Discussion Luke Skywalker's New (or Old) Jedi Order?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by Dra---, Aug 19, 2013.

  1. Jedsithor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 4
    And Luke went to Cloud City to help his friends. It doesn't matter how noble the intent is. Of course the Jedi don't want to rule. But what if they find themselves in a position where they have to rule? Where simply transitioning to a new government would only allow the rot at the core of the Republic to continue? I'm not saying that Yoda would have made himself Emperor or that the Jedi would have oppressed the galaxy. As you said, stepping in was a last resort but if the Jedi did go down that path, the temptation to use their power to set things right would have been all around them and it's a position they never should have been in. So when I say there should be no Jedi Order in the new movies, aside from the obvious lack of numbers Luke would have, he'd also have to learn the lessons of the old Order and ensure that his Jedi wouldn't be put in the same position, where they're serving a corrupt Senate, leading an army into a war based on a lie and allowing themselves to be wholly outplayed by their greatest enemy without them even knowing that enemy existed and was literally staring them in the face. The only way to make that happen is to remove the Jedi from the system altogether. This is the start of a brand new era for the Jedi. Luke may have trained a few in the 30 years since Endor but it's still very early days and he should still be figuring out how his Jedi are going to serve and how he will avoid the mistakes of his predecessors. That's not to say that the Jedi can't have a role. I imagine Luke would have some sort of advisory role within the Republic, but I don't think his Jedi should be the galactic peacekeepers the old Jedi were.



    There's a difference between turning to the Dark Side and being a Sith. Of course Mace wasn't a Sith. But neither was Luke when he almost struck Vader down. Remember, the choice Mace made was the same choice Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to make. They didn't want him to reason with Vader or plead with Vader to abandon the Emperor. They wanted Luke to kill Vader. Of course their reasons were just as was their cause. But it was still the wrong choice as Luke ultimately showed. Two decades after the fall of the Republic, the wisest and last of the old Jedi still had the same fear and were still blind to the simple truth that only Luke saw - there's still good in him. Now, I'm not saying that there was good in Palpatine or even that he should have been spared. Palpatine had to be stopped and the system couldn't be trusted to deal with him. But it was still a Jedi Knight acting out of fear and going against the Jedi Code. Remember what Palpatine said when Anakin killed Dooku - he was too dangerous to be left alive. Mace said the exact same thing about Palpatine. When a Jedi is thinking the same way as a Sith, you know there's something wrong. The callback with that line wasn't coincidental. In that moment, Mace let his fear consume him and he paid the price. In attempting to strike Palpatine down, Mace did the wrong thing for the right reason. In intervening, Anakin did the right thing for the wrong reason and in the end they both suffered.

    If Luke's Jedi are to survive and thrive, they can't be the same as the Jedi of old. The old Order may have lasted for thousands of years but it ended in utter failure.
  2. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 5
    Why should the Jedi care? They have a direct connection to right and wrong that transcends culture and politics.

    The Jedi follow universal Truth and that trumps cultural relativism.

    The biggest mistake the Jedi can make is to serve an institution whose values might not always be their own. This is why I think the Jedi should function as an independent organization, sort of like the Banking Clan or the Trade Federation. That way they can argue for the Will of the Force in the Senate and make it clear what side of disputes they are on, rather than just serving as the military force of monetary and political interests.
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  3. plaidphoenix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2013
    star 4
    Well, they have a connection to what they perceive to be right and wrong as well as what they think is the universal Truth. This is part of why Dooku left the Jedi Order and Qui-Gon was giving some members of the Council migraines.
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  4. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 5
    Just to be clear, I'm a cultural relativist when it comes to meaning in our world. But in SW they have something called the Will of the Force, and when the Jedi are connected to it, they intuitively know what to do, how to decide between right and wrong.

    So I have no idea why Lucas or anyone else would want beings with this kind of metaphysical connection to serve as a police or military force for politicians.
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  5. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    Except that they didn't have that role until the Clone Wars which they were maneuvered into by a Sith Lord who was in the process of changing the role of the Jedi in the galaxy in order to set them up for their fall. Initially, their role was more diplomatic, albeit with the ability to use violence as a diplomatic tool when necessary.
  6. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    The Jedi should all be Stalinists.
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  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Because he was asked to go.

    Han was quitting the Alliance to go back to his civilian life. He made no bones that he was never going to stay forever. He stayed because of Luke and Leia, not for their revolution. Running into Skorr on Ord Mantell, prior to the start of TESB made him change his mind.

    Wedge said that. Luke informed General Rieekan.


    That's arguing semantics.



    What does that have to do with anything?



    The only way the Jedi would be tempted is if the Council members had fallen to the dark side and by ROTS, that wasn't an issue. The Jedi who became Sith long ago did so because they craved power long before the corruption had set in. They disliked being the servants when they could use their power to rule. That is what separates the Jedi from the Sith and for centuries the two exist as they have. So long as the Council exists, the corruption won't set in. As to the post Endor Republic, Luke will most likely resume having the Jedi working with the Senate, but will probably avoid having his students be soldiers. They'd help out in the war as before, but not in the same capacity.

    Except you miss the point which is that Anakin was played right from the start. Palpatine knew that if he didn't succeed in turning Anakin before Mace would kill him, everything would be lost. That's why he lied and said that he was weak and couldn't stop Mace from killing him, after manipulating him into changing his mind about arresting him. Anakin made a choice that was wrong. It was never the right reason. He did it purely so he could keep Palpatine alive and pump him for information, per Lucas's own words. He himself was going to kill Palpatine not a half hour earlier, but stopped only because of his greed and his fears. Anakin only justifies his betrayal as being for the good of the Republic, because that's the only way he can accept what he's done.

    The Jedi Order was destroyed by one of their own being greedy and selfish. Unwilling to fulfill his destiny without making a sacrifice. The Jedi Order didn't end in failure, it was betrayed by one of their own.
  8. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    That would be the issue, OTHER people would care. How do they know the force is telling hte Jedi something? Why would they care what the Force is telling them?

    People in the real world say that God is speaking to them, do we give them the moral high ground because of that?

    Andr emember, we are talking about a galaxy that hasn't had Jedi in for 50 some odd years at this point (assuming Luke hasn't trained 100,000 Jedi in 30 years). We have people who have grown up never seeing Jedi, never dealing with them etc... Would you be happy and ok with an alien showing up and telling you whats right, whats wrong because "the force" told him it was ok? I don't think many would, at least not if they disagreed with you.
  9. mattman8907 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2012
    star 4
    i was thinking if luke was killed in the ST what are the odds of the njo fracturing and them having their own little war? could those that leave beconsider the new sith?
  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Why would the Jedi Order fracture? The Jedi know that Luke won't live forever and depending on how many Jedi there are, if it's like the EU, there's probably a Council in place.
  11. DarkGingerJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2012
    star 2

    But that's what we just had. The PT was that. The Clone War was that. Right? Jedi (Republic) vs Jedi (Seperatists). I mean, sure it was more than that, with the Sith pulling the strings, but I think we just witnessed the Jedi Order fracturing, one of them becoming a Sith and fighting themselves and staging a massive war. Would you really want another trilogy of that? I hope we get something new.

    Totally agree. This is one of the reasons why I don't see a large-and-in-charge, super populated Jedi Order just yet. The last movie there was one Jedi. If this new movie suddenly has 100s of Jedi running around, ordering people around…that's going to feel like they skipped over a huge chunk in the story. I want to see this new Order come about. I want to see what events brought people together, jedi or whatever, to become Jedis again.

    Right now, even with the Alliance being ok with Force Users (I'd only say this due to their "May the Force be with you" chanting, the Galaxy at large seems to either have forgotten them, wave them off, or despise them. And in the publics eye, it wasn't even Luke who saved the day, it was just regular humans. Lando and the Rebels blew up the Death Star. Luke, the supposed Jedi, was captured. Last seen chatting with Darth Vader, the last guy in the Galaxy to actually had been a Jedi, and not all that well liked.

    I'm guessing the Galaxy would be entirely wary of Force Users at this point. Luke…or his New Jedi Order are gonna have to earn that trust back. I think the Force is going to make a bigger comeback as well. I think we could almost see a spiritual regrowth in the galaxy, were tons of beings are becoming Force sensitive. But it's a process.[/quote]
    Last edited by DarkGingerJedi, Apr 8, 2014
  12. newdawn12 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2013
    star 4
    How does Luke find his new Jedi?
  13. plaidphoenix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2013
    star 4
    Eh, he'll probably find most of them on Craigslist.
  14. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    At the Tosche Station obviously.
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Dooku was identified as a Sith after the Battle of Geonosis. The Order didn't fracture in the films. One Jedi turned well before the war and joined the Sith out of revenge.


    The galaxy has long since realized that they were tricked by a Sith Lord, thanks to the destruction of Alderaan, the actions Palpatine took over twenty years and the growing support the Alliance was receiving. Ergo, they're willing to trust the Jedi again.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Apr 8, 2014
  16. Palpatine's P.A. Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2014
    star 1
    Exactly. I said something similar and think this would be interesting. Not just one Jedi going bad which has been done to death, but the entire order splitting in two with Luke loyalists and those loyal to...Han and Leia's son or daughter? who has different ideas/doesn't think Luke has a right to be head of the order because of what he did a long time ago. The other group aren't evil as such (to begin with at least), just have a different philosophy.

    Luke doesn't necessarily have to die to kick this off, but his death could be the result of it
    Last edited by Palpatine's P.A., Apr 8, 2014
  17. DarkGingerJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2012
    star 2
    It's still Jedi vs Fallen Jedi. The war is led and controlled on both sides by a bunch of Force Users; one of whom departed from the larger organization and now fights against them.

    The point, as Mattman was pondering was would it be interesting to see Luke's New Jedi Order fracture due to a Jedi (Or a few of them) falling and becoming a Sith. My point was…Isn't that what we just had? With Dooku. And with Anakin. In all of the 1000 generation of Jedi Knights, there were…what…20 who had fallen. That seems like a rare thing. You're telling the me that as soon as Luke sets up a New Order and as soon as he starts training new Jedi, a single Jedi, a few of them, or half of them all fall and start learning the ways of the Sith and a war breaks out. Hmm. Seems a bit repetitive to me.

    The galaxy has long since realized that they were tricked by a Sith Lord, thanks to the destruction of Alderaan, the actions Palpatine took over twenty years and the growing support the Alliance was receiving. Ergo, they're willing to trust the Jedi again.[/quote]

    Really…are they willing to trust the Jedi again?

    You're right that the Galaxy probably does not really care for the Emperor AT ALL. But do we really know that Joe. Q. Galactic-citizen knows about the Sith? Or knows that Palpatine was secretly a Sith who manipulated all parties into doing exactly what he wanted - to discredit the Jedi, and get them to act against their principles, to get rid of the senate, which was already pretty corrupt, and then to take over?

    Remember, the word Sith was never mentioned in the OT, right? Even Vader, Sith Number Two, is referred to as Jedi. Even by Tarkin, who's probably the head honcho military officer for the Empire, doesn't know or really care to distinguish wether he's a Jedi or Sith. He calls him a Jedi. The Last of His Kind. The other officers disdain him. Make fun of him - to his face. This is 20 some odd years after the Jedi purge, some of these men would have surely worked along side the Jedi during the Clone Wars, or at least would have known them in action. And now they're essentially laughing at them and their legacy.

    Owen Lars doesn't seem to hold Obi-wan in much esteem either. And Han, who's been all over Galaxy doesn't believe in such nonsense. And even by Ep 6, as he's known Luke for 2 movies, and as Luke has just FREED HIM, and has seen him in action, laughs at the very notion that Luke has become a Jedi Knight.

    It doesn't really seem like the Galaxy at large likes…or trusts the Jedi. They're either ridiculed or disdained.

    It could it stand to reason that they lump all Force Users together. Imagine you're just a regular guy, you know nothing about the Force. It's a complete mystery. All of sudden Republic Jedi are fighting the Sepratists, who are led by a mysterios ex-Jedi and the entire thing crumbles and at the end Palpatine declares himself Emperor. His right hand man is Darth Vader, the last of the Jedi, is someone not to be messed with ever. Years later the Rebels manage to bring down the Empire and immediately after some little punk shows up, who they've never heard of and wants to establish a new Jedi Order. You'd probably think….NOOOOOO. Sweet Jesus. Stop. No more force users, please. I never seen it. It's hokey. I can't stand this mess. Just stop! Oh? What' that you tell me, the Emperor was really a Sith. Sith? That's…what…a name for evil Jedi? Please….NOOOO!

    I probably wouldn't trust any of it. I'd be very wary of it all.

    But maybe slowly, bit by bit, in small steps people start believing in it again. Like any new religion. You have true believers and it spreads. But it's also usually not trusted at first. It's usually prosecuted at first. Maybe Luke is out there, doing little deeds. Finding new Force sensitives who follow him. Whom he teaches. And they set out earning that trust again.
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  18. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 6
    It'll probably be somewhat similar to the EU–old Imperial records of "potential Force sensitive" and combine it with some kind of midi-chlorian detector or something. Or, they could go a simple route and just say he used the Force to guide him to them. Or maybe it just won't be explained; there'll be Jedi around, that'll be the status quo, and it won't be a big deal because we all expected it and won't need it explained.
  19. BigAl6ft6 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 5
    So since Luke really only had two teachers will he liberally employ the "targeting remote" and "ridding on your student's back" methods for the Padawans?
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  20. dolphin Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 1999
    star 4
    I just saw Attack the Block and could definitely see Boyega as a Jedi Padawan.

    [IMG]
  21. Deckiller Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2014
    The best way for him to reconstitute the Jedi Order will be to magically read the Legacy-era books and learn from his mistakes. The New Jedi Order in the EU gives us wonderful and real characters, but in terms of a Jedi Order they are absolutely awful. One can understand why citizens wanted them to be put on a leash in Fate of the Jedi.

    First of all, there's a reason Jedi shouldn't be getting their rocks off. Attachment is a serious issue for Jedi.

    With that said, the best way for the creative team to reconstitute the New Jedi Order is to keep it a lot like how it is in the EU. The Jedi are real and gritty, and make for far better storylines and characters than the prequel-era monks. These are characters we can relate to, feel for, and sympathize with when they lose their way. Luke Skywalker was the first in a new series of Jedi; he was well out of adolescence when he became a Jedi, and he needed to rebuild the order fast. Many of his early students were thus older and any chance of them having no attachments was just not feasible. Plus, look at his influence: he was tempered by war and people like Han Solo and Lando Calrissian. Luke Skywalker is full of compassion and attachment. The Jedi weren't gonna be celibate, stoic, and relatively pacifist as long as he was around.

    The New Jedi Order is flawed because Luke is a flawed Jedi teacher. He only had a few months with Yoda (at most - and this is debatable, depending on whether he went back to train with Yoda after ESB, and whether the Falcon really did take many months to reach Bespin as it should have) and a couple days with Obi-Wan. He already had a personality. As I said, he was forged by war. The Order therefore has to get through some growing pains before they come to the same conclusions as the Old Jedi Order in terms of how to run things.
    Last edited by Deckiller, Apr 9, 2014
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  22. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I can't recall anything in RoTJ implying that Luke's already been to see Yoda between TESB and ROTJ. Luke's "I've come back to complete my training" does seem like a hint that this is the first time he's seen Yoda since TESB - especially since the first thing he does is ask if Vader was telling the truth.
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  23. Gallandro Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 4
    I'm thinking more along the lines of ronin... masterless samurai. Not in the sense of no Jedi masters, but an order that is beholden to itself, not outside influences like a government. Back in 77 when Obi-Wan said the Jedi were "guardians of justice" I always envisioned them as kind of like the Texas Rangers... Maintaining the rule of law, dispense justice and protecting the little guy from criminals throughout the galaxy.

    Yancy
    Last edited by Gallandro, Apr 9, 2014
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  24. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    I need to watch Attack the Block still.
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    Midichlorian count test. The same way it was done in his father's time.

    Yes, but it is a distinction between the two orders.

    Twenty Jedi fell to the dark side during the thousand years since the last conflict with the Sith. There were more before them, but the Jedi only made note of the Lost Twenty. As to the rest, that's how it's been. Just about every EU era Jedi vs Sith conflict started out pretty much the same way.

    Tarkin knows that Vader was Anakin Skywalker. That's why he said that he is all that is left of the Jedi Order. Their knowledge, their training methods, their history is all embodied in the greatest traitor that the Jedi Order ever knew.

    Owen hates Obi-wan because of what happened to his stepmother and stepbrother. He knows that Anakin was taken from his mother and she was left as a slave. She later died and her son killed the Tuskens that had taken her. And now, he knows what happened to Anakin at the end of the war and here he is, watching his step nephew and always looking over his shoulder for Stormtroopers. Han didn't believe because he didn't know any Jedi until he meets Obi-wan and Luke and he only starts to believe in Luke after he's rescued. He doesn't laugh at Luke, whom he's had to rescue twice from the death's cold embrace, once Jabba's sail barge was destroyed. Hence saying that Luke did well and that he owes him one. He also never mocks Luke during the rest of ROTJ and he and Leia have children who become Jedi.

    After each previous war against the Sith, the Jedi were trusted by the Republic. Even knowing that a number of Jedi became Sith, the Jedi Order was still trusted. It'll be the same way after ROTJ in the next film.

    Luke had additional training beyond that. He spent seven years seeking out all known Jedi artifacts and teaching devices that had survived the Purge. He received training from other Force users in the years afterwards. As to his Jedi, there was no difference between his Jedi and the Jedi from four thousand years earlier. In Luke's time, he only lost a few to the dark side. He also gained a few back. The only major difference was in allowing the Jedi to have families. The fact that the Order was still around years after his death, is testament to the fact that he did right.

    He didn't. Lucas and Kasdan did initially talk about Luke going back in order to complete his training. But this was in 1981. By the time filming had commenced, it was decided that Luke trained on his own to get to where he's at, when he goes to rescue Han.