Luke's Absolutes

Only a Sith deals in absolutes:


"You can either profit from this, or by destroyed."

"Jabba... this is your last chance. Free us or die."



I'm sure there's others...

 

he also say to jabba to not underestimate his power which is the same thing anankin say to ob1 right before he gets his arm and legs sliced off

 

Yes but ultimately comes to the realization that there are no absolutes in life at the end of RotJ by simply making the choice not to kill his father.

 

obi-wan's decree that luke must destroy vader is rather an absolute. and it would seem that luke's "bargaining" postures with the hutt were validated.

 

Edit: nevermind, I misread the topic.

You're right, to a point. However, Luke also gave Jabba a chance to peacefully settle things before taking action. Anakin (and the Sith), on the other hand, kill first and ask questions later. There's no room for a gray area in what they do.

 

Neither indeed for the Jedi-to do otherwise leads to the Darkside .

Plus, it can be argued that Luke's postering was just a ploy meant to use Jabba's arrogance against him. Also, any fanboy will tell you that Luke, at least according to Yoda, was not yet a Jedi at that point.

I disagree with Ousley to a point. Ultimately, the Jedi do deal in absolutes as do the Sith. Sure, the Jedi can bargain, use diplomacy, and see different sides to an issue but so too can the Sith-both done to get each respective side's own ends.


Ciou-See the Sig

 

Well, I was speaking for Luke, not the Jedi. I do agree that often times the Jedi deal in absolutes.

 

Isnt saying only a sith deals in absolutes an absolute in itself. And Obi Wan saying Luke needs to destroy vader is kinda one too.

 

I think that the primary type of absolutes Obi-Wan's talking about is the with me/against me/no middle ground, more so than other types.

However, the Jedi do deal in absolutes of their own quite a bit.

 

Speaking in absolutes != dealing in absolutes.

 

Also, do you think it would be very intimidating if Luke told Jabba, "Free us or I might hurt you"? I don't think Luke was dealing in absolutes in Jabba's palace, he just knew that in order to make a point he had to talk in a menacing way.

 

Does a Jedi need to intimidate?

Thus says Master Yoda: "A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense... never for attack."

 

The sith actually seem to be moral relatavists: whatevere works, there is no such thing as evil, etc.

The Jedi are super rigid in their beliefs of absolute good and evil. For instance what if attacking in a particular situation as opposed to defending was for the greter good? They can't see the grey.

 

maybe he hasn't been told that... and his nature is as it is..

 

Absolute
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English absolut, from Latin absolutus

Having no restriction, exception, or qualification. An absolute term denotes a property that a thing either can or cannot have. Such terms include absolute itself, chief, complete, perfect, prime, unique, and mathematical terms such as equal and parallel. By strict logic, absolute terms cannot be compared, as by more and most, or used with an intensive modifier, such as very or so. Something either is complete or it isn't?it cannot be more complete than something else. Consequently, sentences such as He wanted to make his record collection more complete, and You can improve the sketch by making the lines more perpendicular, are often criticized as illogical. ?Such criticism confuses pure logic or a mathematical ideal with the rough approximations that are frequently needed in ordinary language. Certainly in some contexts we should use words strictly logically; otherwise teaching mathematics would be impossible. But we often think in terms of a scale or continuum rather than in clearly marked either/or categories. Thus, we may think of a statement as either logically true or false, but we also know that there are degrees of truthfulness and falsehood. Similarly, there may be degrees of completeness to a record collection, and some lines may be more perpendicular?that is, they may more nearly approximate mathematical perpendicularity?than other lines. ?Accordingly, the objection to modification of an absolute term like parallel by degree seems absurd when it is used metaphorically, as in The difficulties faced by the Republicans are quite parallel to those that confronted the Democrats four years ago. This statement describes the structural correspondence between two distinct situations, and concerns about the possibility of intersection seem remote indeed. In this sense, parallelism is clearly a matter of degree, so one should not hesistate to modify parallel accordingly.

Choice
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English chois, from Old French, from choisir to choose, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German kiosan to choose -- more at CHOOSE

1 : the act of choosing : SELECTION
2 : power of choosing : OPTION
3 a : the best part : CREAM b : a person or thing chosen
4 : a sufficient number and variety to choose among
5 : care in selecting
synonyms CHOICE, OPTION, ALTERNATIVE, PREFERENCE, SELECTION, ELECTION mean the act or opportunity of choosing or the thing chosen. CHOICE suggests the opportunity or privilege of choosing freely <freedom of choice>. OPTION implies a power to choose that is specifically granted or guaranteed <the option of paying now or later>. ALTERNATIVE implies a necessity to choose one and reject another possibility <equally attractive alternatives>. PREFERENCE suggests the guidance of choice by one's judgment or predilections <a preference for cool weather>. SELECTION implies a wide range of choice <a varied selection of furniture>. ELECTION implies an end or purpose which requires exercise of judgment <doing a tax return forces certain elections on you>.

 

I posted this thread a while back...check it out. It pretty much pertains to this subject.

Luke Un-Jedi Like

 

Obi-Wan speaks and thinks in absolutes all the time. That's just one of many reasons he isn't much of a Jedi. None of them really got it right until late-RotJ Luke, IMO.

Jedi are also supposed to have compassion, so what does it tell you that Obi-Wan was the one pushing for Luke to kill Vader and Luke was the one saying it was important not to give up faith?

Obi-Wan = "idiot man-child." (TM)

 

"Do or do not" is not AN absolute its a choice, "...either profit from this or be distroyed" is a choice.

"If your not with me your my enermy!" is a statement of an absolute in AS/DV mind.

Please see deffinitions above.

 

I think we need to realize the context in which Obi-Wan spoke to Anakin in Episode III ... Anakin tells Obi-Wan: "Either you're with ME" -- meaning Palpatine and the newly chrisened GALACTIC EMPIRE -- "or you're Against ME"
Obi-Wan was obviously against The Evil GALACTIC EMPIRE, but that doesn't mean he was against Anakin ... in fact, Obi-Wan didn't want to hurt Anakin at all ... he wanted Sidious, it was Yoda who forced his hand ... Obi-Wan says, "Only a SITH deals in absolutes. I will do what I must," to show Anakin the contrast between SITH and JEDI and that Obi-Wan still cares for Anakin ... unlike Anakin believes, Obi-Wan didn't come to kill him as Yoda perhaps wanted, but to confront him, and save him if at all possible ...

As far as Luke, we must remember that both Father and Son Skywalker are meant to walk eriely similar paths, and Luke in ROTJ is border line darkside up to the point where he refuses to join the Emperor, like Anakin in ROTS, who was border line darkside up until he joined the Emperor in the line of the Sith ... besides speaking in absolutes, Luke dressed in black cloaks, forced choked Jabba's guards, and attempted to kill the unarmed and defenseless Palpatine, a blow Vader's saber blocked ...

 

He was just giving the slug a chance to profit off the situation and not die.

He wants to avoid fighting,and if money's involved,well, Luke's not cheap. He likes his power converters from the Toshi station

 

A Sith would not have bargained with Jabba for Vader's release, instead attacking and destroying him and getting what he wants.

what did you expect him to say: bargain with me, or something bad may happen?

giving someone an ultimatum is not the same as dealing in absolutes.

what next, if Luke is at a restaurant and asks if the stew comes with onions, when asked why says: "if it has onions, I don't want it" Is this dealing in "absolutes"

in the end, Luke sets himself out as providing an option not anticipated by yoda or Obi-wan: turning Vader away from the dark side

and is it not Vader's providing the option of turning luke instead of killing him that allowed it to take place