ST Luke Skywalker's New (or Old) Jedi Order?

I understand now

 

I disagree . isn't Jaden Korr a grey Jedi because he balances dark and light? He obeys luke

 

Yoda and Obi-Wan are dispassionate about Anakin - and Obi-Wan does try to reason with him - but bear in mind the slaughter he unleashed - and murdered children.

What is the execution scene in TCW?

Mace went after Palpatine to arrest him, but when he saw how powerful he was (and knowing the influence he had over the Senate, courts, etc.) he was perfectly justified in wanting to execute Palpatine. It wasn't a decision taken lightly because he was going to have a great deal of difficulty proving it.

Yes, Anakin hesitated in killing Dooku but he was no saint - he murdered a whole tribe of Sandpeople.

 

Palpatine's actions were his own and not the fault of the Jedi. There's no reason to hold his actions against them.

And he would tell the people what went down. That Vader was his father and ultimately died from injuries inflicted from killing Palpatine. There's no reason to withhold information.


[quote="Hogsquattle]I don’t know about rarity, but it wasn’t common - in a galaxy of billions, was only a few thousand Jedi.
Add, to that how will Luke find them - even Qui-Gon didn’t sense Anakin’s potential straight away, no one suspected Palpatine and whatever happened to Leia in that interrogation she didn’t reveal any latent abilities that Vader could detect.
It is going to be very difficult for Luke to find others in such a big galaxy.[/quote]

1. The Jedi were small because of how they trained new Jedi as I pointed out.

2. Luke would do Midichlorian tests.

3. He has access to three Jedi Masters who would point him in the direction of the Holocron with the identities of all the known potentials. He would follow their bloodlines.

Except seeing that he was evil and given how there was a Jedi fighting on their side, would be big enough clues to put two and two together.

True, but it was only an issue going into the Clone Wars. When things were going downhill and the Jedi were becoming overwhelmed. In times of peace, the Jedi were quiet capable of handling things.

The point was that the Republic was quiet peaceful for a thousand years. Hence no standing military, just local security for each system with the Jedi handling affairs on a different scale. The Jedi were still given respect and feared by those who knew that they were up **** creek when they showed up. Note that as soon as TC-14 tells Nute, Dofine and Rune that the ambassadors were Jedi, they all three soiled themselves and feared that their plan had failed before it even began.

DOFINE: "I knew it! They were sent to force a settlement."

NUTE: "Distract them until I can contact Lord Sidious."

DOFINE: "Are you brain dead? I'm not going in there with two Jedi! Send the droid."

DOFINE: "...This scheme of yours has failed, Lord Sidious. The blockade is finished! We dare not go against these Jedi."

As to being legendary, the Federation never met them before.

RUNE: "Have you ever encountered a Jedi Knight before, sir?"

NUTE: "Well, not exactly, but I don't...(panicked) Seal off the bridge."

You're whoever you are until otherwise. Maul was a child when he was raised as a Sith. Luke was normal until he chose the path of the Jedi. And he wanted to be that because of his father. Likewise, someone of the dark side can manipulate a person into turning despite good intentions.

They were sensing the Sith trying to find them, not Anakin.

They could fight in a war, they just couldn't do it on their own. The Jedi were on the frontlines during the last war with the Sith.

Except Luke was wrong to use his anger against Vader. That was the point. He was screwing up every time he acted aggressively. That's why he looks at his hand and then his father and then remembers his failure in the cave. He used his emotions and they were going to lead him down a dark path. As to the Council, they existed long before the Force went out of balance. They existed to govern the Jedi because even Jedi need leadership.

1. That was in response to the video games letting Jedi use lighting, which is a dark side ability and an unnatural use of the Force. The fact that the Jedi don't use it in the PT and TCW is proof
of that.

2. That went against the core philosophy of the Force as Lucas defined it.

 

Yes, but bare in mind he was leading the Republic against the “evil” Separatists.

The Jedi staged attempted a coup.

He ended up deformed and next thing there was an Empire, stormtroopers everywhere and freedom gone.

Many people may blame the Jedi for him instituting the new laws. Deforming him and making him power mad.

Only Palpatine and Vader knew what went down that night.

Bunch of Force users took over, galaxy went downhill.

“Jedi. Sith. What’s the difference? They are all power mad.”

And he would tell the people what went down. That Vader was his father and ultimately died from injuries inflicted from killing Palpatine. There's no reason to withhold information. [/quote]

Yes, maybe he does but it is only his say-so.

Why should people believe him?

“Vader brought terror to the galaxy? Murdered without conscience. You telling us that guy wasn’t so bad.“

They could easily think Skywalker is Vader’s son and was there to join forces with the Emperor and dear old dad, but the Death Star exploded and he escaped.

There are people who will believe “the sins of the father...”

[quote="Hogsquattle]I don’t know about rarity, but it wasn’t common - in a galaxy of billions, was only a few thousand Jedi.
Add, to that how will Luke find them - even Qui-Gon didn’t sense Anakin’s potential straight away, no one suspected Palpatine and whatever happened to Leia in that interrogation she didn’t reveal any latent abilities that Vader could detect.
It is going to be very difficult for Luke to find others in such a big galaxy.[/quote]

1. The Jedi were small because of how they trained new Jedi as I pointed out.

2. Luke would do Midichlorian tests.

3. He has access to three Jedi Masters who would point him in the direction of the Holocron with the identities of all the known potentials. He would follow their bloodlines. [/quote]

It seems to me that nearly every knight has a Padawan, then there are the teenagers and younglings.

We don’t know how many Masters, Knights, Padawans, younglings there are or the average rate at which they recruit - plus we are not told in any real detail about How younglings are brought into Order (is it with the parents constent, is it law the Jedi get who they want, etc.) but we do know the Bardottans consider the Jedi to be “kidnappers”.

In order to test for Midichlorians, Luke would have to get consent for a blood test - who would let the son of Darth Vader near themselves or their child? And logistically, how could he do it? He’d need the assistance of each worlds medical board or system. We don’t yet know the politecal landscape of the of the Post-Empire galaxy.

Except seeing that he was evil and given how there was a Jedi fighting on their side, would be big enough clues to put two and two together.[/quote]

Even if the majority of the Rebels supported Luke, that doesn’t mean the galaxy at large (not every anti-Empire being in the galaxy fights back or supports the Rebels) will just go along with it.

I think you are looking at it from the perspective of a movie viewer - but look at it from the point of view of the average Rodian in Mos Espa and think of similar real life situations, e.g.. a person from a family of known thugs and criminals does well in school, goes to college, comes out top of his class and might experience great difficulty convincing people he is not a thug also.

Luke will experience this too in the aftermath of Endor.

True, but it was only an issue going into the Clone Wars. When things were going downhill and the Jedi were becoming overwhelmed. In times of peace, the Jedi were quiet capable of handling things.

The point was that the Republic was quiet peaceful for a thousand years. Hence no standing military, just local security for each system with the Jedi handling affairs on a different scale. The Jedi were still given respect and feared by those who knew that they were up **** creek when they showed up. Note that as soon as TC-14 tells Nute, Dofine and Rune that the ambassadors were Jedi, they all three soiled themselves and feared that their plan had failed before it even began.[/quote]

Yes, the there was a lot of Jedi and in peace time they were on top of things.

War broke out and it resulted in hundreds, if not thousands of them dead.

The galaxy isn’t going to just go back peace and serenity the day after the Battle of Endor. The Moffs will fight back, worlds will be left leaderless. Those with a sicked agenda will try to take over this world or that, in places where the heroic rebels are put in power they may not be able to handle it - fighting stormtrooprs is a lot different to setting up an education system and rebuilding infrastructure.

You're whoever you are until otherwise. Maul was a child when he was raised as a Sith. Luke was normal until he chose the path of the Jedi. And he wanted to be that because of his father. Likewise, someone of the dark side can manipulate a person into turning despite good intentions.[/quote]

True

They were sensing the Sith trying to find them, not Anakin.[/quote]

Is that from the novelisation?

They could fight in a war, they just couldn't do it on their own. The Jedi were on the frontlines during the last war with the Sith.[/quote]

The Jedi weren’t soldiers and military strategists when the war started, They got good at it as they went along, but also Palpatine was leading both sides and manipulating most Separatist retreats.

Except Luke was wrong to use his anger against Vader. That was the point. He was screwing up every time he acted aggressively. That's why he looks at his hand and then his father and then remembers his failure in the cave. He used his emotions and they were going to lead him down a dark path. As to the Council, they existed long before the Force went out of balance. They existed to govern the Jedi because even Jedi need leadership.[/quote]

And what do you do when your leaders are wrong? Or the rules mean you ca’t do what you think is right in your heart?

and it wasn’t Luke’s emotions that were leading to the Dark Side, it was just some of them - his fear and anger. His other emotions brought him back - compassion,calm.

1. That was in response to the video games letting Jedi use lighting, which is a dark side ability and an unnatural use of the Force. The fact that the Jedi don't use it in the PT and TCW is proof
of that.

2. That went against the core philosophy of the Force as Lucas defined it.[/quote]

Agreed.

 

Hence, send the plans for Midichlorian detectors to every government, and delegate the job to them.

Sure - but that doesn't mean it isn't possible for a character to maintain that philosophy for a while, and not be disproven in-universe.

 

This conversation reminds me of a number of Lucas quotes regarding the sequel trilogy and Luke's lessons: I'll dig them up, but something about Luke having to disregard the advice of his mentors to win, and also about the sequel trilogy dealing in good and evil not being that much different, and what the real difference really is.

 

Yes, but only in an ideal galaxy. As I said we don't yet know the political landscape in the aftermath of the battle of Endor.

It isn't a given that Luke will be held up as the great hero the audience know him to be. There will be fear and mistrust, especially if the galaxy discovers the truth about him.

Sure - but that doesn't mean it isn't possible for a character to maintain that philosophy for a while, and not be disproven in-universe.[/quote]

Star Wars isn't about the grey areas, though, is it? It is about good vs. evil, the consequence of choices and that no-one is irredeemible (except old Palps )

In Star Wars if you do bad things you are a bad guy.

I recall Lucas saying he felt it would be about choices and consequence, and something like "what is justice?" or such.

Don't remember the good and not being much different bit.

 

okay when I use tapatalk it does not say tapatalk, but when someone else uses it it mentions it. any ideas why? The only reason I care is it validates why I accidently double posted. Not as easy to fix on tapatalk.

 

The difference is that Palpatine was ultimately proven to be the true threat, based on the Death Star and what the Alliance said about him. Then you have a Jedi fighting to save the galaxy from the Sith.

A small number, but not everyone. The Jedi have long held a history of serving the Republic, not dominating it. And it would come down to faith which Luke has and will be rewarded for earning their trust again.

We are told. In "The Clone Wars", the Jedi had data on who was to be trained, but they were not forcing the parents to turn their children over. The parents were given a choice and those who said yes, gave up their children. Those who said no, kept them. That's why Qui-gon doesn't take Anakin by force, but gives him the option to say yes or no.

Why wouldn't they trust the hero of the Alliance and the last of the Jedi? As to testing, well, given that Qui-gon told Obi-wan to analyze the blood and go from there, it isn't that complicated. Luke would either rely on the holocron or go out looking for those who fit a profile and then test them.

But enough of the new Senate will support him.

You know this how?

And Luke will help out as best as he can. But he won't be a soldier for hire. He will operate like he did at Endor. Helping out, but not leading things.

No, but given that Obi-wan sensed the Sith earlier and that Qui-gon doesn't sense Anakin when they meet.

The Jedi were capable military leaders because we saw that on Geonosis and as Qui-gon said, "I cannot fight a war for you." Meaning the Jedi could be leaders, but they were not trained to be soldiers. They were trained as peace keepers.

Let's look at Qui-gon. He was considered a maverick, but yet, he still managed to be considered a respectable Jedi and a Master at that. Sometimes he was allowed to do what he did and for good or bad, the Council didn't force him to do nothing. Sometimes it worked out and sometimes it didn't. It would be the same with Luke's Jedi.

Never said otherwise.

"It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it’s only in the last act—when he throws his sword down and says, “I’m not going to fight this”—that he makes a more conscious, rational decision."

--George Lucas, Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000

Luke is ultimately saved though, but not letting his emotions control him.

We know this how?

 

Yes, but like I said, you are looking at it from what we know as the audience.
Look at it from the point of view of an ordinary citizen of the galaxy.

Compare it to events that happen in real life. How many Americans of Japanese background or Japanese imigrants were unfairly treated after the attack on Pearl Harbour, how many people think being Muslim means terrorist.

It isn’t right but some people do think this way.

Fear spreads easy. Trust does not.

The galaxy has been held in the grip of terror for decades by Force users.

They are dead, there will be those who want revenge - and here is the son of one of them.

Now, the whole galaxy won’t turn on Luke, but many will and suppose those who don’t trust him are in power on their world?

Luke won’t be welcome.

quote="darth-sinister, post: 51690700, member: 426497"]
We are told. In "The Clone Wars", the Jedi had data on who was to be trained, but they were not forcing the parents to turn their children over. The parents were given a choice and those who said yes, gave up their children. Those who said no, kept them. That's why Qui-gon doesn't take Anakin by force, but gives him the option to say yes or no.[/quote]

Well, that sorts that issue.

quote="darth-sinister, post: 51690700, member: 426497"]
Why wouldn't they trust the hero of the Alliance and the last of the Jedi? As to testing, well, given that Qui-gon told Obi-wan to analyze the blood and go from there, it isn't that complicated. Luke would either rely on the holocron or go out looking for those who fit a profile and then test them.[/quote]

It keeps coming back o this and I don’t know how else to explain predjudice - the galaxy was terroised by Force users, many will not differentiate between Jedi and Sith and Luke is the son of Darth Vader - set aside what you see him do in RotJ - no-one else in the galaxy saw it. You say why should they trust him? I say, why should they?

Prejudice is just prejudice.

There is no guarantee of that there will be a new Senate or Republic - we don’t yet know the what happens after the Empire falls.

Plenty of people won’t want to go back to a one government galaxy.

And even if it did, we don’t know that every Rebel was in the fight for justice and freedom. Some may want revenge on the Empire for various reasons, some Rebels may not agree with life after the civil war, etc.

I don’t, just as you can’t know for certain either, this is the point.

 

The scene I refer to is in the last episode of Clone Wars, "Sacrifice" in a vision.
Anakin - Your orders, Master?
Yoda - Capture them we will.
The time has come to discover the identity of this Sith Master.
Anakin - And if they escape?
Yoda - Escape, not. If it comes to it, execute them we must.

I have no doubt Mace was justified in his mind, but we can probably agree that he played right into Palpatine's hands by trying to execute him. There was certainly another way.

Anakin felt remorse for killing the Sandpeople, but Palpatine, the highest law in the land, told Anakin it was justified. A justified execution. Anakin should have listened to his heart, like Luke did, and abstained from executing Dooku. A passion killing after someone rapes and murders your mom is a writeoff. But an execution of a war enemy after you have him defeated can not be excused by passion.

So, will Luke have retained his lessons from Ep. VI, or will the writers go another way? Time will tell.

 

Of course, can't believe I forgot

He wasn't wrong though.

It wasn't just in his mind - he was right - Sith are evil, he was too powerful - Force wise and politically - he couldn't risk Palpatine getting away.

I'm speaking here in terms of a work of fiction - I don't believe execution should be used in the real world.

Anakin did feel remorse but it wasn't alleviated by any legal argument Palpatine made - he told him it okay because of what they did to Shmi.

And Anakin killed them all not just "someone" - was he justified in killing the children in an act of passion? What had they done?

Killing children cannot be written off - it was just wrong and Anakin knew it. The fact that he could carry on afterwards shows his remorse was strong enough - no matter what Palpatine said.

So, will Luke have retained his lessons from Ep. VI, or will the writers go another way? Time will tell.[/quote]

 

I don't think Anakin's massacre was justified, by writeoff, I mean they killed and tortured his mom. It's not right, but it's pretty understandable in the heat of the moment, and very situational. Not something that defines one's character, such as their policy on executing their enemies.

In Star Wars, child murderers deserve forgiveness. That's canon.

Executing Dooku was also wrong, and that was forgiven as well. I know these ideas aren't popular, but the thesis of the work is that inside every bad person is a good person. Nobody thinks they are evil.

The powerful, philosophical ideas of the PT and OT will probably not be continued, the more that I think about it. I mean, these ideas would never have passed an investors' meeting. In this way, I think there's little reason to wonder what Luke's Jedi Order will look like. I think it will be pretty safe. I doubt he will teach the same kind of compassion that saved the galaxy, or pass on all he has learned.

 

Right and the war ended and people wised up. Not to mention in the OT, Luke isn't in a prison. He's walking about as the last Jedi and hero of the Alliance.

Only by Imperials and Imperial supporters.

People know the difference between the Sith and the Jedi. Established in the PT. The Jedi have never been shown to be terrorists and given that Palpatine's credibility was shot between "Rebels" and "A New Hope", I'd say that the majority of the galaxy will be on Luke's side.

Lucas already said that the Republic would return.

Given the way Lucas wrote the story, it looks more like justice and freedom than personal vengeance.

In part because of a Sith trap.

So then how did he become Commander Skywalker? How did he become Rogue Leader? Why was he given a medal for destroying the Death Star and rescuing Leia? The Alliance supported him and as a Jedi, he will go where he's needed. Just as the Jedi did before.

We don't know what was used. The film never elaborates on it. But what is accounted for is that Qui-gon doesn't sense the Force in Anakin.

And there was the rest of the war, where the Jedi lead the clones and won many battles.

-Geonosis
-Muunilinst
-Christophsis
-Ryloth
-Dac
-Utapau
-Coruscant
-Boz Pity
-Kashyyyk
-Cato Niemoidia.

Not to mention destroying the Malevolence, foiling an assassination attempt on Mandalore, capturing and then destroying the Zillo Beast and gaining help from the Hutts.

That doesn't make sense. That's like saying there's no need for a government, a board of directors and the like. There's always going to be a need for administration of some sort in any form. Otherwise, especially with Jedi, the Sith will return because one Jedi will go too far.

Luke let his fear and anger control him.

That's not the message Lucas had. The message is that for anyone, if you just harbor hate and resentment, then you will never find peace in yourself. Luke doesn't hate his father. He loves him in spite of his crimes. He forgives him for what he did to him and to others and believes that he is worth saving.

 

Yes, with those warriors who know - in the excitement of of victory celebrations.

What about when soldiers return home after years at war to the devasation wright by Vader on their home world?

Or the ordinary citizens of the galaxy?

The end of RotJ was intended as the last in the series, Lucas didn’t when or if he was making more (in fact he incorporated elements from his early plans of the ST in RotJ) - it was hardly going to end with Luke in chains.

Now Abrams and Kasdan can explore the full extent of Vader’s legacy - part of which could be the fear and prejudice Luke and other Jedi face.

Like you asked me above - how do you know this?

Majority - maybe, but not necessarily, even if it is majority that is leaves a great deal who don’t.

And not everyone knows the difference between Sith and Jedi - and more will not care, which is an element of fear and prejudice.

However, he never said it would return in full glory or size.

Plus, he may have changed his mind over the years.

Plus, Abrams and Kasdan story may take a different approach,we don’t yet know how much it adheres or deviates from Lucas’ treatment,

He was telling us the story of a few Rebels - not them all.

I don’t remember the point - I can’t find it above

This before even Luke knew about that Vader was his father.

I regards to him being a potential Jedi - who in the Alliance knows at that point?

Obviously by RotJ, they definatly know and many of his comrades have come to trust in him, but with don’t see really see much interaction with other Rebels. There could be plenty who are suspicious.

Yes we do - Maul clearly states that a connection trace has been established - that is the significance of Sio Bibble’s message being sent at all. - the message goes to the ship but not answering prevents there exact location on the planet being discovered (similar to your email getting spam, opening or clicking a link is what allows the virus in) hence why Maul needs the probes.

 

Or there is no fear and prejudice.

Imperials still loyal to Palpatine's new order won't take to Luke, which is part of the reason for the conflict in this film series. They'll see him as the reason their boss is dead.

One thousand years ago, the Jedi fought the Sith who had enslaved the majority of the Republic. A fact well documented. The Jedi took them out and served the Senate again. In the present, a Sith Lord was leading the Separatists and it comes out that Palpatine is a Sith, people will put two and two together and realize the Jedi were set up.

True, but we know that it's supposed to return.

Actually, he was. Hence all the ones we saw in three films and never once was there a plot point about dissent. In fact, in ROTJ, there was a scene where as soon as Luke walks in, people cheer for the last Jedi.

The point was that the Jedi won many battles in the war.

And they know Luke. Four years he was loyal to the Alliance. They'd be dead without him.

Everyone who saw him wearing a Lightsaber and that he was identified as a Jedi.

Except he was a commander in the military. You don't earn that rank if there's miss trust after three years. Luke interacted with Wedge, Dak and the other Rogue squadron members who all regarded Luke fondly and went out to rescue him and Han. No one says a crossword about Luke when he's in trouble.

Obi-wan says that it was bait to establish a connection trace. But while Maul says that the trace was correct, but he never said it was from the transmission.

Except they had military strategy before then. On Geonosis, the Jedi didn't realize that they were walking into a trap. They thought that they had the advantage. The same way the Alliance that they had the advantage going to Endor.

The point is that the Jedi lead those battles and won. Hell, a squad of clones manage to beat a rogue Jedi Master after a long and hard battle, shows that the Jedi were quiet resourceful.

Right and there's also the Vatican in Rome which governs the Catholic church. And during the era of Arthur, according to legend, he had the infamous round table by which his most trusted knights worked together when it came to where they were deployed and how business was conducted. Note how the Council was circular?

Which is what the Council is there for.

"One of the problems of Sith is that they are always quick to anger. This scene with her it was very important that we set it up to the point where he chokes her as he does with one of the generals in ANH. But at the same time he doesn’t kill her and he just causes her to faint but you get to see that flash of anger which he now doesn’t have much control over. The whole point in a Jedi is that you can completely control your anger and now he’s at a point where he can't control it at all and it's because of his need for his control for power and he gets very upset when he can't have it. And now he’s assuming that she’s with Obi-wan, not necessarily in a love relationship or anything, in the basis that they are both on one side of the path and he’s going down the other."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary

 

darth-sinister

I'll read it tomorrow - already been through a long one tonight.

 

edit

 

That is possible, just as it is possible that there is.

However, that is very much a “happy ever after” scenario and while Star Wars is indeed a fantasy it does use real word elements to tell the story and like all fables there is meant to be a moral, or lesson.

“Happy ever after” would be fine if RotJ was the end of Luke’s story, but now it isn’t and fear, prejudice, hatred and misunderstanding are just as widespread today as they ever have been - how better to give a lesson on than in a Star Wars movie?

There is further evidence that these may be a plot in the ST - the shelfing of Detours and the early ending of TCW.

It puts a very comical spin on the OT, and from the clips on Vader and the Empire in particular. TCW was very popular and the decision was not taken lightly but clearly the re-introduction of the Empire (especially to younger or newer fans) in Rebels was worth the risk of alienating fans.

Clearly both these have a bearing on the ST, pointing to some kind of impact of Vader’s legacy on the characters, most likely Luke.

As I said, it could be not a issue and Luke is a renewed and beloved hero, but I feel there is more drama and potential in that not being the case.

No, I meant how do you know “only” the Imperials (just as you say I don’t know people will fear Luke).

There is a lot more potential for Luke’s character in dealing with the fallout of Vader’s action on the personal level of being feared and hated by those he fought to protect and set free, than by being hated by the bad guys - of course the Imperials will do that.

Also, the Imperial “Remnant” won’t be a primary threat (that is if they feature at all)

Storywise, the idea the the Empire stills exists voids the victory of the heroes in RotJ and (partially) dilutes Anakin’s redemption and sacrifice in destroying Palpatine I say partially because that was mainly about destroying the Sith.

Creatively speaking… well it isn’t… it is just rehashing the old classic villains instead of creating something knew. I doubt Abrams and Disney want that.

That was a thousand years ago. Things change. Attitudes change., e.g. once upon a time sexual oriantation was not an issue, in the time of Oscar Wilde homosexuality was against the law in Britain, now that is considered an outragous situation.

Plus, you are overlooking fear and prejudice.

Also true, but now the story is continuing and other considerations must be made to expand the mythology.

No, he was telling the story of Luke, Han and Leia and of the Rebels in general, but as individuals - that did not matter to the story of the OT - but as I said above the mythology is expanding beyond the happy victory of Endor.

Yes, all the Rebels were fighting for the same cause and outcome, but their motivations and the events that brought them to the Alliance are all different. Idealism is sufficient for the story to advance from ANH to RotJ, where we not get to know, or need to know, the othe other warriors - only that they are there.

However, there is little room for growth and drama in a galaxy where all the soldiers were idealists and returned to their homeworld happy and untouched by the war.

Yes, that point is not in dispute - I’m simply saying that they had to adapt to war and learn strategy as they went on. I’m not saying they weren’t good military leaders in that regard - just that they had to learn.

Yes those who know him, know him. The ones he fought beside would stand up for him if the heard anything against him. However, we don’t know the details of his time with the Alliance and the cells he with. Were Luke Han and Leia always attached to the one cell? Did they move from cell to cell? Was Rieekan’s forces formerly Dodonna’s cell?

Those who only knew of him and didn’t fight with him could be suspicious of the Force user’s motives.

Plus, there is the wider popluation of civilians and criminals and others whose life is easier without Jedi.

Yes, but owning a lightsabre doesn’t make you a good guy.

And I doubt Luke told all and sundry in the Alliance the details of his life and training.

Maybe they thought he was just a deluded guy with a laser sword.

Remember Han’s conversation with Kenobi on the way to Alderaan? Just what does the current population know of the Force and the Jedi, beyond stories and a catchphrase - saying "May the Force be with you/us” doesn’t mean you believe - plenty of people say things like “with the help of God”, or “Good God” or invoke the names of God, Jesus and Allah despite not believing in Jesus or Allah - I knew a Rabbi who, more than once, was heard to proclaim “Jesus Christ” in a moment of stress.

Plus, the important fact that the only living witness to the events in Death Star throne room is Luke himself. Even Leia and Han would have a hard time accepting that Vader did something good in the end - they’d only believe it because Luke said it. There is a glaxay full of Vader’s victims - why would they believe his son of all people?

It’s only natural to feel that way - whether it is right or wrong.

[

Yes, but

(1) he earned that rank prior to finding out himself Vader was his father

(2) we know even know if others in the Alliance know that Luke is a “Jedi in waiting”, it has been three years since Kenobi died and although he has learned a little, his priority has clearly been on the fight against the Empire - I’m not saying he hid it, but was it ever an issue he discussed with Wedge, etc. - of course he would have talked about Kenobi, his father (as he knew him - plus wasn’t there a scene added to the Episode IV Special Edition showing Red Leader telling Luke he once fought with Anakin in the Clone Wars? - he may have met others too ) and there was the light sabre of course - but none of that means Luke can use the Force by comrades who mistrusted him because he could use the Force would learn quickly he was a good man, because they actually fought with him and actually got to know him.

[quote="darth-sinister, post: 51692567, member: 426497”]

Obi-wan says that it was bait to establish a connection trace. But while Maul says that the trace was correct, but he never said it was from the transmission.[/quote]

I was certain that Maul also said “connection” but that aside you’ve established the point I was making - Obi-Wan’s warning that it was “bait to establish a connection trace” and Maul remark later about the “trace” are obviously the same thing.

[quote="darth-sinister, post: 51692567, member: 426497”]

Except they had military strategy before then. On Geonosis, the Jedi didn't realize that they were walking into a trap. They thought that they had the advantage. The same way the Alliance that they had the advantage going to Endor.[/quote]

To the best of my knowledge, there is no mention in the PT or TCW of the Jedi ever leading an army or engaged in battle planning.

I’m not saying they aren’t good at it.

[quote="darth-sinister, post: 51692567, member: 426497”]

Yes, resourceful, clever and tough, but that is not experience in battle planning and leadership.

Krell is a prime example of bad leadership and battle strategy - it is never specified when, prior to Umbara that he started to turn bad but he used to win battles by just spending an overwhelming amount of clones against the enemy until they were over run (this does not mean he had already turned or he would have raised the suspicion of others) and he greatly underestimated the resolve of the 501st against him.

He used cunning, the clones used strategy to take him down.

[quote="darth-sinister, post: 51692567, member: 426497”]

Right and there's also the Vatican in Rome which governs the Catholic church. And during the era of Arthur, according to legend, he had the infamous round table by which his most trusted knights worked together when it came to where they were deployed and how business was conducted. Note how the Council was circular?[/quote]

I’m not 100% on this, but I’m fairly certain some legends of Camelot say the Knights of the Roundtable became to caught up in various other distractions to see the danger approach - at least that is one story I read years ago - I think.

I’m not sure what point you were making with the governing of the Catholic Church yourself but I don’t see it as a positive reinforcement of the benefits of a hierarchy in a spiritual order.

In the early years of Christianity, preachers used solely the words of Jesus teaching when the live and for a few there was lessons afterwards.

It was an order, with a spiritual leader, but then it become the popular religion of Rome, who used it as an excuse and tool to spread their power. Then it became on organisation unto itself with a hierarchy that influence in almost every nation, bishops with armies who sought power, flesh and wealth.

Even in the good times they created their own rules with little to do with Word of God.

The more recent controversy of abuse and cover up are too serious a matter to discuss but suffice to say that the Catholic Church would be a better place if the good priests and bishops worked more or less independent and were able to concentrate on their flock without being pegged down by the arcane rules of times past.

With organisation came corruption.

Now the Jedi weren’t corrupt, but they couldn’t see the rot in the Republic until it was too late.


[quote="darth-sinister, post: 51692567, member: 426497”]

Which is what the Council is there for.[/quote]

And they did give wise advice, but they were also enforcing rules. The right thing to do can often be hindered by the way things are “supposed” to be done.


[quote="darth-sinister, post: 51692567, member: 426497”]

"One of the problems of Sith is that they are always quick to anger. This scene with her it was very important that we set it up to the point where he chokes her as he does with one of the generals in ANH. But at the same time he doesn’t kill her and he just causes her to faint but you get to see that flash of anger which he now doesn’t have much control over. The whole point in a Jedi is that you can completely control your anger and now he’s at a point where he can't control it at all and it's because of his need for his control for power and he gets very upset when he can't have it. And now he’s assuming that she’s with Obi-wan, not necessarily in a love relationship or anything, in the basis that they are both on one side of the path and he’s going down the other."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary[/quote]

One of my points here was that I - me, myself - had never said anything about a Jedi being “controlled by his emotions” - I meant I didn’t say those words previously, but I didn’t explain that well.

In regards to Anakin choking Padmé, he doesn’t have control over his anger, that is why he does it.

Similarly, when Luke lashes out at the thought of Vader targeting Leia, he flies into a frenzy of fear and rage - absolutely no control over it. When he realises what he is doing, I’ve never thought of that as getting control over the anger, but rather just letting it go completely and he turns to face the Emperor he is in a state of peace - controlling the anger says to that it is still there but he has a lid on it and if this was the case we’d still it in his face or how he holds himself

 

Happy ever after isn't really an issue regardless of other films. There would still be work, but other themes can come into play without diminishing Luke's desire to continue the Jedi Order. And he'd do it regardless of what the galaxy thinks.

TCW ended because it was expensive and had surpassed 100 episodes. Popular cartoons get cancelled all the time because of profit. Hasbro cancelled the first "Transformers" cartoon in the US, despite it still being a strong seller. Mattel shifted production focus from "Masters Of The Universe" to "Princess Of Power", even though the former line was still making hand over fist. A CGI show like TCW is expensive due to CGI over cell animation and after so many years, will wind up being cancelled. Lucas kept the show going because he believed in the stories being told. Disney wanted to shift focus and start over with a newer show, which will have lower costs. Hasbro did the same thing with "Transformers: Beast Wars" after three seasons in the late 90's, going to "Transformers Beast Machines" and recently with "Transformers Prime" shifting to the upcoming "Transformers: Robots In Disguise". "Detours" will still happen. That's more of a marketing gambit.

Kevin Smith confirmed Stormtroopers. As to the rest, this is "Star Wars", not "X-Men".

Abrams already said that the film will be similar to ANH. That there will be familiarity.

It didn't change until the Sith tried to change it and it ultimately was proven to be false with the Battle of Yavin 4 and the destruction of Alderaan.

And again, there was no sign of problems. Luke was well liked despite his being a Jedi.

The story won't focus on them. It'll be on the new generation and the returning generation.

Except they were. Geonosis was proof of that even before the clones arrived. Not all of the Jedi were in the arena and not all of the Jedi that went there were killed.

Criminals, yes. Civilians, no unless they're criminals. As to the rest, the films portray the Alliance as being the same with different leaders per planet.

No, but blowing up the Death Star and rescuing Senator Organa did.

Except Leia vouched for him as the Padawan of General Obi-wan Kenobi, the Great Negotiator and a hero in the Clone Wars who served the Senate and the House of Organa. Who she was sent to recruit.

Rabbis acknowledge that Christ existed. They also believe in God. They differ with Christianity, but they still acknowledge things. The younger generation may not believe in the Jedi on the basic whole, but the older and wiser people do. This is demonstrated in the OT.

Han and Leia believe because Luke wouldn't lie to them and the fact that he is there is proof. As to the rest, quite a few would believe Luke as well. Again, he is there and has no reason to lie.

Except people who saw Luke use the basic skills like mind tricks, blocking blaster bolts and lifting up his saber or blaster. Plus, he hit an impossible shot without a targeting computer.

Trace through the Force is also a viable answer.

There was no massive army, but there was local security. Any time that the Senate and the Council gave permission for the Jedi to get involved, they would be the ones to take charge.

Krell didn't care for the clones which is why he was arrogant about their ability to defeat him and why he was willing to send them out as he did.

What happened to the Jedi was the result of not adapting to face the Sith, but it wasn't a condemnation about the Council. As to Rome, the fact is that there is an organized body that runs the show. Regardless of greed and selfishness. Today, the main corruption only centers around sexual abuse scandals and the occasional money issue.

If not for rules, we'd be up in a tree still, flinging our feces at each other. Rules are necessary for a civilized society and rules can be changed and altered. There just has to be a willingness to adapt. We already know that Luke is following at least one tenant in that he doesn't have a family other than Leia.

Not in dispute.

One must control the anger so that it cannot rise up as it did. Letting go is part of it, but the control is that in battle, a Jedi must hold it down and not let it out. They let go when they are calm and at peace. Hence why Mace isn't happy when Anakin has his outburst in the Council chambers.

 

I'm hoping Luke has mastered the 'middle' of the force. Not light/dark, just a strange balance. It always seemed kind of silly to me that it was all such extreme opposites (something Star Wars does well) instead of having some kind of middle ground. I know there are EU characters like this and such, but the light/dark side conflict seems so cliche anymore, and we all know that people can have negative/dark emotions and not be evil at all in the real world.

But eh, I guess I'm just not a kid anymore and want everything to fit into these nice two boxes with Red vs. Blue iconic sabers clashing. Hoping for more complexity this time around.

Just my general thoughts as of late, as I have not the time to skim through or even weigh on on the insanely intense discussion actually going on in here. I think you all are seriously over-thinking these things....

 

The TPM novelization says about the history of the Jedi: "Founded as a theological and philisophical study group so far back that its origins were the stuff of myth, the Jedi had only gradually become aware of the presence of The Force. Years had been spent in study, in contemplation of its meaning, in mastery of its power. Slowly the order had evolved, abandoning its practice of and belief in a life of isolated meditation in favor of a more outward-looking commitment to social responsibility."

 

I liked the ANH novelization's take on it - that The Force was being used (ineptly) very early on:

In the hut:

"I wish I knew what Vader was after. Sometimes I have the feeling he is marking time for some incomprehensible abomination. Such is the destiny of one who masters the Force and is consumed by its dark side."
Luke's face twisted in confusion. "A force? That's the second time you've mentioned a "force"."
Kenobi nodded. "I forget sometimes in whose presence I babble. Let us say simply that the force is something a Jedi must deal with. While it has never been properly explained, scientists have theorized it is an energy field generated by living things. Early man suspected its existence, yet remained in ignorance of its potential for millennia.
"Only certain individuals could recognize the force for what it was. They were mercilessly labelled: charlatans, fakers, mystics - and worse. Even fewer could make use of it. As it was usually beyond their primitive controls, it frequently was too powerful for them. They were misunderstood by their fellows - and worse."
Kenobi made a wide, all-encompassigng gesture with both arms. The force surrounds each and every one of us. Some men believe it directs our actions, and not the other way around. Knowledge of the force and how to manipulate it was what gave the Jedi his special power."
The arms came down and Kenobi stared at Luke until the youth began to fidget uncomfortably. When he spoke again it was in a tone so crisp and unaged that Luke jumped in spite of himself. "You must learn the ways of the force also, Luke - if you're to come with me to Alderaan."

And on the Falcon:

"No, Luke, your cuts should flow, not be so choppy," Kenobi instructed gently. "Remember, the force is omnipresent. It envelops you as much as it radiates from you. A Jedi warrior can actually feel the force as a physical thing."
"It is an energy field, then?" Luke enquired.
"It is an energy field and something more," Kenobi went on, almost mystically. "An aura that both controls and obeys. A nothingness that can accomplish miracles." he looked thoughtful for a moment.
"No-one, not even the Jedi scientists, were able to truly define the Force. Possibly no-one ever will. Sometimes there is as much magic as science in the explanations of the force. Yet what is a magician but a practicing theorist? Now, let's try again."

 

The music tells me that Luke is doing a good thing when he lashes out at Darth after he threatens Leia. Luke is not dogmatic and hypocritical like Yoda was. He knows anger is ok sometimes. You have to stop before you execute someone, but you must use your passion and anger to defend your loved ones. A ban on emotional attachment was not a winning plan for the Jedi. Too detached, you lose everything. Too attached, you lose everything. Sith and Jedi were extremists. There was no balance.