ST Luke Skywalker's New (or Old) Jedi Order?

But they're not using a power that will corrupt them and turn them into evil. A Jedi is not supposed to feel fear, anger and hate. When Luke attacks Vader, he is in danger of becoming evil. That is why things are bad until Luke finally realizes that he is doing what Palpatine and Vader want him to do. That his fear is himself and the darkness within. Hence he lets go. Luke and his Jedi will not be middle of the road.

"The key issue in these movies is for a Jedi not to use anger when he’s fighting. So the final confrontation here is primarily about trying to make Luke become angry, so that when he fights his father he’s fighting in anger, therefore begins to use the dark side of the Force, and therefore sort of succumbs to the dark side of the Force. In The Empire Strikes Back we had them confront each other and fight together. But in this film Luke has become more mature so that now he knows he shouldn’t be fighting him—that is the path to the dark side. So it’s basically a confrontation between two people and one of them doesn’t want to fight, and the other one keeps trying to push him into it. And then in the end when he gives up and they really do fight, what’s happening there is that ultimately Luke is turning to the dark side, and all is going to be lost."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary, 2004

"It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it’s only in the last act—when he throws his sword down and says, “I’m not going to fight this”—that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him."

--George Lucas, Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000

"If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is gray. In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. "

--George Lucas, Time Magazine article, 2002

 

It's kind of hard to keep talking about the importance of "balance" and then have your protagonists constantly talk about destroying the Sith/Dark Side. That's not balance, that's just dominating things the other way.

 

Maybe Force-sensitives were persecuted, leading a group of them to flee to Tython and and study why they had powers that nobody else did. Eventually, their studies led them ti discover The Force.

 

The talk of Gwendoline possibly being a non-Force-using lightsaber-wielder got me thinking... What if the villains of the ST have a sort of "anti-Force" ideology, maybe arguing that Force-users are no more special than non-Force-users. They don't use the Force and they're determined to prove that the Jedi are NOT special by besting them at their own game, like lightsaber combat. It'd honestly be kind of fascinating if there were no Sith or Dark Side users, just normal people who train themselves to peak human condition (parkour experts!) in an attempt to hunt Jedi to prove a point.

Think an army of people like Syndrome from The Incredibles.

 

Actually, that sounds pretty interesting. Instead of a gigantic evil Galactic Empire, it's a well-organized a fanatical terrorist group/cult. I like it.

 

I would call what Luke did by disarming Vader, then stopping, balance. He used his emotions, then controlled them afterward. All would have been lost if he did not stop. Lucas said he was "sort of" "turning" to the dark side. Not actually turned to the darkside just because he used anger.

 

it also reminds me of the Legend of Korra.

 

You're missing the point.

 

I'm sure the point wasn't to be totally pacifistic and non emotional, but like Lucas said, to strike a balance. Lucas said if he made 7-9 it would be how good and evil are not really all that different, it's where you draw the line. There is a very thin edge.

"The third [trilogy will] deal with moral and philosophical problems," Lucas said in 1983. "In Star Wars, there is a very clear line drawn between good and evil. Eventually you have to face the fact that good and evil aren't that clear-cut and the real issue is trying to understand the difference."
Well, the difference is shown by Luke, not Yoda. Yoda did not know.

 

Sorry for the delay - I typed this out in a text app and thought I had already posted it

The “happy ever after” is an issue - at the time Lucas was putting the Saga behind him. He took elements from the storyline he envisioned for the ST and brought them into RotJ to wrap it up. That was to be end of Luke’s story, there was no EU.

I’m sure expense was a consideration in ending TCW - as was manpower - if they could have carried on with TCW while making Rebels, they may well have done so.
However, it was the only Star Wars out there - the books and comics don’t cross the boundaries of fandom.
Ending it was the real gambit

Stormtroopers is no indiction that the Empire is the primary threat - he has seen stormtroopers (or at least the armour) but we don’t know if he has seen it in context.
X-Men does not hold the monopoly on, nor is it the progenitor of, the idea of a heroes being hated and feared by those who protect them.

Familiarity does not mean facsimile. And Kennedy says it will have the look of RotJ, someone else says TESB because of Kasdan.
It will be Episode VII.

You are responding with good, reasonable common sense as to why the people of the galaxy would hate or be predjudiced against Luke and other Force user.
The lack of good, reasonable common sense is one of the factors missing in people who are prejudiced and hate people who are different to them - even those who should know better.

Yes, and that doesn’t mean Abrams or another writer can’t explore the possibility.

I never said it would - the story doesn’t need to focus on them or the citizens of the ST galaxy but it helps to establish the background of the conflicts and the worlds
The point was that the Lucas never delved into the life of the other Rebels, all we needed to know was that they all fought against the Empire.
Consequentially, there is nothing that means that after the common enemy is defeated that they all continue to get along and reform another one government galaxy - after all that was one of the causes of the war in the first place.
Similarly, Abrams won’t put on the regular folks of the ST - but the politics, etc. can be used to set up the story

There is nothing in the PT that says they were good military leaders and planners. In fact, the first battle of Geonosis says the opposite of what you say - they were trapped in the arena, more Jedi dead than were standing UNTIL Yoda and the clones arrived.
They don’t seemed to have planned it very well.
The attack on Endor is different - the Rebels sent spies, gathered intel, planned the attack on the planet and in space - yes, it was a trap but the situation is not the same

Everyone is susceptible to fear and predjudice, irrelevant of intellect and social/economic backgrounds.

That doesn’t mean everyone is going to love and trust him.
I’ll say it again - fear and prejudice does not go together with common sense and the facts

Leia’s word may not be good enough for everyone - and just because General Dadonna and Bail
Organa want a Jedi in the ranks does not mean they all do.

It isn’t though - we never see or are told who believes or who doesn’t - who of the older characters in the Alliance has ever seen a Jedi (big galaxy, few Jedi, many would know the tales but not everyone bares witness) - we know from the TCW that Ackbar has fought with them, Mon Mothma was supposed to feature as a senator in the PT so she would have but I know her speaking role was cut but I don’t know if she was on screen at - if she wasn’t then it doesn’t really count.
I don’t know if all Rabbis (which is implied in how you said it) acknowledge that Jesus Christ existed, especially since their is no real historical proof, but they don’t accept that Jesus was the Messiah that was foretold - which Christians do. Therefore the exclamation of the name makes no sense in that regard - it is just something that people say for comfort, etc.just like May the Force be with you

As I said in my post, yes, Leia and Han would believe him.
And yes, quite a few others would to. That is a lot less than everyone, which is what you were saying earlier.
And, there is are reasons why people would think he was lying - he is the the son of Darth Vader, who spread death and terror across the stars - is it really beyond the realm of possibility that people would doubt he actually became a hero in the end

The only one of those that we know other Rebels see is the shot at the Death Star - and we don’t see him asked for an explanation.
At the start of TESB, he can’t use the Force on the light sabre without great difficulty. He clearly hasn’t been doing it a lot.
Again, I’m not saying they don’t know - but likewise we aren’t told they do.

Not really, because it is made clear the trace was made through the communication - and because Maul didn’t find them on the planet without the probes.
It is clearly made to be a foreshadowing to the audience that Anakin is nearby, regardless that Qui-Gon doesn’t appear to sense him on the first meeting.

That isn’t stated in the films, in fact, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan can’t take charge of Naboo security.

Yes, but he also lack the strategy skills. He was always victorious because he just sent wave after wave.

My point about the Catholic Church IS that it is an organisation with a history of greed and corruption.
Individual bishops and priest could still be bad, and do those terrible things, but with an organisation around they should have been stopped. Instead the organisation used its power and influence to cover up the crimes and protect evil people instead of the innocent.
Without that power, the guilty would have vulnerable to justice.
That is proof that an organisation is not necessarily a good thing.
I’m not condemning the Jedi Council. Or the Jedi Order.
I’m simply pointing out that Jedi don’t necessarily need it and there are reasons why they can do better work without it.

Yes, but Jedi, with a good heart like Luke, doesn’t need to have a list of rules to obey. Sometimes doing the right thing means breaking the accepted rules, so isn’t it better to let a good Jedi just follow their conscience.
And you don’t know for a fact that Luke doesn’t have a family of his own in the new movie.

You were saying much earlier that Luke controls his anger and directs it at Vader, I said he can’t control it, then gave the quote from Lucas that says Anakin can’t control his anger.

Yes, but I was saying that Luke isn’t controlled by his anger in the final part of of the duel, nor does he control when he stops attacking Vader - he just lets it go out of him and is calm when turning to Palpatine.

 

The Jedi and the Sith are not the Force. They're just individuals who use it. The dark side and the light both exist with and without them. What happened in the films is that Palpatine blurred the lines between good and evil, light and dark, black and white and created an imbalance. He had to be eliminated for balance to return. It is that simple.

Read that again. A Jedi cannot use anger to fight. Nor be filled with fear and hate. When he says, "sorta", he's talking about in TESB. Luke went to Cloud City out of fear for his loved ones. His attachment to them was strong. When he faces Vader, he's filled with all these dark emotions about his father and his father's killer.

"In The Empire Strikes Back it’s the first time that the antagonist and protagonist actually fight each other. So that it is a very big fight and Luke now has become proficient enough to be able to face Darth Vader. So it’s a slightly one-sided sword fight where Vader has the advantage over him. Luke didn’t know that Vader was his father for the fight part, so that what was happening was he though he was fighting his bitter enemy. So he was fighting as hard as he could; he was fighting the man who killed his father; fighting the man who killed Obi-Wan Kenobi; fighting the man who would personify evil in the universe."

--George Lucas, “The Birth of the Lightsaber,” Star Wars: Bonus Material DVD, 2004

"Part of the going into the tree is learning about the Force. Learning about the fact that the Force is within you, and at the same time, you create your own bad vibes. So, if you think badly about things or you act badly, or you bring fear into a situation, you're going to have to defend yourself or you're going to have to suffer the consequences for that. In this particular case, he takes his sword in with him which means he's going to have combat. If he didn't, he wouldn't. He's creating this situation in his mind because, on a larger level, what caused Darth Vader to become Darth Vader is the same thing that makes Luke bring that sword in with him. And so, just as later on we find out Darth Vader is actually his father - so he is part of himself - but he has the capacity to become Darth Vader simply by using hate and fear and using weapons as oppose to using compassion and caring and kindness. But that's the big danger of the series, is that he will become Darth Vader."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

So Luke chooses to initiate the fight with Vader because he wants revenge for his father's death.

VADER: "Obi-Wan has taught you well. You have controlled your fear...now release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me."

That is not balance.

That's not what Lucas was saying. He's not saying that Luke shouldn't fight, but that he shouldn't be lead by his emotions when he fights. Just as Obi-wan, Yoda, Qui-gon and most of the other Jedi did. Luke learns that his failure was that he chose to fight his father, because he let his emotions get the better of him. He was fighting himself more than his father. That's why Luke throws down his saber and surrenders his life for his father's. His failure in the cave was that he took his Lightsaber with him and killed Vader, which he then saw that he would become Vader in doing so.

That still doesn't change that everything is over. That there would be work done, regardless of Lucas choosing to tell that story or not.

Not really a gambit, but a matter of practicality. The show could have continued and Disney could recruit a separate studio to animate either show. Money was the issue more than marketing. Hell, Hasbro had two competing "Transformers" cartoon series going, with two different animation styles. This is continuing even now, with a new show in development and the other show getting a third season. So Disney could've done it, but cost is a factor.

I doubt it's going to be a case of multiple threats outside of the Empire. But the fact is that the Empire is there. As to the rest, no, but as it is, that isn't SW.

Given that there was no hostility towards the Jedi and the Alliance in ROTJ, much less after the last Jedi vs Sith war, I'd say it isn't much of an issue.

The Republic has existed for over a thousand generations. The war was the result of a Sith Lord manipulating events. That doesn't mean that a centralized government is a bad idea.

Not really. It just means that overwhelming odds were at play. Not that the plan was a bad one. And yes, the battle of Endor is the same because both times, the Sith allowed the opposition to walk into a trap thinking that they had an advantage. The only difference is that the first trap was only designed to start the war, while the second was to end it. And intel, the intel was given away by Palpatine who falsified the plans to make it look like the Death Star wasn't operational.

Criminals fear the Jedi because they're cops. The average citizen wouldn't have reason to fear a Jedi, especially in light of a Jedi helping to topple the Empire.

That's not going to stop Luke regardless. But a lot of people will trust and come to respect the Jedi again, because he fought for freedom.

It obviously was. Luke proved himself as did Han. Both were respected and trusted. The Alliance grew with their involvement.

Mon Mothma was in the scene when Palpatine meets with the Jedi and senators after his rescue. But as it is, there's more than enough people either from the Clone Wars, or who fought alongside Luke.

That may be presumptuous on my part, but my point is that enough Rabbis are familiar with the the tale to even invoke the name the same way that Christians have.

Anakin Skywalker was one a Jedi who fought in the Clone Wars and was a hero of the wars. His being a hero again is not out of the question. Especially in regards to saving his son who is there to tell the tale.

The Rebels at Yavin know he's a Jedi. That is enough for them. And yes, Luke is having difficulty, but he's still managed to use the Force. That's why he says to Yoda that he's learned quite a bit when they first meet.

Not really. One can still use the Force to track the planet, but not the exact location.

Read that again. Anytime the Council and the Senate give the Jedi permission to lead, then they will. Qui-gon did not have permission either time.

That doesn't indicate a lack of strategy, but a lack of compassion for his troops to employ other methods.

And nothing indicates that the Council was a problem. In fact, business got done because of it.

The Jedi still did things on their own that the Council forbade, for good or ill. The Council was there to make sure that they didn't go too far. Qui-gon is an example of that. Enforcing of rules is important because without a lack of control, things would go bad. If every Jedi did what they felt was right, the whole thing would have fallen apart and the Sith would rise again. In fact, that's precisely how the Sith got started. One Jedi felt that the Council and the Order as a whole was wrong for serving the Republic, instead of ruling it. He found fifty others who shared his world view and created the Sith Order. A Council is needed and rules to prevent such things from happening again. As to a family, Lucas said that one of things that would be different from the EU, was that Luke didn't have a family.

As noted that Anakin had become evil, while Luke hadn't. That's why Luke had control and his father didn't. Luke has control until he looses control when Leia is threatened, by which point he lets his anger control him.

 

It is very possible that Luke will start the Rule of Two equivalent for the Jedi - only a master and a padawan. It would make sense, considering that the RoT made the Sith more powerful than when they were an entire order.
And we've seen how the old Jedi Order was defeated by only two Sith. So what's the point of having an army of Jedi again?
I continue to support the idea that the galaxy is reluctant to accept the Jedi having any kind of power. I expect most people to not trust Force-users anymore, perhaps even openly criticizing them.
In this scenario, having only one apprentice is easier to keep an eye on him/her and makes it easier to keep a low profile.
If the ST will be filled with "philosophical debates", then whether there should be another Jedi Order can be an interesting topic to explore.

 

The Sith can afford such a rule since they only care about their own personal power. The Jedi Order exists to help people and one Master/Apprentice team can do much less then a hundred. And there are simply much more then 2 people with the potential to use the Force in the galaxy. Why should only person be trained at any given time?

 

Right. The Sith were power hungry and willing to enlist another to overthrow another Sith. By their very nature, the Sith were traitorous. The Jedi don't care for power for its own sake, but in the knowledge of the Force and their ability to grow stronger as a result. That's why the Jedi numbered in ten thousand range before the Clone Wars. The closest to there being only two Jedi, was in the individual training between a Master and a Padawan, wherein this allowed the former the opportunity to guide their student and make sure they become proficient in the ways of the Jedi. Two Masters and Padawans working together on missions built up the spirit of cooperation among their ranks. A Master, a Knight and a Padawan working together as we saw with Obi-wan, Anakin and Ahsoka was more about combat experience than training, as we see only Anakin training her with Obi-wan only giving orders when necessary, but not instruction.

 

Not giving into ones anger, espically to an extreme the way LUke did at the end of RotJ is not the same as being pacifist and non-emotional.

 

Don't know if this is a good place to post this, but did anyone see Kevin Smith's interview from comicon on ign?
He talks about his star wars visit, says he can talk about the falcon becuase it's out there now, but can't specifically talk about anything else, but he let something slip that i found interesting.
he was gushing how everything was tactile, he said, there were real blasters, lightsabers (plural) and other stuff.

the important part is plural lightsabers. This may be a good hint that there are more than one jedi in the movie.

 

You, know you, 1 Jedi and 1 Sith/villain.

 

It could be one of two things.

1. Multiple Lightsabers to denote more than one character. Much less two.

2. Multiple copies of one or two designs, only for two characters.

As to actual blasters, there were actual blaster props used save for the Clonetroopers. But overall, yeah, they were there.

 

Yeah I know, I was thinking that when he was gushing too... i think he was gushing about the scale of the real props - thus it seemed to imply how he said it (perhaps just hearing that way with hope) that there were a bunch of lightsabers around

 

Remember too that there are lots of copies of individual props. One character using a lightsaber could mean 10 or more props.

 

Ya that is true

 

Still good that there are lightsabers

 

Of course there would be Lightsabers.

 

Why wouldn't there be lightsabers?