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Saga Luke vs Rey - Supercharged Heroes

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by PadawanGussin, Jan 28, 2018.

  1. PadawanGussin

    PadawanGussin Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 6, 2017
    Much has been discussed and debated over Reys supercharged powers as compared to others n the Star Wars universe.

    But , in some ways, a case could be made for Luke's development to have been very powerful without much, or any training.

    Luke was born to a mother who was not Force sensitive. And unlike Anakin and perhaps Rey, He was not a virgin birth of the Force itself.

    And yet -

    At a young age he was -

    a very accomplished piolet weaving thru Beggar's canyon at high speeds.

    able to accurately target small moving targets while flying (womp rats)

    Able to use military grade assault weapons on the Death Star

    use a hook and lasso and swing to safety while holding Leia

    piolet an advanced military grade fighter craft.

    Engage , dogfight and destroy seasoned Imperial piolets

    maneuver down a tight trench at high speeds, a move questioned by more seasoned flyers.

    evade Darth Vaders attempts to shoot him down

    Fly his x wing while damaged without the assistance of R2 who had been hit by Vaders laser

    blow up the Death Star without computer aid

    pull his lightsaber to him after being knocked out by the Wampa on Hoth. He must have had a pretty bad head injury from the wampas blow.

    survive frigid cold until found by Han

    And after a short period of training -

    while on Bespin , startle Vader by both controlling his fear and by the leap out of the carbonite chamber

    survive a long fall

    connect with Leia after being seriously injured and literally hanging on for his life under Cloud City

    To me this seems equally as over powered as some people think Rey is in the ST.
     
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  2. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Or "soupercharged". Maybe Rey ate lots of midi clorian rich soup.
     
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  3. DBPirate

    DBPirate Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2015
    Luke is a descendant of the Chosen One so it’s not surprising he’s fairly skilled in the Force. Luke and Leia are also Force-sensitive siblings so I doubt having some sort of long distance talk is that impressive a feat. Even then, he receives guidance from Obi-Wan and at least a few weeks of training from Yoda.

    He also loses to Vader in TESB and almost gives into the Dark Side in ROTJ. He’s reckless and impulsive and ignores Leia’s warning of “it’s a trap” when he goes to confront Vader. I think it’s safe to say Rey has a slightly better track record when it comes to Force abilities and her overall luck.
     
  4. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Forgetting the dubious prophecy, what's important is that Anakin was conceived by the Force itself. Perhaps Rey was too. TLJ did not tell us that Rey was nobody, just that her parents were. Anakin was seemingly a nobody too, with a slave mother. The key was his extraordinary birth. IMO given Anakin's abilities at 9 years old, if he grew to adulthood even without any training he'd be at least as formidable as Rey is in the ST. Able to pick up Force abilities quickly, extremely skilled at fighting etc. It all tracks perfectly fine with me, but I think in IX someone (maybe ghost Luke or Yoda) needs to reveal that Rey, like Anakin before her was created by the Force. To me all problems are then solved.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
  5. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    I don't see how. Most of your examples regarding Luke are not necessarily extraordinary (in-universe). You may attribute all of it to the Force, the same way Han's piloting talent is. But there's a difference between being in tune with the Force (wether one knows it or not) and doing particular feats that require specific knowledge or training. Mind tricking people, for example. Or using a lightsaber effectively and efficiently. You don't see Anakin or Luke doing anything of the sort before they were introduced to the Jedi and their ways. Yet Rey manages to do all that without any explanation whatsoever. Before TLJ, people used to say that she may have been trained but she had some sort of amnesia or that it would be explained in the next movie. None of those excuses were true.
     
  6. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    What's your point? He had 10+ years flight experience with an Incom T-16 Skyhopper and canyons before boarding an Incom T-65 X-Wing. Biggs told Dave (Red Leader) that Luke was the "best bush pilot in the Outer Rim", obviously because of extensive training.

    He used Imperial blaster rifles on the Death Star, he had been using rifles on Tatooine and obviously had been trained to do that in case his Uncle would have been incapacitated (Biggs at Toshi Station: "Your uncle could hold off a whole colony of Sandpeople with one blaster.").

    Obi-Wan told him to use the Force and Luke did, thus he accomplished these feats (Artoo had been damaged but I'm not aware of any X-Wing defects at this point in time).
     
  7. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    None of the movies confirm or provide an explanation that this is the case.
     
  8. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Knowing that the Force can have a strong influence on the weak minded doesn't require knowledge? A technique that is established to be a trademark of the Jedi, doesn't require Jedi training? Whatever...
     
  9. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Awareness of it as a thing isn't the same.

    If that truly is your sticking point though, Kylo announces that he's about to perform it and then demonstrates the mind trick in the most intimate way possible. Left with no other choice, Rey uses the experience on her guard.

    And it's hardly a secret either. Even in non-republic Tatooine, where Jedi never go, Watto asks "What you think you are? Some kind of Jedi waving your hand like that?..."

    It is established as a property of the force that can be wielded by those sensitive to it on those too weak minded to realize. Such individuals are normally recruited to become Jedi in order to use the force ethically and for the good of society and not for personal gain. It's not the magic circle.

    Anyway. You're complaint was that things that were supposedly "explained" in the past are being violated or bypassed in ways that are not being explained now. But now you are complaining that the "explanations" aren't explanations at all but assumptions that everyone should make.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  10. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    How do you know it’s a technique that requires training? The two young Jedi we saw in the OT & PT, who both received some training on screen were never shown receiving a mind trick lesson. Yet they both possessed that ability. What would a lesson consist of anyway? Wandering around & manipulating some weak minded fools?
     
  11. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Indeed, it isn't.

    Nobody said it's a secret that they exist. Knowing that Jedi perform mind tricks and being able to perform one on the fly with no training whatsoever are two different things. And being subjected to one (if one even considers that example as a mere mind trick) doesn't teach one how to do it either, nor to whom does it apply.

    Yes, things are currently being done with no plausible explanation whatsoever.

    ?!
     
  12. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    So you admit shifting goalposts from knowing how to do something to knowledge of something's existence. Even though Rey does receive the knowledge of the mind trick's existence .

    Specific training of a specified length prior to performing a mind trick. Which movie was that explained in before? You're simply making an assumption. And you implied that you must be a Jedi to know that a mind trick is possible. It's "Jedi knowledge".

    How do you know that being subjected to a mind trick by someone who is trying to impose their will on you isn't the same as gaining the knowledge of how to do it someone else?



    They are only implausible in the context of your certainty about your own personal assumptions about things which have never been "explained" or confirmed. You're asking for explanations as to why your voluntary suppositions and pre-empting of the narrative are no longer supported by the actual story.

    The only thing you know about mind tricks is that "the force can have a profound effect on the weak minded".... It's time to stop pretending you know more than that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
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  13. PadawanGussin

    PadawanGussin Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 6, 2017
    Respectfully -

    IMO - From people I know that have served in the military, there can be a huge difference in the use of a weapon in the home for hunting etc and the use of an assault weapon in a combat situation. I do agree however that Luke certainly had some training in the use of a rifle.

    Luke had requested that R2 work on "the stabilizer that broke loose" after his x wing had taken damage from a laser. While a good piolet, there is a difference between tooling around in a non military craft and dogfighting in a damaged, perhaps unstable, fighter against seasoned flyers. I suspect that Biggs encouraging words were more to pysh Luke up for a desperate battle than anything else.
     
  14. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    ...and probably a "blaster"? Biggs mentioning of Luke's uncle being capable of holding off "a whole colony" of Sandpeople with just one blaster could suggest another weapon in the Lars household.

    I would find it rather unlikely that the (hunting?) rifle Luke took with him during his search for Artoo was the only weapon they had. It would have left Lars Homestead unprotected. And if there was another blaster, Luke most likely was trained how to use it in case of a Sandpeople attack.

    https://www.pinterest.de/pin/465630048946658119/
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  15. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    I didn't shift any goalposts, you're the one arguing strawmen. I always argued from the beginning that she does something without knowledge or training. Knowledge on how to do it and when to do it, not hearing about its existence.

    It is Jedi knowledge. It's a Jedi technique. It's particularly associated to the Jedi. Jedi do it. Jabba and Watto tie it to them, specifically.

    Precisely because it's being subjected to it. You're receiving someone's intent (wether you end up being influenced on said intent or not is irrelevant), not how-to knowledge on how to do it to others. Unless the intent was to pass that knowledge. But then again, you wouldn't actually have the knowledge. You would have been tricked.

    It's not an assumption. It was explained (see ANH). And it's precisely because it was explained that I'm questioned how did she got the knowledge on how to do it without being taught or explained how.

    Logical conclusions, not "voluntary suppositions".

    And that Jedi do it and are trained to be capable of doing it. And I know that because I've seen the movies. Rey hasn't seen the movies. In-universe hearsay is limited to "Jedi mind trick". How did she manage to do it and be successful at it? The same way she managed to hold her own with a lightsaber. Contrived convenience, not logical premises.

    Are you actually implying that the training they received is exclusively what you actually see on screen? Seriously? And it requires training because being a Jedi and doing what Jedi do requires training. You don't get to be a Jedi and do Jedi stuff by mere will or wannabe mentality.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  16. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Ahem.
    Sounds like common knowledge to me. Jabba and Watto aren't Jedi yet they know that it's the Jedi (a community of force users) that influence the weak minded in this way. That 's the same as knowing that it's a "using the force to influence a weak minded person trick".


    That's like saying if someone challenged you to a game and told you to place your elbow on a desk, clasp hands and then forced your arm over flat against the desk, that it doesn't mean you would know how to arm wrestle from that moment on.

    Should be simple enough to quote from ANH the explanation of the minimum amount of time and the nature of the training required to perform a specific force trick.

    Kylo just used the force on her to try and force her to do his will. Her need is such that she is forced to attempt to use the force she feels flowing through her to that same effect on the guard. There is no specific knowledge explained or invoked anywhere ever except that it's the force and it can influence minds.


    That's the kind of logic where if you've seen one or two swans in your life and they were white, you conclude that swans are white.

    Or if you haven't seen someone in five years because they went to college in England, and they now drink tea instead of coffee, then it must take five years to acquire a taste for or the knowledge of how to make tea.

    The Jedi are a community. Their training is about personal development. Nowhere is it explained that specific formal, procedural training of any minimum specific length is required before an individual can exploit their force potential for specific tricks.

    There is nothing in the films that dictates any material or quantitative values to training in relation to specific powers that the force gives those that are sensitive to it. The timescales of achieving rank and position in the Jedi order are purely the concern of that order and their chosen ideology. The force and the Jedi are two entirely separate things. There is no material link between Jedi policy and the properties of the force.

    All the movies tells us about the force is

    The force can obey your commands and control your actions

    Successful use of the force is character as "acting on instinct"

    Listening to the force you feel flowing through you will guide you.

    There is no trying. It is a case of do or don't. And the key to that is whether you believe it or not.

    What the movies show us about the force and about Rey does not materially affect anything you been show before about force use. It only offends the unnecessary conclusions which you chose to draw (fan fiction, in a sense) about the force from the conditions placed on individuals wishing to progress within the Jedi order as a society. You are mistakenly assuming that the conditions designed in order to keep a community of force sensitives together and in order are the actual properties of a magical force.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  17. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd The Man / Also Known as Bazinga'd star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Editing thread title, as I think there is a typo in in.
     
  18. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    There still is. [face_tee_hee]
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018