ST Luke Skywalker's New (or Old) Jedi Order?

I've fad to travel unexpectedly today so I'm sitting on a train and figured I'll have a go at reading and responding to this.

More opinions doesn't necessarily mean a better solution - a Council of 12 couldn't determine the truth about Dooku. And it wasn't always a "vote" - it was Windu's idea to move against Palpatine and the others just followed.

The opinions of two of three Jedi can be just as wise, or unwise, as those of twelve.

Again this is no reason why an organised hierarchy is superior.

Yes, with her hand still attached - maybe they felt it wiser to not say anything lest their own limbs suffer a similar fate.

I always got the feeling that some people in bar were afraid of the Jedi.

How do you know the how a people didn't think the Jedi were reckless or respected them?

Plenty of evidence in the canon of a wide range of emotions both in favour of and against the Jedi.

How?

You've said similar a few times but never explained how.

And what about the millions of innocent people who lived there? Do the Jedi not owe a duty to give then "peace and justice"?

BTW, some Outer Rim worlds are members of the Republic.

Where they aren't "entirely wanted" by who?

The local authorities? The local dictator?

The Jedi should be able to help anybody who needs and request their help. They aren't much good if they are legally obligated to to not help someone.

I don't recall Lucas mentioning the Japanese or American government when he made the comprision.

Plus, I don't think the samurai ever worked for the Japanese government. They were loyal to a lord, not the same thing.

Lucas said they were "guardians of peace and justice", that isn't the same thing as the "law".

In regards to the U.S. Marshals, I always took it that he was referring to the old Wild West movies, were the marshal would rude into town, save the day, take down the bad guy and head for the sunset - yes, the were "lawmen" but it about them bring the good guys - the badge was the "white hat" to distinguish them from the victims and the villains - not their legal standing with the government.

I think it was the same for the samurai comparison - that they are viewed as old time heroes.

That is a great of example of the kind of thing I'm talking about - how much death and damage did Black Adam cause before the heroes got their "visas"?

Do you think the people will care about the legal implications of the Jedi coming to save them?

A Force user is on the loose on Ryloth, killing anyone he meets and law enforcement can't stop him - a Jedi can't fly in because the Alliance has a treaty with, let's say, the Imperial Remnant (on the other border of the Ryloth system) that neither side can enter Ryloth space because it could be views as a pre- emptive strike. So Luke just sits back and hopes the killer leaves comes to Alliance space? No.

Not being allied to the Alliance means he could deal with the matter and the Imperial couldn't claim treaty violation.

PS
Hasn't it been Justice League for many years now?

Do the Avengers cross borders? You only gave DC examples? (Are mutants wanted anywhere? I don't really bother with those characters because the whole prejudice thing for one group but not another doesn't make sense in the same continuity)

Are you certain that no other Jedi fell to the Dark Side in the thousand years since the Sith war?

It irrelevant the cause and time the four Jedi turned to darkness - the fact is they did and the Council didn't see it coming - I'm not sure if they thought Anakin was actually going to fall but they knew he was dangerous and reckless, assigning Ashoka as his Padawan was one attempt to being him into the straight and narrow.

And again, "serving the needs of the Republic" - what about everyone else?

Yes, the CEO can be blame when the bad decision was HIS fault - but the bad decisions aren't always the fault of the leader - they rely on the work of their subordinates too.

Many a leader has fallen because of another's mistake.

Responsibility and fault are not always the same thing.

Yoda training "countless Jedi" is a far cry from them "all being his Padawans

And he didn't teach them to "not change" - he taught them they way he believed best - yes, he didn't see the problems because he was on a comfortable zone and everything was jim-dandy in the GFFA for the most part - even the wisest men aren't wise all the time - Yoda isn't omnipotent.

And he wasn't alone.

You say Yoda should have reformed the Jedi Order and yet you think Luke should start it again?

Isn't that a contradiction?

What rules could he change that would make it better? What should Yoda have done?

Okay, is Youngling not a rank? - know it a common term for talking about children in the GFFA - but I also thought it a Jedi rank.

So are children Padawans as soon as they start to study? Weren't the Younglings in the TCW arc only referred to as Younglings, and not as Padawans?

However, this doesn't change the the fact that they are not HIS Padawans.

Yoda teaches them - but they are not HIS apprentices.

The only person he calls "MY Padawan" is Dooku - any other time he is talking to a learner he just says "Padawan" or "young Padawan" - when Kenobi says it to Anakin, and he to Ashoka, it is "MY".

In TESB, Yoda says he had trained Jedi for 800 years. Never says he trained them all.

Even above, you say he has trained "countless Jedi" - this isn't ALL of them.

Is this policy change after the Sith War in the novelisations?

What change could they have brought in in the thousand years?

You've said Yoda "blocked" changes. When was this? What were they?

It isn't really arrogance on Yoda's part - what should he have changed? There was noting apparently wrong.

Yes, Iron_lord explained that earlier.

That happened under the nose of a Council - happened again a thousand years later.

I fail to see how this supports the argument a Council is needed to prevent it.

Plus, the Sith can't rise again - the line is broken - there is no one left to teach it.

I may have explained my point badly here - I was talking about the Jedi being in such a position that their fall brought down the Republic and how how having a Council isn't a guarantee of being able to keep tabs of an power hungry Force user on the political rise - it happened before.

Yes, they didn't know he was, If a former Padawan of Luke does something similar, Luke will see it.

If this is so then the discussion is moving outside the Star Wars mythology in the real world of storytelling.

If the ST really does give the GFFA the same old political set up - before the rot or not - that is incredibly uncreative and unimaginative movie-making.

We have seen that in two trilogies already - the massive Republic ruling most of the galaxy and the massive Empire ruling most of the galaxy.

You can also count the Legends continuity in that which showed the same thing happening over and over again.

Here's hoping you never get superpowers

The Jedi shouldn't be only be about the big issues - regimes come and go - empires and democracies rise and fall - it is the ordinary people that the most - they keep the galaxy moving

Why shouldn't the Jedi lend them a hand when they are dealt a bad hand?

Superman may not be able to help everyone, but he tries - and that inspires others to help when they might not have before - as consequence the world is a better place.

Of course Anakin wasn't needed for Palpatine's rise and his plans - it was in motion as the bones of the scheme plotted long before he ever heard of the boy, but to say his only purpose was to was "middle finger to the Jedi" is a woeful under appreciation of Anakin & Vader's importance in the GFFA.

I can't even comprehend the statement.

Yoda may have been adamant, but he was wrong - Anakin's tend emotion is proof of that.

I don't know the rumour (I want to be as spoiler free as I can, yes, spoiler section I know, ... ) but if half the rumours floating about are even remotely based in fact the Episode VII is going to be like a cross between the old Marvel Star Wars comics meets the Addams Family

Of course death in inevitable, but how a person dies is not.

How can Padmè die "because of Anakin" and at same time it be because he couldn't accept it was her time?

Shmi died because of the Tusken Raiders and Padmè died because of Anakin.

Skywalker and others could have made different decisions that would have altered the outcome.

He could have gone to Tatooine when the dreams started - it wasn't like he was a by the book Jedi that he couldn't have found a way. Padmè could have not hoy into a relationship with him.

No, Luke's problem (from Yoda's point of view) was that Luke couldn't accept his friends sacrificing themselves for him. Or that the would die when destiny decreed.

He was willing to sacrifice himself for them and never stopped fighting for them.

How do you know Obi-Wan accepted he was going to die on the Death Star?

He knew Vader was there, and he suspected Vader sensed something, but he was clearly a bit shocked when Vader appeared before him - because he was almost at the ship and close to escape.

They reason he stopped fighting was because he knew Luke would try fight his way to him (and perhaps that not so deep down in Solo was the guy who wouldn't leave a man behind) and get killed or captured.

It wasn't that he saw his end coming - he had a lot to teach Luke but the simple fact was the boy was more important than him, and he had to escape.

I think you missed my point.

I don't understand - you've been saying that all the Jedi in the PT were Yoda's Padawans and that he trained ALL of them.

Why couldn't he train Leia and Luke together?

Yes, perhaps he thought Vader would be elsewhere looking for him, but that doesn't mean he was running away by going to Endor - if the Emperor was there this could be the end of the Empire, he wanted to protect his friends and give the Alliance it's best chance - with a Jedi the odds in their favour went up.

Yes, there was an element of avoiding Vader, but also a seeking him right then abandoning his friends.

No it isn't. Luke could have never faced Vader and escaped on into Wild Space and kept on going.

However, Palpatine and Vader would continue to terrorise the galaxy (should the Alliance attack fail) and cause even more evil.

Luke choose to sacrifice himself - to keep the Sith occupied enough that the Rebels only had to deal with the stormtroopers and the fleet.

Any character in in the story can availed their "destiny" - life is about choices - if destiny is pre-determined then choices are irrelevant, maybe not even real because a person is going to do what they are meant to do regardless of anything.

Is there no free will?

And you never explained how Harrison Ford wanting Han Solo to die in RotJ and possibly getting it in the ST has anything to destiny in regard to the story of Star Wars.

I think you'll agree that our correspondence is becoming ridiculously long - we will have to find a way to cut it down it size or it will become unstoppable?

Any ideas how to shed some of the weight?

 

TL;DR

 

The Council not knowing about Dooku was the result of their abilities diminishing, not that the Council was ineffective.

Two to three is as much a Council as a body of twelve. Additional opinions and votes can make all the difference.

By that rationale, there's no reason that a lack of one is superior other than you want to see something different.

If you pull a blaster on a Jedi, just like pulling a gun on a cop, expect to pay a price.

If so, only because they're probably criminals as well.

How do you know that they thought negatively of them?

What evidence?

Because the Force can easily corrupt a Jedi who blurs the lines between right and wrong. We see this in Anakin. He knows that he was wrong, but he did it because he felt justified in doing so. With the Tuskens and with Dooku, even though he also feels guilt as well. More and more the lines blurred until he convinced himself that he was in the right the whole time.

The Jedi have limits, just like everyone else. They cannot be everywhere and they cannot solve every problem. To try would be foolish.

But not all.

Insert police in there and you see the similarities.

The Samurai served the Emperor and thus represented his authority. One Emperor declared all non Japanese citizens were to be removed or executed, because they were considered barbarians. The Samurai had a duty to see that through.

Law connects to justice. Justice is met when the laws are enforced.

Even the Marshals had to obey the law. See Rooster Cogburn and Wyatt Earp.

Likewise, going in where they weren't wanted would have triggered a war. Not long after Adam's actions, the Rocket Reds were sent to arrest Green Lantern Hal Jordan for pursuing a criminal who was wanted by the Guardians. That action could have started an international incident.

Staunch loyalists to the government will.

Actually, they can. The Imperials can claim that Luke violated the treaty by crossing the boarder unwanted and thus an act of war, because they would rather deal with the rogue Force user over a Jedi Knight doing so. I direct you to "Star Trek" where crossing the Neutral Zone to rescue a ship is a violation of the treaties the three major governments have and doing so will be seen as a violation and grounds for going back to war.

The title of each book changes, but overall, they're the Justice League.

The Avengers will go when they're allowed to because of UN charters. For a time there was a team that operated outside of government jurisdictions and without sanctions, but they were also branded as criminals. The X-Men aren't chartered so they come and go, but their actions leave them open to be executed and/or imprisoned for violating boarder rules. X-Factor, for a time, was the only government sanctioned team and went to places that they were legally invited to. The Hulk once went with the Pantheon to fight a war in the Middle East, against a major dictator which resulted in X-Factor being brought in to take him down. His involvement in the war later upset the Avengers, even though he hadn't been a member in years, because he broke international laws. His stance was that he was justified in doing what was right. But this didn't endear him to the team and because he kept doing it, is why Nick Fury was ordered to double tap him when he was stuck as Bruce Banner. Course, the Hulk embarrassed the office of the President after being pardoned for all of his crimes prior to going to war.

Since the old EU is out, we have only what is presented in the films and TCW. The Council never speaks of any Jedi falling during the thousand years of peace.

When those Jedi fell, the Order was growing weak from the dark side growing stronger. Their abilities were diminishing and in the case of Dooku, their arrogance blinded them. The other three happened during the war and they were unable to keep track due to the heavy toll the war was taking.

Sucks to be them.

But they are in this case, because he was responsible for the conduct of the Jedi Order due to his being the one who did the training.

They're Padawans the minute they enter the Temple. The use of Youngling is just a term of endearment and not a rank. Hence Yoda calling Jack a Padawan.

That's the point. He rested on his laurels and it bit him in the ass. The Jedi should always evolve and change. They stopped learning because he let pride and arrogance blind him.

He was due to the fact that he could have initiated change by bringing up to any iteration of the Council.

First, Yoda says that the Jedi should return and Luke agrees with him. Second, it isn't a contradiction. Reform has more than one meaning. Instituting changes to the way the Jedi train, for one. We see that with the Skywalkers being raised by families. Whatever comes next, we'll see as we go along.

As I said, Youngling is a term of endearment. Not a rank. Dooku was called, "My Padawan" because that's how Lucas wrote the line. The EU created a whole work around, but that doesn't matter since it was never brought up in the films or the cartoon. Yoda is seen training Jedi in groups and starting at a young age.

Everything was wrong. That's why the Jedi were weak and unable to stop the Sith. The Jedi needed to change because they forgot how to have true compassion for someone. What Yoda needed to do is what he did with Luke and that did far more good than what he and Obi-wan could have attempted.

The Inquisitors still live.

The Republic didn't fall because of their position, but because of their arrogance and inability to change brought about their downfall.

Are we sure?

Take it up with Lucas, Kasdan, Ardnt and Abrams.

Why? Superman himself has said more than once that he cannot solve every problem. That it isn't his right to try because it results in resentment. See "Why Must There Be A Superman?" and "Camelot Falls". The first and fourth films dealt with that very topic when Jor-El said that it was forbidden to interfere and later, he is faced with that moral dilemma in the fourth film.

Superman helps people, but he doesn't help everywhere. He cannot end world hunger. He cannot cure all diseases. He cannot topple dictators. He cannot violate due process because he doesn't like Lex. He cannot destroy weapons of mass destruction just on a whim.

As to the Jedi, they lend hands where they are wanted and needed. Everyone else is left to their own devices.

Palpatine's plan was in place along before he found out that the boy even existed. If Anakin rejected him, they'd fight and if he could, he'd kill the boy and move on. He didn't need him to lead the Temple assault, that was going to happen with Dooku at the command. Order 66 didn't require Vader. He just added to it and it was a giant middle finger.

Do note that he died, right afterwards.

You should probably relocate to the 7NSA forums, because it's going to get worse in terms of spoilers and I make reference to spoilers. Especially once they start to become confirmed. There's no way you can avoid being even remotely spoiler free if you keep posting in here. I saw that in my days in the AOTC and ROTS forums.

This becomes a debate about free will vs destiny. Some will say that our fates are already decided and that even if we think we have a say, we really don't because our fate was already decided.

There's a right and a wrong when it comes to sacrifice. Going to Bespin wasn't necessary because he risked falling to the dark side, or being killed. That's why their sacrifice was more important than his. He is more important because he's the last Jedi. Leia even tells Luke that it's a trap that he's walking into, hoping that he would turn around and leave them. As Obi-wan said to Yoda, he would sacrifice Yoda if it meant that the war could end tomorrow. Yoda, in his training, was willing to sacrifice himself so that Anakin could survive and fulfill his destiny. Anakin was loyal too much to people and not to principles and ideals. Luke needed to understand that which he ultimately does.

He didn't know what he looked like.

Yoda will teach him. Thus he knew that he could sacrifice himself so that Luke could leave with Leia and Artoo. If he could make it to the Falcon, that was fine. But he also knew that his destiny would end with Vader.

Training with kids is different from training teenagers and adults. Especially when he has never done that before.

That's not relevant. What is was that he was given his task and he refused to do it. Then he chooses to do so because he comes to realize that he has to. The reasons beyond avoiding his father don't matter. If he knew that Vader would be there, he wouldn't have gone. By his own words.

LUKE: "I'm endangering the mission, I shouldn't have come."

"It's about a young boy leaving his world and going off into the unknown, to a great adventure. [...] Star Wars, carries that story on to what happens after you leave and in this particular case, there's a slightly more classic edge to it, in that the fates are there to kind of help Luke realize that, in certain cases you don't have choices. You know, if you choose not to fight evil, eventually it'll just push you up into the wall and you just don't have a choice. It's an inevitability that you can't escape from. And in this particular case, he torn between what he really wants to do; which is go off and join the academy and fight for the Rebellion and have excitement; but then he's also committed to helping his uncle, and to help his uncle build his farm, and his uncle's raised him, he's like his father, and he has his obligations to help put the homestead together.

It's very clear from the beginning here, that Luke's fate, even when the aunt and uncle are talking, is not to stay on the farm. A future that's just not in him, his destiny lies in a grander scheme of things. Even they know that. I mean they know it for other reasons, that we don't know about yet."

--George Lucas, ANH DVD Commentary

Because if Han does die in this first film, it will be in the line of duty and it will be a sacrifice in doing so. Most likely to protect Luke and Leia, just as he was wiling to do on Cloud City and again at Endor.

 

I would be fine with that but prefer it to be episode 9

 

Yes I know

darth-sinister

I'll read it properly as soon as I can, but we are getting fairly out of control

 

@death-sinister - when I posted my full response it was crazy long and the quotes went a bit insane (one word per line)

I was thinking of posting it in sections but the mods don't like multiple posts - what should I do? I think we should take one topic at a time rather than all at once - the current state is too time consuming.What say you?

 

It comes from the RoTS novel:

He spoke softly, but not to himself.
Though no-one was with him, he was not alone.
"My failure, this was. Failed the Jedi, I did."
He spoke to the Force.
And the Force answered him. Do not blame yourself, my old friend.
As it sometimes had these past thirteen years, when the Force spoke to him, it spoke in the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn.
"Too old I was. "Yoda said. "Too rigid. Too arrogant to see that the old way is not the only way. These Jedi, I trained to become the Jedi who had trained me, long centuries ago- but those ancient Jedi, of a different time they were. Changed, has the galaxy. Changed, the Order did not- because let it change, I did not."
More easily said than done, my friend.
"An infinite mystery is the Force." Yoda lifted his head and turned his gaze out into the wheel of stars. "Much to learn, there still is."
And you will have time to learn it.
"Infinite knowledge..." Yoda shook his head. "Infinite time, does that require."
With my help, you can learn to join with the Force, yet retain consciousness. You can join your light to it forever, Perhaps in time, even your physical self.
Yoda did not move. "Eternal life..."
The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they can never achieve it; it comes only by the release of self, not the exaltation of self. It comes through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to the darkness.
"Become one with the Force, yet influence still to have..." Yoda mused. "A power greater than all, it is."
It cannot be granted; it can only be taught. It is yours to learn, if you wish it.
Slowly, Yoda nodded. "A very great Jedi Master you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. A very great Jedi Master you always were, but too blind I was to see it."
He rose, and folded his hands before him, and inclined his head in the Jedi bow of respect.
The bow of the student, in the presence of the Master.
"Your apprentice, I gratefully become."

 

Iron_lord,

Yoda blames himself out of guilt

Qui-Gon (and would I be right in saying he is speaking on the Force's behalf?) tells him not to blame himself, i.e. It isn't his fault

Not "letting" it change is not "blocking" change - but I think only darth-sinister knows what he meant.

 

Yes, Yoda feels guilty. And going by what Stover says about the Jedi in Star Wars on Trial, Stover likely feels Yoda is right to feel guilty.

 

Well, Stover is wrong - Qui-Gon says so

 

The guilt is born from his failures, not his being a survivor. Qui-gon saying, "Do not blame yourself" doesn't mean that he doesn't think it is his fault. He's trying to not be a dick.

 

To be honest, Luke would be well within his rights to not want to start another Jedi Order.

Seems to me that training 10-50+ more people to be Jedi Masters is just begging for one or two of them to turn to the Dark Side and your whole Sith cycle restarts itself.

What's the need for the Jedi anyway? With the Emperor and Vader dead, perhaps Luke ascertains that they aren't needed. And he would have a point.

 

If the new rumors are true , he'll have at least one apprentice. His apprentice would likely be a full fledged Jedi by the time VII, so maybe he'll have an apprentice too (or find one in Daisy's character?) , who knows.

 

Hogsquattle and Darth Sinister need to get a room.

 

If Luke was worried, he would have tossed his saber into the bog and give Yoda and Obi-wan the finger. Or at least done this...



But seriously, this didn't stop the Jedi a thousand years back. The possibility of Jedi falling is always a reality. Luke understands that. He has not only his father, but his own example. But living in fear, which is not the Jedi way, is counterproductive.

The Jedi were needed when the Sith were thought dead a thousand years ago, while Darth Bane was in hiding. Before the Sith existed, the Jedi had a purpose.

OBI-WAN: "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire."

 

Even without the Jedi there are Force sensitives, and the potential exists for them to be both unintentionally and intentionally dangerous. In existing material there are examples of the Order assuming responsibility for preventing the former through training and the latter through more active measures. That doesn't really change because the Sith line has been ended (for now). The Jedi, therefore, still have a role even if the Republic doesn't want to employ them as official guardians/peacekeepers as they had in millennia past. For Luke to shrug it off as "not my problem" is out of character IMO.

Personally, my hope was that Luke was training new Jedi soon after RotJ, and that by VII he had maybe 6-10 current and former apprentices. A disagreement within this group about what their role should actually be was, to me, a logical element in rebuilding the Order and would have made for a source of conflict that could spawn a new line of Dark Side villains without having to invent more "Sith but not Sith" from the PT-OT era. /shrug

 

Can't - the room got full of words.

That is without a doubt the most ridiculous thing I've read in some time

Plus, that is profanity, is it not?

Regarding the very, very long discussion between us - I can't post my full response as it is crazy long and something wrong with the quoting in the post.

I'll have to respond by splitting my answer up into smaller sections.

So, I'll start that tomorrow night.

 

Or not at all.

 

Why? You aren't quitting are you?

And you should tag or quote - I only know you answered because someone else pointed it out.

 

I don't think he should change much every grand jedi master can never get it right.

 

Sorry for the delay - ’tis terrible when the real world gets in the way of this

I didn’t say the Council was ineffective - simply that they didn’t have the wherewithall to see past Dooku’s facade - that wasn’t anything to do with diminishing Force powers - Force users can’t always sense each other, let alone Sith - it is simply that they didn’t see it.

I didn’t mean two Jedi sitting in judgement on another - two friends calling to see you to talk through a problem isn’t the same as standing before a tribunal - and if two to three minds are the same as twelve then there is no reason why 12 are better

“By that rationale, there's no reason that a lack of one is superior” - that is what I said and I said it few times over the thread.
Wanting to see something different is a good thing - however it doesn’t make sense for Luke to rebuild the same organisation again - you said yourself it was flawed.

A harsh attitude, but yes, the consequences of her actions.

Based on what?

My statement was a response to your comment “The people didn't question because they knew that the Jedi didn't act recklessly and without good reason” - this was a blanket statement that all the patrons in the bar believed this - I asked you how you knew this? Responding with a question is like avoiding giving an answer.

Are the Jedi universally loved?
Does everyone hate them?
Does everyone respect them? Fear them?

The Force doesn’t corrupt.
And Anakin butchering the Tusken children wasn’t “blurring the lines” - it was murder. Killing the adults was murder too, but who would blame him.
Killing Dooku was murder too.
Yes, he convinced himself he was in the right but he “blur the lines” - it was more severe than that.

That doesn’t mean they should limit the amount of people they can try to help - the more people they help the better the galaxy.

Yes, I was just pointing out the fact.

What do you mean?

Your example of the execution of foreigners really doesn’t help the argument in favour of the Jedi swearing allegiance to one political power.

Not always.

How about when the law convicts an innocent man?

Or allows a guilty man to go free on a legal technicality?


Law and justice are not always the same thing.

 

Do you think we'll see children being trained in Luke's Jedi Order?

 

No.
If anything, I suspect Luke's apprentice will rebuild any Jedi Order.

 

Nope. The trained from birth thing is often seen as brainwashing.