K empire to some senator of thousands = fail. And even then war wasn't immediately declared but only after the emperor was basically forced by his underlings to do so.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Apr 6, 2014
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    And he goes because he and Yoda had a plan with Bail, that they would help him if he needed it.

    Its implied in the film that Luke had to ask permission to leave.


    Luke told Leia who tells Han and Han trusts Luke.

    The difference between the Jedi and the Sith is the difference between the light and the dark side of the Force. If the Jedi really wanted to rule, they would have done so centuries ago. Especially after the last conflict with the Sith when the Republic was fragmented due to the Sith taking control. The Jedi did because they believed in the will of the people to rule, rather than the Jedi Order. By removing Palpatine, they would let a new Chancellor be elected and then the Chancellor would have control over the Senate and the Jedi would return to being what they were. They were going to see that proper elections were held and that no one would try to seize control through force or bribery. This was a last resort of action because they wanted Palpatine to give up control on his own and call for an election. They didn't want to go in like that, which is why Yoda warned them of the path they were treading. It was the very thing that they had chided the fallen Jedi against.

    I am aware of it. Though Mace hadn't turned yet. To become a Sith Lord, you must willing crave power and surrender to the dark side. Anakin doesn't turn until that moment. Luke attacking his father didn't turn him. He was on the verge of it, but he wasn't far gone yet. Mace's actions were both right and wrong. That was the moral grayness of what the PT was about. Even though it would affect the Jedi if Mace had gone through with it, it needed to be done.
  23. Pro Scoundrel Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    1. Yes, but they are not under anyone's orders to do so. They do it because it's the right thing to do.
    2. When? Where? Not even Han asks permission to leave, he just tells them he's leaving. Luke doesn't even tell anyone. Someone even yells "See you at the rendezvous, Luke.", implying that they didn't know he wasn't regrouping with them.
    3. Yes, Luke told her, he didn't ask permission of anyone. He comes and goes as he pleases in those films.
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  24. plaidphoenix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2013
    star 4
    The point I was trying to make is that the right assassin killing the right target at the right time can cause chaos and war. Yes, in a system of government that would span tens, if not hundreds of thousands of planets, most senators would effectively be worker drones, but find the right one to kill and you can set in motion a chain of events that will lead to war. Imagine how the PT would have turned out differently if the assassination attempt on Padme at the beginning of AOTC had been successful. Granted it wasn't successful and couldn't be because the story required she not die at that point in the story, but what if she had?
  25. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    It would cause a TIME PARADOX.
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