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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Luke Skywalker's New (or Old) Jedi Order?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Dra---, Aug 19, 2013.

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  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Where the Jedi change is that one, Luke was raised by his family which taught him compassion in a different manner. He grew up understanding the family unit dynamic which informed his decision to save his father, as he could feel the good within him. The Jedi of old never knew their family and so they couldn't feel compassion for the Sith the same way. They didn't hate the Sith, but they weren't willing to try and save them either.
     
  2. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    May 25, 2000
    All this talk about Luke and/or the Jedi being shiny happy redeemer monkeys are forgetting something: the same Jedi who was all like "I can't kill him, I've felt the good in him" is also the same Jedi who was all like "either you give me Han Solo and I pay you a crap-ton of money, or I will kill everybody up in this place and take him anyway" and proceeded to do just that.
     
  3. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2009
    That debate went on for a long time - considering we both had the se opinion :)

    That is security.

    And Jedi can watch each other - should one misbehave other Jedi can bring that one to book, or Luke can come around and ask what the story is...

    Then there is also the local authorities - unlike in the PT era the Jedi shouldn't be allowed to act with impunity - no matter the situation, eg. maiming a young woman in a bar and telling the locals to mind their own business.

    Not being sworn to one central government does not mean being outside or above the law - the Jedi should be subject to the law of the system they in, just like everyone else.

    As I said above, they'd keep each other in check as would the local authorities - yes, they'd be "agents of their own power" just like everyone else :)

    Now you're not saying Yoda is taking the blame - you are blaming him.

    And he didn't "train the Jedi" - the implication here being ALL the Jedi - I'm guessing that he trained a lot, but only two Jedi are shown as his apprentices - Dooku and Luke.

    He has had a hand in instructing many other Jedi in his life but only one of his Padawans went bad.

    Yes, but nothing in the scene indicates that he did - the interaction between the two is of strangers - if they were supposed to have met, or Yoda knew him from more than just research or history books, I think Lucas and Filoni would have used that.

    Okay, so Yoda does blame himself - and so do you apparently ;) - but blaming himself doesn't mean that it all his fault - he should have brought in reforms but how many others came and went in those 800 years? And he does come across as the most opened mind member of the Council - I think the statement is one born of survivors guilt.

    Is that quote in the movie too? It seems familiar but I've never read the novelisation.

    First of all, you keep saying that I'm talking about Jedi who "do what they want" - I haven't said that - I'm talking about Jedi who want to do the right thing. Since, when is someone doing good considering doing whatever they want to do? Often times it interferes with the thing you do want, eg. how many superheroes have put their duty ahead of a personal life, how many parents work overtime and miss time with their kids, etc.

    No, doing the right thing and does not lead to the belief that you can do anything you want - "thinking" you can do anything you want leads to the "belief" you can do anything you want ;)

    You misunderstand - I mean that there are also independent systems and other interstellar powers, eg. In the Prequel era there is the Corporate Sector Authority, the Mandalore system, etc. and the Outer Rim is outside the jurisdiction of the Republic's power. There is no reason to assume the galaxy is going to want to go back to a system where one man or a small group can take that much power again.

    There was a time when the Republic and the Jedi had the same goals, but it wasn't always like that - the Republic was rotting from within and it brought down both itself and Jedi - plus having the the Jedi so integral in the workings of the government put Anakin under the direct influence of Sidious.

    Why would Luke want to risk that all over again?

    If the Jedi are free of an allegiance to one power them they can act for the good of all.


    It wasn't fate righting what had gone wrong - the balance wasn't restored because it was always destined to be no what happened or how long it took - it was one moment of love between a father and son - the balance was restored as a consequence of that.

    Destiny is not set in stone and fate is not inescapable.

    What happened with Luke and Anakin on the Death Star was greater than that?

    What do you mean by "Leia was captured "when Luke chose to run from his destiny of confronting his father"?

    I don't see what Leia getting captured in ANH has to do with it.

    And Luke didn't run away from facing Vader. He refused to fight him at first but that isn't the same thing.
     
  4. JediMatteus

    JediMatteus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Sep 16, 2008
    as i said on one of these threads before. Luke has unique values from how and where he grew up. It is different than the sterile values and morals in the Jedi Temple. I rarely saw compassion among the old order Jedi. It was talked about more than seen i think. Luke's values should make hsi jedi order different than any other


    So what kind of comics/novels can we expect with Luke in them of the past 30 years? Will he be alone the whole time, will he be secretly starting a working jedi order? maybe it was destroyed by the empire and by episode 7 he has to start over.
     
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  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The Jedi watching each other is where the Council comes from. So that all the decisions can be weighed by a body of Jedi, not just one Jedi calling the shots. So that differing opinions can be voiced and heard, resulting in a compromise on how best to proceed. The Sith way is the Dark Lord calls the shots and his Apprentice must obey or suffer the consequences.

    The Jedi were assigned by the Council, on behalf of the Chancellor, to protect Padme. Zam tried again and the Jedi went after her. Just like security would. Obi-wan cutting off the assassin's hand, who was going to shoot him, was a way of disabling her. The time it takes to slice her blaster, she can pull out a second and kill Obi-wan. Cutting off the hand renders her incapable of trying that. The same way that Obi-wan cut off Ponda Baba's arm to save Luke. Anakin's warning was to prevent someone from interfering, the same way the police say the same thing.

    Except you have Jedi who start doing what they want, because they haven't sworn an oath to uphold the laws of the Republic. And then it gets worse with each passing day.

    The police have someone that they report to and someone that polices the police.

     
  6. Redimet

    Redimet Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2014
    I have a quick question which Jedi do you blame the most for the fall of the Jedi Order?
     
  7. Han Drolo

    Han Drolo Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 9, 2014
    In what context exactly? Blame is a strong word.
     
  8. Redimet

    Redimet Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2014
    You are sitting in the Jedi council chamber which Jedi do you point the finger at? All of them, only a select few or even none of them?
     
  9. JediMatteus

    JediMatteus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Sep 16, 2008

    i don't agree. soembody has to be thrown to the wolves over this catastrophe. I say all of them because they were all too weak to see what the dark side was planning. But to get specific i blame Yoda. he was stagnant and i peace for so long he dropped the ball. of course you have to blame Qui Gon a little for rescuing Anakin. The galaxy might have been a better place if Anakin lived his life out in Tatooine as a slave.
     
  10. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    I blame Windu the most. Windu tried to take the law into his own hands, making the Jedi look like traitors.
     
  11. Han Drolo

    Han Drolo Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 9, 2014
    All of them imo.

    You Jedi can sense the slightest disturbance in the force like some scumbag not paying his tab at a bar in the underworld of Coruscant , yet none of you can sense that this old geezer Palpatine is dark side personified. :p
     
  12. Redimet

    Redimet Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2014
    I think Qui Gon could have stopped a lot from happening the way it did had he been alive. And I do blame Yoda up until TCW arc and the end of ROTS by that time it was to late. I do blame all members of the Order besides Obi-Wan Kit Fisto and Plo Koon.
     
  13. JediMatteus

    JediMatteus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Sep 16, 2008
    I don't see anything wrong with how Mace handled things at all. But i blame him as part of the group.
     
  14. Redimet

    Redimet Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2014
    I think Windu is very much to blame however I think his point of view is explained better in the novel ROTS rather then in the movie.
     
  15. Redimet

    Redimet Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2014
    I think its fascinating to look at Luke and Mace because they are competently and utterly different from each other. Windu was the culmination of everything wrong with the Jedi Order while Skywalker is the embodiment of what the Jedi need to be moving forward. One embodies the old way the other the new.
     
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  16. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Aug 19, 2003
    Please use the 'edit' function rather than stacking multiple consecutive posts. Thank you.
     
  17. JediMatteus

    JediMatteus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Sep 16, 2008
    I agree that Luke is much better example, however Mace was right to try to kill a Sith Lord.
     
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  18. TheBBP

    TheBBP Force Ghost star 6

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    Nov 6, 2012

    The entire order was complacent, ESPECIALLY the council. You cannot blame one Jedi.
     
  19. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Aug 19, 2003
    Yarael Poof spoke out against their complacency. He saw what what happening and criticized the rest of the Order harshly. This is clearly why he is booted off the Council by the time the Clone Wars started.
     
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  20. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

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    Nov 12, 2012
    Blame Obi-Wan! It was his friggin Padawan that started it!
     
  21. TheBBP

    TheBBP Force Ghost star 6

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    Nov 6, 2012

    Obi Wan was following the prophecy as his Master Qui-Gon wanted him to. The destruction of the order came via Palpatine.
     
  22. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

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    Nov 12, 2012

    Yeah, I know and agree. But, if you have the play the "blame one person on the council for the fall of the Jedi" blame game, I'd pick Obi-Wan because he was the closest to the kid for decades. Guilty by association!
     
  23. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Aug 19, 2003
    Besides, Kenobi did kind of offer the whole "I failed you" confession and then repeated it for emphasis.
     
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  24. TheBBP

    TheBBP Force Ghost star 6

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    Nov 6, 2012

    I follow you, but I see Obi Wan as someone who helped the prophecy come true which brought balance to the force. Anakin was not the catalyst for the fall of the order, he was a tool.
     
  25. plaidphoenix

    plaidphoenix Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 6, 2013
    I blame Qui-Gon, he was the idiot who just had to rescue Anakin.
     
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