ST Luke Skywalker's New (or Old) Jedi Order?

The EU went with roughly 25 years per generation- so, the Republic was founded some 25,000 years before.

Later, in the movies we had Palpatine saying "I will not let this Republic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two" as we'll as people saying "there hasn't been a full scale war since the formation of the Republic".

This was cleared up by having the Republic collapse and be reformed, 1000 years before. Roughly the same amount of time as the Sith had been believed extinct.

 

Great post. Yes, the Jedi code is severely underrated. And that also means the rules against attachment are also underrated (which I believe you agree with). I can see them loosening the rules for attachment, but allowing marriage and Jedi families seems like a big mistake. Then again, big mistakes are realistic in society and history. We often overcorrect problems when all we really need to do is make slight adjustments.

I'm still waiting for someone to take us/me to task for our anti-marriage views.

 

Given that Leia & Han are pairing up in RoTJ, and that Luke plans to teach Leia ("You have that power too. In time, you'll learn to use it as I have") I can't see the nonattachment rule being resurrected by him.

 

Times and society change very drastically in our real world. What some consider to be "norms" now have been taboo for decades and centuries. Same holds true for the Jedi. Whether or not these changes will cause strife and conflict will be an issue. With Palaptine's return in some spiritual form, he'll probably try to take advantage of the shaky new rules in the fragile Jedi order.

 

I would agree with you IF both of those assumptions turn out to be true, but those are far from a given. Leia and Han may NOT still be together, and Leia may learn to use powers to some degree, but not become a full-fledged Jedi; I would tend to think of her in more of a statesmanlike role.

 

We know at least that Leia loves Han (she says so several times) and those are pretty logical extrapolations for what they say in the movie.

 

This. Why can't people believe in the classic fantasies that Star Wars was written in the vein of? In them, True Love always ends in marriage, especially if the man and woman kiss at the end of the movie. If someone is told they have powers, they will train in them (although I wouldn't mind Leia postponing her training to create some stiff-necked conversations between her and Luke about her powers in VII).

 

Yes, but you could come up with perfectly logical explanations for why it DOESN'T work out that way.

True she loves Han, but do people that love each other always end up together forever? This is a long time later, and anything could have happened. There could be a scenario where they are apart and have gone their separate ways, Han becomes a scoundrel smuggler again, with Leia becoming a respected leader. Then through circumstances, they are reunited, profess their undying love, etc. It is all assumption and speculation.

As far as Leia becoming a Jedi, all Luke said was that in time she would learn to use powers in time; you could take that as an implication that he would teach her to become a full-fledged Jedi, but that isn't necessarily the case. That would be assuming that Luke was assuming (repetitive grammar, but yes) that she would even WANT to be a Jedi. A force sensitive person would have at least some subtle use of their power in some way in their life regardless, and she isn't your run-of-the-mill force sensitive, she is a Skywalker. Also, before Luke said the quote you give, he said regarding going to meet Vader on Endor, "If I don't come back, you are the only hope for the alliance." So he clearly wasn't saying that his instruction was the only way she would have force powers.

I believe in them, do I believe the ST is bound to be a carbon copy of every aspect? No.

BTW, true love in marriage with a kiss at the end of the movie? How about AOTC? That one didn't last forever, did it? I see what you are saying, and believe the movie will be done in the vein of those old Sci-Fi's to some degree, but we can't make reliable assumptions about every detail.

 

Well, no, but there was a marriage.

 

True, but it was short-lived, and involved force-choking domestic violence . Han and Leia had an antagonistic relationship, I could see a breakup easily fitting into the storyline.

 

A separation, maybe. Nothing permanent, though, I think they love each other too much.

 

Probably, but I don't think that would be a barrier if they wanted to write in the no attachment rule in the story, even if Leia were to become a Jedi. They could be separated for a long period of time (maybe even all of Episode 7, or for several years before the time period of Episode 7), Leia becomes a Jedi, then in the next movie, they are reunited through dramatically changed circumstances.

 

Every single main character relationship, with the exception of Vader and Palpatine, was over by the scrawling credits of III. Everyone truly went their separate ways, or they were dead. I'm hoping for a fresh take on EVERYTHING in this ST. I am in the camp that hopes Leia is neither a fully trained Jedi, nor blissfully married to Han. It's TOO predictable. That 's why I'm always rattling the cages with different ideas. I don't want to spend the next five years delicately navigating out of the corner the saga has been painted into by canonical innuendo and expanded universe material. (and I love EU).

 

I would like a fresh take on the relationships also (as well as new characters and storylines being the main focus, I'm in the camp of avoiding repetition also). I don't want Leia to be a Jedi, and certainly don't want a blissful marriage between Han and Leia, as that wouldn't even fit their characters. I do think that they will have to address the relationships that were built in the OT, since, for example, it wouldn't make any sense to just bring Han and Leia in as if they never were anything but co-workers. Episode 3 had a very grim ending, as it was meant to start the sort of dark ages of the galaxy, but the end of the OT was different (obviously), there were a some very connected relationships that will continue to some degree in the ST. But yes, I don't want a two hour rehash either, don't want any characters featured that are alive that were thought to be dead (Palp, Mace, Maul, etc.), don't want a story of a Jedi turning to the dark side (that's been done already), and don't want a movie all about something from the OT (like the whole thing being mainly the story of Luke Skywalker).

 

Why do you need lots of Jedi right away? Hell, after what happened in the PT andt he whole dark times thing, there are probably a lot of people who don't want the Jedi Order back and would have big problems/issues with Luke very quickly rebuilding it. And remember Luke was trained one-on-one. He would probably see it as the way to go, know how to teach that way, plus being told by the force ghosts who taught him to dot hat way......

And the EU is meaningless, so the movies are the only meaningful way we've seen the Jedi presented.

Some things change, some don't. Religious groups are some of the slowest to change, if they ever do. And we don't have a real analog for the Jedi in real life, who have rules in place to protect the members and other people from the Jedi. The Jedi don't hate families or want the property and money of dead Jedi to be left to the order or anything like that. They aren't allowed to marry (for example) to avoid what happened to Anakin. Rules based on safety and in place to protect people and society as a whole generally don't change.

Except the EU doesn't matter/mean anything, so all those "wars" the Republic was in in the comics and novels.....never happened in the movie time-line. No lame retcon needed.

 

Mon Mothma, at least, was around when the Jedi were- so might want them back, having seen what happens without them (Palpatine tightening his grip on the galaxy).

 

And also seen what happens with them (people during evil, destroying the government, allowing people like Palpatine to get a grip in the first place etc...).

 

We know there was a war between the Sith and the Jedi, at least, since Palpatine's saying "Once more the Sith shall rule the galaxy" in RoTS- implication- they ruled it once and the Jedi put a stop to that.

The TPM novelization's bit about the war between the Jedi & the Sith, came straight from Lucas, according to the author.

The Sith had come into being almost two thousand years ago. They were a cult given over to the dark side of the Force, embracing fully the concept that power denied was power wasted. A rogue Jedi Knight had founded the Sith, a singular dissident in an order of harmonious followers, a rebel who understood from the beginning that the real power of the Force lay not in the light, but in the dark. Failing to gain approval for his beliefs from the Council, he had broken with the order, departing with his knowledge and his skills, swearing in secret that he could bring down those who had dismissed him.

He was alone at first, but others from the Jedi order who believed as he did and who had followed him in his study of the dark side soon came over. Others were recruited, and soon the ranks of the Sith swelled to more than fifty in number. Disdaining the concepts of cooperation and consensus, relying on the belief that acquisition of power in any form lends control, the Sith began to build their cult in opposition to the Jedi. Theirs was not an order created to serve; theirs was an order created to dominate.

Their war with the Jedi was vengeful and furious and ultimately doomed. The rogue Jedi who had founded the Sith order was its nominal leader, but his ambition excluded any sharing of power. His disciples began to conspire against him and each other almost from the beginning, so that the war they instigated was as much with each other as with the Jedi.

In the end, the Sith destroyed themselves. They destroyed their leader first, then each other. What few survived the initial bloodbath were quickly dispatched by watchful Jedi. In a matter of only weeks, all of them died.

All but one.

Darth Maul shifted impatiently. The younger Sith had not yet learned his Master's patience; that would come with time and training. It was patience that had saved the Sith order in the end. It was patience that would give them their victory now over the Jedi.

The Sith who had survived when all of his fellows had died had understood that. He had adopted patience as a virtue when the others had forsaken it. He had adopted cunning, stealth, and subterfuge as the foundation of his way- old Jedi virtues the others had disdained. He stood aside while the Sith tore at each other like kriks and were destroyed. When the carnage was complete, he went into hiding, biding his time, waiting for his chance.

When it was believed all of the Sith were destroyed, he emerged from his concealment. At first he worked alone, but he was growing old and he was the last of his kind. Eventually, he went out in search of an apprentice. Finding one, he trained him to be a Master in his turn, then to find his own apprentice, and so to carry on their work. But there would only be two at any one time. There would be no repetition of the mistakes of the old order, no struggle between Siths warring for power within the cult. Their common enemy was the Jedi, not each other. It was for their war with the Jedi they must save themselves.

The Sith who reinvented the order called himself Darth Bane.

A thousand years had passed since the Sith were believed destroyed, and the time they had waited for had come at last.​

 

Why do - I - need "lots of Jedi"? Let me ask you a question, yes? When did I ever say a single word about how many Jedi I'd like to see? Let me save you the trouble, I never did.

What I did say was that the events of ROTS were a game-changer, where the Jedi Order of old was eradicated, very nearly down to the last Jedi, and that the same old rules may no longer apply (which is something you, yourself, have just acknowledged). As I also said, we'll just have to wait and see. If you still cannot see the point I was trying to make, I'm sorry, I cannot think of any way to be any more clear about it than this.

As far as the EU is concerned, I don't understand your need to continue arguing the point with anyone who touches upon it. For many people, the EU is just as important as any of the films, and though for me, personally, the films may always take precedence, no one can argue that for a lot of fans, the EU has a long history of making essential contributions to the timeline, providing details not covered in the features and enriching the franchise. Just because you may not care to reference it, by no means is the EU "meaningless" to the discussion of how the Jedi Order has been depicted throughout its history.

 

Though it didn't lead to a full scale, galaxy wide conflict like the Clone Wars.

 

The movie doesn't actually tell us that- all it says is that the Republic has stood for a thousand years- and there hasn't been a full scale war in that time.

The war between the Jedi and the Sith was before that, and was:

"vengeful and furious and ultimately doomed."

 

I didn't mean you as in you personal.

I don't think it make would make any sense for Luke, an inexperienced Jedi when you really get down to it, to ignore his training (all one-on-one) and infomation he finds or is told by his old masters (which would be one-on-one training) just to get lots and Jedi quickly, espically considering there would most likely be lots of people int he galaxy who wouldn't be thrilled with the idea of the Jedi returning. The situation would Anakin, if anything, would just enforce the old rules of lots of one-on-one training with no deep attachments to prevent that from happening again.

Keeping the "Jedi Order" very small, Luke maybe a fully trained Knight and a new student, also makes jumping in very easy for the audience. No time needed to explain or set up the rules of a new Order of Jedi, its Luke and these 2-3 people right now.

 

Except then the Republic would not have been involved (though I certainly wouldn't take that "its stood for 1,000 years" line literally).

Though it is funny, if you are going to take lines literally, then the line "there hasn't been a full scale war since the formation of the Republic" would mean the "Republic disolved and reformed" retcon didn't happen, since that would mean there hasn't been a full scale are since the re-Formation of the Republic, which isn't what he said happened. \

And vengeful and furious and ultimately doomed doesn't = galaxy spanning, "full scale" war like the Clone wars. You can have a one-on-one fight that is vengeful and furious.

 

The Jedi, like Ben, think of the Republic as something that has been around for 1000 generations "For a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic"

The politicians, however, think of it as something that's only been around for 1000 years.

Hence the, fairly logical, EU clarification.

 

I think you've touched on a point here which is real grounds for some good SW conflict, and I hope that this dynamic comes into play during the ST.

Not only would the greater Jedi Order be circumspect, from the public's point-of-view, but if word ever got out concerning the relationships between Anakin Skywalker, Darth Vader, Luke, Leia and their respective children... boy, oh boy!

It could be pretty great.